Commie JUers

Why do they still believe in it?

Every once in a while on here, I'll see an article or a stray comment in a discussion that casts a favorable light on, or wistfully refers to, Communism and its long-touted wonders. We've all seen them here and there. I mean, we've even got our own Commies and Socies here on JU.
What I don't get is how people can still look favorably on such a horribly repressive, corrupt and proven inefficient system, a system that only seems to foster dictators and tyrants. It makes no sense to me. Even, hell,---ESPECIALLY---the people who lived under it are glad it's gone.
The NeoComms (we'll call them) say, "Well, okay, it didn't work....but maybe if we change this, or maybe if we do that, it will." The only thing wrong with that is that it's exactly what Stalin thought; it's exactly what Mao thought...Castro...Pol Pot. The promised Utopia failed to emerge, but "goshdarnit, we'll make it work, no matter what". And people have died by the millions. Pogroms, purges, collectivization, wars, policies of oppression aimed at individuals and groups, assassinations, etc....millions dead. Some say as many as 100 million. Perhaps more. Exact numbers from Mao's "Great Leap Forward" are, to this day, still unavailable.

I'm reading a book right now...it's called "Reagan's War" by Peter Schweizer, which details Reagan's forty-year struggle and campaign against Communism, first in Hollywood and at last on the international level, challenging it directly.
On page 213, in the second paragraph, a few lines especially leapt out at me:

"Surprised diplomats even encountered support for Reagan's policies among the Soviet intelligentsia. 'One hears (Soviet) intellectuals praising the US Administration's foreign policy, since toughness is the only thing the Soviet leaders understand'."

How ironic is it that, here in the West, our so-called "intellectuals" are usually the Neocomms, the ones praising the ways and means of communism, to this day, really, while their counterparts in the USSR were secretly giving the thumbs-up to their nation's enemy---that rabid, conservative, capitalist pig Ronald Reagan. And can anyone tell me why, children? If you haven't figured it out, I'll tell you:
Because those here in the West never actually had to live there, that's why. They never had to live in a police state that flagrantly censored their words. Western "intellectuals" never lived a under a terribly repressive government that tossed them into prison or, worse, mental hospitals, if they voiced dissent. Never had to fear that midnight knock on the door. Never had to suffer shortages and to do without so the State could function.
Only our geniuses here in the West seem to think it's a sad thing that we won. Only they hate Reagan for being right all along.

Communism works, but only it you're willing to allow the oppression of the masses, and, of course, to kill for it.

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Only our geniuses here in the West seem to think it's a sad thing that we won.[/quote[]

Sad, isn't it?

Reply #2 Top
Lousy Commieeees!!!!

---Gen. 'Howling Bull' Hallenby (From the Jerry Lewis Movie, Way ....Way Out!, 1966 )

Reply #3 Top
I keep asking our resident commies to go ahead and move to china, vietnam or even better north korea if they think communisim is so wonderful, I have even volenteered to help them with the paperwork denouncing american citizenship, have also offered to buy them airfare {one way of course} but somehow much to my chagrin no one has taken me up on my more than generous offers.
Reply #4 Top

Only our geniuses here in the West seem to think it's a sad thing that we won.


A large percentage of the population of East Germany voted for the "former" communists in the last elections. They got 10% of the popular vote in all of Germany (the west has a much larger population than the east) and won several constituencies in East-Berlin.
Reply #5 Top

A large percentage of the population of East Germany voted for the "former" communists in the last elections. They got 10% of the popular vote in all of Germany (the west has a much larger population than the east) and won several constituencies in East-Berlin.

Guess that means they have joined the western mentality! 

Actually, I understand that a higher percentage in Russia still do.  They do make the trains run on time.

Reply #6 Top
but somehow much to my chagrin no one has taken me up on my more than generous offers.
---Modman

Wow! They really are smart! After all, it's much safer to sit in a democracy and bitch about the system than it is to sit in a dictatorship and bitch about the system.





A large percentage of the population of East Germany voted for the "former" communists in the last elections.
---Leauki

Nice to know that we Americans aren't the only ones with short memories.
hese are the same people who cheered and danced when the wall came down. But then, afterward, they all had to go get jobs that actually produced something; that meant harder work. Think maybe that's had a lot do with it?


Actually, I understand that a higher percentage in Russia still do. They do make the trains run on time.


So did Mussolini.
Reply #7 Top
It's simple really, the "intellectuals" who long for a communist or socialist envision a utopia of "from each according to their means, to each according to their need..." with themselves as the arbitors of "means" and "need".

They also somehow have this strange idea that people will magically maintain the means when the need has been removed.
Reply #8 Top
Actually, I understand that a higher percentage in Russia still do. They do make the trains run on time.


So did Mussolini.


Strange how they are so similar.......
Reply #9 Top
I read this great quote once... *Trying to remember it*... it went something like this:

"There is nothing more repulsively brutal than the Utopia just before it finishes slaughtering those who would destroy it."

Anyways it was by Thomas Moore form the book "Utopia." Makes you think... maybe perfection is only attainable by killing everybody who doesn't agree. Frankly, I'll stick with imperfection.

