GJDriessen GJDriessen

MOO3 = FUN

Although most people dispise Moo3, Brady Hammond loves it. Read his remarkable review of the game and judge yourself. Please let me know what you think about it!

link: http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1089
134,782 views 51 replies
Reply #26 Top
MOO1 is really good, simple, but good. Tho the limit of 5 ship designs is a bit annoying...
Reply #27 Top
Tho the limit of 5 ship designs is a bit annoying...


The limited ship designs added to the strategy because you couldn't just design a new ship every time you had a new tech available.

And who is to say that this is "unrealistic?" In the real world, it costs many billions of dollars to develop a new combat aircraft or ship, so we are also limited to how many designs can exist at once.
Reply #28 Top
Find these people and remind them how much they suck.

http://moo3.quicksilver.com/about/team.html

MOO2 will remain the best 4X game until somebody actually listen and develops a game JUST like MOO2 with better AI, graphics, tactical, etc.

MOO2 is like a cheeseburger. It’ a classic and its yummy. Why can't someone make a better cheeseburger with better meat, cheese, and buns? Is it too hard to ask? MOO4 anyone?
Reply #29 Top
I only liked the land battles, the space part was like a maze and it was as ugly.

by the way, I think the next add-on to GalCiv2 should have ground combat like MOO3
Reply #30 Top
MoO 3 was the worst game EVER made. I gave it some serious serious consideration. Playign/quiting and comming back to it. I found it barely playable, buggy and just retarded. Overload of useless information and the way production was handled was the pits. I hate all kind of bar setting spening (Much like in moo the original, that bother the hell out of me too!) and of course that doesn't make me a fan of gal civ sliders but atleast ti's implemented straight forward.

Everything about that game was WORSE than moo2 (Even the frikin graphics!) and so complicated it made moo1 look genius-like in its implementation. Honsetly I don't thinkt hose guys knew what people wanted.

Reply #31 Top
Each to their own indeed...

Despite the effort put in by the development team of MoO3, they made mincemeat with the original MoO and MoO2 concepts, slashing races, ship design option, naming star systems, introduction of stupid space lanes ("For strategic choke points!" ) and the like.
The result was a complex and macro-mathematical game with poor graphics -even worse than MoO2 that was so much fun I didn't even care about the graphics- and a remote kind of feel in which empires were just numbers and figures w/o any real feel to it. Your empire just didn't feel yours.
The designers were a bunch of enthousiasts from the former MoO titles and despite the effort, they weren't able to deliver the fun. I didn't sell my MoO3 copy, I gave it away.

Even after 10 years, MoO2 is, in my opinion, hands-down THE BEST Civ game ever. I still play it once in a while, but I'm kinda occupied with GalCiv2 right now. GalCiv2 is prime candidate to succeed MoO2 in replayability and I think that that is quite an achievement.
Reply #32 Top
Master of Orion 2 fans.Galactic Civilization 2 fans.You might be interested in the upcoming Space Empires 5 scheduled for release in stores and online in June 2006.(www.malfador.com)Malfador company is well known for the previous Space Empire titles bought online.Also renowned for continuing tech supprt/patches and unhinderd "modding".
Reply #33 Top
MoO 3 was the worst game EVER made. I gave it some serious serious consideration. Playign/quiting and comming back to it. I found it barely playable, buggy and just retarded. Overload of useless information and the way production was handled was the pits.


Hmm. Yes, it was bad. It wasn't the worst game I've played. I agree that it was a huge disappointment.

The thing is, it was pretty much guaranteed to be horrible from spring 2002, when InfoGrames fired the lead designer and half the development team, putting the art designer in charge of an extremely complicated game, with the majority of code having been written by people who are no longer working on it..

Frankly, the biggest suprise was that it was as good as it was.
Reply #34 Top
The box was nice and shiny and it had a great intro video. Sure after that it was all downhill, but did I mention how shiny the box was.
Reply #35 Top
Master of Orion 2 fans.Galactic Civilization 2 fans.You might be interested in the upcoming Space Empires 5 scheduled for release in stores and online in June 2006.(www.malfador.com)Malfador company is well known for the previous Space Empire titles bought online.Also renowned for continuing tech supprt/patches and unhinderd "modding".


