They go through with an automated 3 stars on, the drive-by comes along and rates it 1 star - the rating goes to 1 star because the auto rating is overwritten.

This is one on the most common problems and since not all admins rate skins, the possibility of having a skin rated with enough weight to disregard the drive-by twits is near to none.
A couple of days ago I had to email Jafo when 2 mins after I uploaded a skin (and with no download count) it was granted a 1 star. If the rating would've stayed, the skin would have remained hidden and the purpose of loading it would've been lost.

Could you allow people to police comments on thier own uploads. Give the author the ability to delete comments on his own skins?

Why not let only skinners rate & comment on skins? I mean you guys know more about skinning than any driveby haters.

Admin Frogboy: We will never get rid of the rating system. There will always be some mechanism in which skins that people like better than others are distinguished.

As far as the rating system is concerned... there’s your answer.
It doesn't appear that the rating system is going to change.

^^Gabriel.. but is it worth dealing with the headaches, the insults

The real issue here was the negative comments being made and the rip accusations. A moderator should have stopped that quickly and the comments should be removed. If anyone believes that their work was plagiarized they should contact a site moderator or admin instead of posting a comment.

the rating goes to 1 star because the auto rating is overwritten.

Why is this allowed? I only comment or rate when I see something I really like. I would gladly give up this access if it meant that skinners wouldn't have to put up with the idiots. We all have to put up with enough of them in the real world. Still not a skinner, maybe someday. It takes enough time just to learn the programs you need let alone doing the actual skinning.

from my experience so far...it hasn't been rude comments that have gotten to me...it's the endless requests for different features (larger fonts, different color, compact start menu's) that never end. what i've come to find out is that you have to make something for yourself and understand that sharing it with others is just that...sharing. i think alot of us get caught up in making something that will get a good ratings and that others will like (making it for everyone but yourself) and lose sight of it being fun. users have to understand that these skins were not created simply for them and that either they take it or leave it for what it is. unfortunately i think alot of great creations get poor ratings because others are rating on the basis of their own tastes (isn't the color they like, doesn't have a feature they want). if you look at video game ratings...they base their ratings on graphic quality, playability, controlls, intuitiveness...etc. based on the individual ratings you get a blended score. you also find ratings by the site and user ratings in two different catagories. that almost seems to be more fair.

with all of the new features coming out it's becoming more and more difficult to make something worth while. more features equals higher user expectations of what artists are making for free for the love of making something worth sharing. and if what you create does not support those features, your work is considered sub-par. i think the new transparency features will severely limit what we can do down the road...there are only a few ways to utilize transparency. but again, users will expect this.

bottom line is that users need to understand that one of these works is not their own...you either need to use it and love it...or feel free to make your own.

there are only a few ways to utilize transparency. but again, users will expect this.

Oh no, there are MANY ways to get creative with this. People are just stuck inside the "glass box" This opens up alot more, you'll see.

i really hope it does open up and there are cool things that come out of it. i just hope it doesn't become a standard by which everything is measured and you start seeing comments like "yeah it's great and all but it doesn't have transparency so i won't use it". for some reason those are always the comments that bother me the most...the ones that say "your work is great but it doesn't have ______ "

Now that idea (Adept's) really makes sense. Many times you may look at a skin and think it is cool. But, when you use it, you may like it. And, the opposite is true. There may be a skin that looks so-so. But, when you download and use it, you fall in love with it.

Also, I am very much in favor of the artist being able to nix commnents...

Fuzzy may be right that only skinners should be allowed to rate. But, if this is done then, it could still happen that a very POPULAR skin might get rated down. You know, I also look at the number of downloads before I download. If new skin has several thousand downloads, it's a pretty good bet that it is going to be a hit.

Seems like there could be some kind of compromise that allows the artists to feel more comfortable to be creative.

This is one on the most common problems and since not all admins rate skins, the possibility of having a skin rated with enough weight to disregard the drive-by twits is near to none. A couple of days ago I had to email Jafo when 2 mins after I uploaded a skin (and with no download count) it was granted a 1 star. If the rating would've stayed, the skin would have remained hidden and the purpose of loading it would've been lost.