And also known for not having any computer AI to speak of.
Reply #36 Top
I should mention that "MOO3 = FUN" will evaluate to true iff FUN!=0. However, "MOO3==FUN" will generally evaluate to false.
Reply #37 Top
MOO3 didn't really follow the formula of the previous two games and implemented a lot of interface enhancements that were occasionally pretty neat. It rendered the 4X genre in a fairly unique manner, really macroized (made more huge and simple) the whole thing.

Unfortunately this also meant the 'personality' of the 4X games was left in the dust. It was hard to actually care about any of your planets, I always just went to the colony list, filtered for Industry primary and Population secondary, chose the top 10 - 30 planets and had them churn out the newest model of ship every ten turns or so.

But in a way that's what was good about MOO3, you were an epic space commander, you could control hundreds of colonies and many thousands of ships. Unfortunately the game was riddled with bugs which after a few hundred turns would sort of screw up the proceedings, IE, an enemy empire or your own empire could have its budget get too high/low and it would 'flip'. Sometimes my yearly revenue would go from a few tens of thousands, to a few TRILLION for no apparent reason..

And it was also riddled with unfinished features. The AI would not and could not invade planets. Cloaking devices and most of the whole ECM/ECCM feature on ships did not work. And this is after the most recent patches. The patches did help, they added some features and fixes, but didn't fix the above. The patches did allow you to better track the population stats of various planets, and also tracked things like what species your soldiers were. This could make certain planets more unique and compelling because for instance their population might primarily be a different race which had better soldier stats than your imperial race.

All in all I'd say the AI in MOO3 was completely arbitrary and it didn't feel at all like playing with another human. Really all you had to worry about was alliances and whether your relations were in the + or -. You had to send a new trade/research deal every twenty turns or so but there wasn't really anything more compelling to do with them. They didn't care about the current situation, and didn't care about the overall course of the game and what was going on.

Also the tactical combat in MOO3 was very... twitchy. Pretty much each fight I'd have to in the first split second choose all my taskforces which had missile-launcher ships in them an click on an enemy taskforce; or else, they'd fire all their volleys of big huge ship-killing missiles at either incoming missiles or incoming fighters. Absolute, total waste of their firepower. Making my taskforce navigate was also a pain in the ass, somewhat easier when I panned the view up for a total top-down perspective, but still.. trying to move a fleet of 16 taskforces in a fight was just a cluster-F.

The auto battle in MOO3 was also quite screwy. With a massive force of my missile ships against a decent number of enemy short-range ships, there was a huge risk of either losing several or many of my ships (impossible if I played the fight myself), or enemies successfully retreating which otherwise never would have. In GalCiv III, I trust to get a decently consistent results based on the power of the respective fleets. There's some close fights, but my ships do their best and it works out fairly.

Also I put hundreds of hours into MOO3 but never finished a SINGLE game.. it was too huge and took too damn long, and eventually I'd kinda lose interest. This wasn't the case with MOO1 or MOO2, and that's not the case with GalCiv II. Those three games are decently paced such that eventually, I realize it's time to pack up and end the game already. To be honest the tech-tree doesn't seem all that long in GalCiv II .. but I don't think I've seen the end of it in any of the games I've played, so not =too= short perhaps.
Reply #38 Top

And also known for not having any computer AI to speak of.


Indeed. SE has some nice features, but the AI is... pointless.

Even with the various mods the AI was never worth the bother.

If you want a MP Space Conquest game, the SE series is probably your best bet (MOO2 was too unstable), but for a SP experience, don't bother, stick with GC2.

Of course I got bored of SEIV even on MP, but I'm not a big MP fan.
Reply #39 Top
(MOO2 was too unstable)


the win version of moo2, i.e. orion95.exe was pretty unstable and laggy like hell (up to minutes between turns). And I assume you tested this version.

The dos version, i.e. orion2.exe is pretty stable and 1v1 is playable up to 5ways (different continents). (And BTW 99% of all moo-cds contain both versions.)

There are 2 bugs you should know.
1. Dont touch autofactories on the planetoverview (thats a CTD for some videocards.)
2. Dont retreat from the left map edge in the tactical combat. Also CTD

When you know these 2 bugs you should play a game without any crash at all. There is even a new fanpatch for the dos-version: LordBrazens 1.4patch project. It fixed some bugs and adds some mod OPTIONS.

Details MP-setup kali:
Link

Details MP-setup hamachi or LAN:
Link

Details 1.4patch and some mods:
Link
Reply #40 Top
I would to read an interview with the developers of MOOIII just to see why they made the decisions they made.

Drag if you are in this thread, any insight into why their devs would ahve steered so far from the hoop on MOO3? They had a slam dunk at their finger tips and gave people instead a big WTF.

I would honestly be fascinated to read something by there Dev team on the directions they took on MOO3. Anyone have any such links?
Reply #41 Top
I tried really hard to like MOO3. I put thousands of hours into MOO2. Held weekend devouring LAN sessions playing MOO2. But MOO3 was like... well....

Playing Excel.

Just no way you can make that fun.
Reply #42 Top
In my opinion, what happened to MoO3 was simple in retrospect:

1) They set their sights high. Rather than a slightly touched up version of MoO2, they wanted to add totally new features that would add some new twists on gameplay. This in and of itself was not bad.
2) They then canned much of the development team, and the people that wound up in charge didn't understand the direction as well.
3) What was left either got thrown out or poorly implemented, because the people finishing it weren't the people that designed it.

Being a programmer, I can tell you that the combined factors of these adds up the same kind of indicator s a movie going through a dozen writers and rewrites, for much the same reason. I don't think of it as a failure of the programmers, any more than I think of the failure of the movie as being the writer's fault. I usually look for the reason that the programmers/writers got changed. Sometimes it's a bad premise, sometimes it's bad management, sometimes it really is bad programmers/writers getting replaced. However, the end result almost always suffers.
Reply #43 Top
So I guess I am the weirdest guy on the forum.

I like MOO3 alright, but I can't beat the AI, so I always lose.

The same thing happens on GalCiv2, so, I can't even faulot MOO3 for that.

I will go away now
Reply #44 Top
It was very radical idea.. macromanagement not micro.. loyal fans who played I & II definitely weren't ready for it, they were expecting a similar game, III was vastly different. Fans either initially hated it or gradually hated it. Giving it a chance before erasing off the hard drive. It was not fun to me, Understanding the economics practically took a degree to understand equations used. Fleet combat looked atrocious. I wonder if Stardock used that as an example of what it shouldn't be.. Same with the 3d map. Star lanes are maybe a cool idea.. but too much time wasted orienting the blasted map.

The patch took forever and a day. It fixed some bugs and the like, but in some eyes could never fix it enough to be a decent game for them.
Reply #45 Top

the win version of moo2, i.e. orion95.exe was pretty unstable and laggy like hell (up to minutes between turns). And I assume you tested this version.


Most likely. It was many years ago. Another guy and I would link our two computers together and play, but it would periodically crash.

But as I said, I'm not a huge MP fan, so I'm not inclined to go back and see if the DOS version is any more stable. Others might find the information useful though.

I'm personally not inclined to go back to MoO2 at all. I booted it up about two years ago, started to play, and then though "Nah, I've played this game enough".
Reply #46 Top

I would to read an interview with the developers of MOOIII just to see why they made the decisions they made.


Part of it is I beleive the fault of Alan Einrich (can't be bothered to check spelling).

He had a very 'unique' view of what the game should be. He created a game that he wanted, that met his ideal notions. It was however one of those things that appealed to only him.

I've had that happen. I come up with a concept, other people look at it and think I'm crazy. Its best to have others sanity check your ideas. It may seem great to you, but you may be alone in that view.

So anyway, he did a lot of development on this incredibly complex game, focusing on the macro level. My impression was that he wanted it to be 'realistic' that the player should be the emperor with little fine control, only gross control - the ability to dictate broad things, but not control the minute elements of it.

And then the publisher looked at it and went WTF!?

As was stated, at some point a lot of the dev team - including Alan - were shown the door. I beleive it was about the same time the publisher went 'WTF'.

They now had a big problem.