Yes. this is a 'problem' and one that is probably at the real root of all the complaint/s.

Since the Admins/mods are all experienced within the skinning community when they post a rating it's from a basis of experience and understanding, so by and large those whose works DO go through moderation are most likely to receive a valid rating 'opinion'.

However, those whose works are auto-approved are currently exposed to the 'idiot rater' and may suffer accordingly...[as above].

I think it's a simple thing to 'fix'....just give that 'auto 6' its own weight....afterall the person who has attained that level of access 'should' be seen as responsible enough to be submitting works of a reasonable standard....that 'should' be publicly visible to all.

Ratings should ONLY be by 'peers'.....people promoted beyond 'citizen' through experience and skinning contribution, NOT through spending a few quid and 'buying the right'.

Comments should be made optional....each skin submission could be set with 'accept all comments', or 'peer only'.  The latter may mean fewer comments but they will be from the more 'experienced end of the world' and therefore may be more desirable/valid.

A rating system NEEDS to stay....but I'm sure there's some scope for adjustment.

Not every skinner is thick-skinned.  Some just laugh about twit-comments, others are actually hurt by them.

The Number One aim of whatever is done SHOULD be to promote, aid and abet the Skinner.

Wincustomize.com is a "Skinning Site" and therefore its Skinners/Contributors should be placed first within the food chain....a significant distance ABOVE the 'general user/abuser' or even paid-up member.

Just a reminder, though.....anyone having 'grief' from comments, etc....I'm here....

One possible solution to the problem would be to have users download first, comment second and rate third in that specific order (if they try to rate before a download or comment, it would not accept the rating), and show the rating given on the comment left. People will think twice before granting a malicious rating to a skin. This will keep users honest and skinners happier. The ability to control who comments on the skins is a great idea too. This will take away some of stress on the admins/mods that have to deal with many emails concerning improper comments.

I agree whole heartedly with this statement/idea. I'm just one of the people that "bought" my right to rate (I'm a subscriber), but I don't know enough about the mechanics of skinning to rate someone's work, so I don't do it. I don't think that just because I'm a subscriber I should have this priviledge, either. Skinning is way more than just slapping some graphics into a template and calling it good...and I don't have that talent and I sure don't want to see those that have the ability and desire to use that talent dissapear from this wonderful playground (where all the kids get to share in the Jell-o)! Please, Brad, take the above suggestion/idea to heart and change the current system before those of us who do subscribe won't bother to do it again because there's just nothing/no one submitting anything that we can download.
Just a lowly subscriber (but proud of it),
DD

Just a reminder, though.....anyone having 'grief' from comments, etc....I'm here..

As am I.

Why is this allowed? I only comment or rate when I see something I really like. I would gladly give up this access if it meant that skinners wouldn't have to put up with the idiots.

Likewise....I'm not a skinner and see the ability to rate skins as a privelege, not a right.....and I believe anyone who constantly or repeatedly abuses this privelege should have it permanently revoked. I will only rate or comment on a skin that I've downloaded and applied first, but only then to show my gratitude and appreciation for the work that I'm unable to do myself. However, I would glady forego the ratings privelege to allow apprentice and above to rate skins, if it that's what it takes for greater harmony and skinners much happier to remain.

I also think the download, comment first idea has merit....as does the idea of a skinner being able to remove blatantly rude, arrogant and accusational comments.

I would glady forego the ratings privelege to allow apprentice and above to rate skins

Psst.. Starkers ...Check your profile, mate... You are an apprentice

I will only rate or comment on a skin that I've downloaded and applied first, but only then to show my gratitude and appreciation for the work that I'm unable to do myself.

And that, my friends ~is exactly how it should be done if you are not a skinner. Show your appreciation for the hard work put in to a skin.

If you don't particularly like the skin, say why you don't ~but tact and diplomacy are paramount. Common courtesy extended to your fellow site users/skinners/artists etc ..goes a helluva long way.

If you can't be respectful, then you shouldn't be here anyway.

My Mum always says: "If you ain't got something nice to say....." [etc]

I also think the download, comment first idea has merit

Yes, no one should be allowed to comment or rate something that they haven't downloaded. Comments do have their place though. I'm sure the skinners appreciate the thanks and good reviews and it is a way for people to report bugs and such. I don't think I would want to be inundated with emails about bugs, real or perceived. I have a question. Is anybody allowed to comment? Shareware, looky loos, pirates? If so, why?

I don't think the rating system is the main problem of all of this (thats its own thing and I've yet to see one that truely works right, but I do like the idea of app. and up doing it). We skinners make these things for free... bottom line, we get nothing from it except maybe some slight bragging rights. To get bashed for it is just insane, you don't like it... fine, don't use it. Think its a rip, then report it to an admin (which I've had to do even). I love the idea of either restricting comments with access levels set by the skinner themselves and/or being able to delete comments (maybe at least be able to report them to be deleted). Just my 2 cents... as far as the rating sys... I think the worst problem there is not the system at all but people rating on things other than the skins quality.

Psst.. Starkers ...Check your profile, mate... You are an apprentice

Well blow me down...now ain't that a surprise and a half!!!
Guess I had better go get me some tools an' a pair of overalls.....and should I pack a lunch

If you don't particularly like the skin, say why you don't ~but tact and diplomacy are paramount. Common courtesy extended to your fellow site users/skinners/artists etc ..goes a helluva long way.

Tact, diplomacy and common courtesy are of course important, but personally, I see no need to comment if a skin doesn't take my fancy, particularly upon first viewing. At one time or another, there have been skins that initially did not appeal to me, and I'd feel like a right hypocrite, having said 'I don't like it', only to later download it because it fits perfectly in a desktop I'm assembling.

My mum always says: "When in doubt, say nought."

Wow. Long thread, much said. I think that Frogboy has exactly the right idea. Skinners need to be able to say "I dont want any comments" and then not have to worry about it. They should also be able to specify: "I dont want any comments from non-skinners". That kind of thing... I think that would reallly help out alot.

I think one solution may be to have a place here on the forums where skinners can easily report this kind of thing and we moderators can jump in and take care of those people. I feel contempt for losers who have nothing better to do than to crap on people who share their hard work with the world.

There is a plan in progress for something like this on IRC. There will be a bit of an announcement if things work out well for it.

As for myself... I can honestly say that I dont look at my own ratings. At all. I dont look for abuse, so I dont see it. If people want to drive-by me, then I'll never notice... thats just my take on it. As for comments, I love them! Comments totally rock, and I love seeing comments from new people to the site, and the 'vets' that have seen so much other work. A pat on the back from them... man, what a boost!

Since I'm a Moderator here on the site now, I guess I get to see a little bit different side of things. More 'front line' protecting, regarding ratings and comment abuse, etc. If there was an easier way for someone to say "Man, I wish someone could take a look at this to see if its abuse", things might be better. Many solutions exist... its just a matter of finding one that will work the best, and implementing it. In the end, I dont think that that is an unreasonable goal. WinCustomize strives to maintain a positive outlook on the skinning community. To do that, a balance must be found between the good of the skinner and the 'freedom' of all the citizens to rate, comment, etc. Lines will need to be drawn, though, that determine who can rate/comment on certain skins. Goal: Skinners choose this, but they CANNOT choose to 'remove' certain comments. (i.e. censoring out improper comments is a worthy goal but not an achievable... removing ones that the skinner 'doesnt like' is not acceptable, and both are not mutually exclusive)

An 'optimised' community will always be the goal... happy skinners, happy users. Compromises must be made, since as soon as you 'remove' the ability to comment, then there will be many POSITIVE commenters lost in that transition as well. In the end, I think that its better to have MORE commenters on your skins than block user ranks due to a few bad apples. These are just my thoughts on the matter.

(P.S.... Gabe, you know I love that Xbox skin... been using it since 10 seconds after it was released! (first download, go me!) )

so overall, the question is: is uploading skins worth it?

that´s a question you have to answer for yourself. i for one have not uploaded quite a few things. the problem i have is not mean comments, ratings, download counts or that kind of stuff. that doesn´t bother me. i have a live.

my problem, believe it or not, were the nice people that kept flooding my mailbox with requests (can you make this color ..., that bar on the top ..., etc.) or even worse those thinking i was some kind of tech support (posting a screenshot of a console ends up with people wanting help for setting up PUTTY).

solution is posting things for less popular apps and cultivating an arrogant attitude. i prefer to have conversations in real life anyways.

skinning is still a lot of fun, just started playing with Konfabulator. great fun, i might even learn some javascript by.