A lot of work had been done. They didn't want to throw it away and cancel the project. But they knew what they had wouldn't sell. They tried deperately to 'fix' it, but I think they were doomed from the start. The macro control model they were saddled with wasn't what most people would consider fun. Short of a total re-write, there was no way to change this. In the end all they could do is try to streamline it, maybe hand a little control back to the player.

Although it seems they failed at that too.

So - as was stated - with the original core developers that had created it gone, the notion of what they were trying to do (and how, and why) was gone. The people trying to re-write it couldn't do a complete rebuild, so they tried to take what was there and make it more approachable.

In the end, it was just a pile of garbage that as many have said simply required the player to hit the 'end turn' button periodically.

I can understand why A.E. tried to do what he did, but he should have also realized that while a cute idea, its not what the vast majority of people want. He should have rejected the idea quickly as simply 'not fun'.

Well, I guess a few like it, but they are a very small number.

When the publisher and management of the developer realized what they had, they should have just scrapped it. There was no hope at that point. Instead they tried to 'fix' it, but they didn't understand what it really was, let alone how to salvage it, so they ended up with an even bigger mess.
Reply #47 Top
MoO3 was meant to be:
1) The best of MoO1
2) The best of MoO2
3) Designed exclusively around MP, with SP being purely a trainer for MP
4) State of the art

See a problem here?

That MP is why in SP sucked so much. See, you were going to be an Emperor--- and only get 5 to 10 minutes, per turn, to do everything you want, enforced by the game itself.

All else flowed from that.

How do I know? I was a fan consultant. The Art Director, Lead Programmer, and Lead Dev were constantly over at our forums, discussing things.

The dictation from the publisher that MoO3 had to have killer MP was the critical killing requirement, from its inception.

Heck, you weren't even going to be allowed to custom design your own ships. Until we fanatically loyal ones pointed out that a MoO game without ship design was like drinking water without the H20. A complete and immediate fail. We also pointed out that if SP was complete crap and lacked any fun or playability, MoO3 would fail and they'd be hated forever, remembered as the team that destroyed MoO forever.

I cannot tell you everything that went on in the team, but I can tell you what went on before the Design Doc got created. They came by and spent several months talking to us about it. About what was the best parts of MoO 1 and 2, and what sucked. And they mined the Internet for all those fan wish lists, and then ran by a lot of their takes on the stuff.

They didn't stop talking to us until about the third baseline of the Design Doc, as I recall. Then they were too busy.

MP killed MoO3. But that is what the publisher demanded. A "real" MP game, rather then a sit and think game. The computer should do almost everything for you, and you just tell it to send stuff here or there.

Don't go blaming QS or their team for the horror. That horror was the demanded product of their publishers. Know your enemy, and know them well.
Reply #48 Top
Kato got it right, basically. The game even with ALL the current mods, is a waste of precious gaming hours and dollars. After MOO II, everyone was waiting for a worthy sequel. MOO II failed to deliver. In fact it was WORSE than nothing at all.
GalCiv II gives more of that MOO II feel...not that everyone wants that but if you yearn for MOO II you won't find it in MOO III.
One of the worst games ever made. And I wasted a year (on and off) trying to wring some fun out of it. Tried all the mods and tweaks. It stinks and I don't like it!
Reply #49 Top
MP killed MoO3. But that is what the publisher demanded. A "real" MP game, rather then a sit and think game.

Well, mebbe they had in mind to produce a "real" MP game. But lets point out here....even in MP it sucks hardcore. They simply failed everywhere. How do I know when I have never tried seriously? Well, I know several hardcore Moo3-Mp-Players. Even the top-ranked Ladder-Players. They came back to Moo2. Some of them told me that moo3-combat is broken, ie you cant have sufficient pd against a simple missile hit and run strategy. (And AFAIK there is no mod which has fixed it right now.) Also simple hit and run works against moo2 AI. True...but not in MP. The combat system is generally pretty well balanced.
Reply #50 Top
If anyone has Moo3 and still wants to play it. The modders and community have fixed most of the bugs in it.

But yes un-modded Moo3 is crap. I still can't believe there are people who enjoy it vannilla without any patches or mods.



INVADER-Mod
Link
Just the Patches
Link
Fan Mods
Link