Ever thought about removing the anonymity of the ratings? If your rating is there to see, in plain sight...by anyone and everyone...wouldn't that stop the malicious raters? You're not going to steal a TV from a store, if you see cameras all around.

Also, Frogboy mentioned only 1% of this site can rate skins...that's not a true average in my opinion. Let anyone who's registered, paying, non-paying, if they have an account...they can rate. This will get you a lot more rates, and more rates will mean a better true rating. Again, with ratings visible...no worries for a malicious one.

Then all we gotta worry about is the people who think their skins are greater than god, and deserve nothing but 10's...meanwhile, anyone who knows better...know's it's mediocre at best. I can see it now..."Citizen X, why did you give me 2 stars? ARE YOU CRAZY??!!! OMGWTFBBQ!"

Ok, maybe visible ratings is a bad idea. Instead, hide the name of the rater, and just show the individual ratings, (4,4,2,4,2) etc. People can police their own work, and see for themselves if there is a malicious rating or not.


----

Forgot to answer the original question...

Is it worth it? I spent just over 2 MONTHS making my last skin...thats more than 60 days, 8 weeks, a lot of frickin' time! I do it because I enjoy making skins. I enjoy tweaking the finest details, until I think it's perfect. The benefits of uploading are all bonuses to me. I create the skins because I enjoy doing it...the question, "Is it worth it?" doesn't really come into my mind...

Is skinning worth it?
If you skin commercially or for your self, then YES it is well worth it.
Not one day goes by that I don't open my PhotoShop and create something either for my self or for a client.
But the real question here is....
Is uploading skins worth it?
Let's face it, most skinners (like my self) skin for them selves and choose to share their work for free with the community, but if the response to that generous action is bad comments and ratings, then it's not really worth the trouble. I rather keep the skins to my self.
On top of this (and as mentioned above) comes a load of requests for addition of a bunch of things that the original author don't even use and most users get offended when the request is denied. One thing is to suggest an improvement to a skin and leave it up to the author to comply and another thing is to demand for things to be added to the skin.
I often reply to those emails as; My skins are Limited Editions. I can only change them when paid for.

Oh I like that one A67 I like that alot hehehehehe

Is skinning worth it?

Yes. Simply put, if you are satisfied with your skins (whether satisfaction comes from financial income or personal gratification) than it is worth it to make something you love look gnarly wicked cool.

If you are doing it (or anything else) in order to please others, you will consistently get upset about it, simply because tastes are so different in this world.

If you are doing it (or anything else) in order to please others, you will consistently get upset about it, simply because tastes are so different in this world.

Exactly!

I joined and subscribed to WC soon after buying WB. Back then I downloaded hundreds of skins. It's funny to me now that I spend more time on the forums listening to friends who happen to skin. Granted, I'm a lurker, but I feel part of the community.

I can't skin for beans. I've thrown together a few DesktopX objects and even posted a few (that pretty much sucked in my opinion but I enjoyed making and learning with). I can, however, appreciate the work that goes into creating skins. And I do appreciate it.

I'm going to try to make more of an effort to leave comments for what I do use. To thank you skinners for the hard work you do. Over the years you've made my work much more pleasent. Thanks

"Is skinning worth it?" It is to me as a user. Life's to short to do things you don't enjoy. I suggest that if you started skinning because you liked skinning . . . continue. Post what you make for yourself . . . and never look at the ratings or comments or downloads. That's not why you did it.

I have most of you on my watch list . . . I'll see your work and appreciate it. And I'll leave comments and a rating. I'll even leave my rating in my comments. You guys deserve that. {Great suggestion to make downloading and commenting mandatory before rating and then showing the individual ratings BTW)

In any case, do what you need to do to recharge. I'll be waiting for your return.

And again, thanks for all the amazing work.