Dan
Reply #10 Top
But you have to admit that we've never seen a true communist state. There has never been a society that didn't still have it's privledged class. Equality of all never happened.

I think in theory communism sounds wonderful - everyone gives according to their abilities and takes according to their needs. Unfortunately in practicality most are not motivated to work for the common good. We work to get ourselves ahead not society as a whole. Not that there aren't altruistic people out there but in general most of us go to work for the paycheck not to help society as a whole.

As far as the communist governments we've seen so far, they were corrupt and oppressive. Any country that has to use guns to keep people in their country is obviously doing something wrong.

I think people will always strive for a utopia that will never come. Maybe if you believe in heaven. We always want to look at what's wrong with our society and see if there is some way to make it better.
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Oh and I'm not a communist in case my comment didn't make that clear so don't be shipping me out the country or anything.
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I think in theory communism sounds wonderful - everyone gives according to their abilities and takes according to their needs.
---Locamama

Sure it does; I mean, even Christ himself could have been looked upon as a Communist. It's been said that His message, that we are to provide and care for the needs of others, might have been written by Marx himself, if God hadn't beaten him to it by about 1800 or so years.



Unfortunately in practicality most are not motivated to work for the common good.
---Locamama

And therein lies the rub; human nature itself is what throws the wrench into the works. And rightly so. After all, as LW alluded to, why should the doctor, who has the responsiblity of life and death on his/her shoulders, be forced to live in the same manner as the street sweeper? It's not fair.

Not that there aren't altruistic people out there but in general most of us go to work for the paycheck not to help society as a whole.
---Locamama

Though it IS possible to be altruistic and still go for the paycheck. Look at Bill Gates; Oprah.....rich waaaaaay beyond the dreams of Avarice, but still they freely give of their wealth to benefit others.

Any country that has to use guns to keep people in their country is obviously doing something wrong.
---Locamama

That's a mouthful there. When the people in N. Korea go to the beach, do they buy the propaganda and see the fifty-foot walls and fences there as obstacles to deter invasion, or do they realize that they're really walls for keeping them in? I wonder......

We always want to look at what's wrong with our society and see if there is some way to make it better.
---Locamama

In a capitalist society, for the most part, shelter, food and myriad other goods and services are on hand and readily available for all, as are medical aid, utilities (electricity, water, gas, etc.) and so forth. Whatever you need or want is there for the taking, as long as you have the money.
Police and emergency protection is offered for all by taxing the wages of the workers, and (way too many) government programs offer a way for those less fortunate to access needed services themselves.

How do you get any better than that?
Reply #13 Top
How do you get any better than that?


Well, you seem to think there's a lot wrong with the country, so obviously you don't fully agree with the situation. Or was that an ironic question? it's so hard to tell these days when someone is being serious or just playing a part.
Reply #14 Top
That's a mouthful there. When the people in N. Korea go to the beach, do they buy the propaganda and see the fifty-foot walls and fences there as obstacles to deter invasion, or do they realize that they're really walls for keeping them in? I wonder......


North Koreans can go to the beach? That's unexpected!

Though it IS possible to be altruistic and still go for the paycheck. Look at Bill Gates; Oprah.....rich waaaaaay beyond the dreams of Avarice, but still they freely give of their wealth to benefit others.


Yes, truly they are saints amongst sinners. i wonder though if they would do the same were they as poor as most. After all, if Gates lived less luxuriously he could feed an entire country off his own paycheck. God knows what he'd do with a country full of uneducated employees, but surely they'd be useful for something. Perhaps building great monuments or a mausoleum or something.
Reply #15 Top
think in theory communism sounds wonderful - everyone gives according to their abilities and takes according to their needs. Unfortunately in practicality most are not motivated to work for the common good. We work to get ourselves ahead not society as a whole


Communism defies human nature. A well regulated capitalistic society can channel human nature to benefit society. You cannot see a true communist state because it cannot exist. Man was not built that way.
Reply #16 Top

Guess that means they have joined the western mentality!


It's remarkable because Poland and the Baltic countries are very right-wing. Of course Poland and East Germany have had exactly the same history, except that Poland was catholic and East Germany was protestant before 1990 and that East Germany got lots of money from the west after 1990 and Poland did not.

Poland is now doing better!

I am mentioning religious affiliations because the Catholic Church was and is very popular in Poland and was heavily involved in the peaceful struggle against the (also peaceful!) communist regime. In East Germany the protesters who brought down the regime also hid in churches (which the regime did respect!) but after 1990 the vast majority of East Germans left the church.

The main differences I see between Poland and East Germany now are:

1. Poland is doing well, East Germany is not.

2. East Germany got money from the west, Poland did not.

3. Poland respects the church that helped them in their struggle against communism, East Germany has abandoned the church that helped them.

4. Poland is tolerant and patriotic, friends with the west and Israel, East Germany is known for its intolerance and nationalism, and is anti-American and anti-semitic.

I like Poland. I don't like East Germany.


Actually, I understand that a higher percentage in Russia still do. They do make the trains run on time.


East German communists do not manage to do even that!
Reply #17 Top

You cannot see a true communist state because it cannot exist. Man was not built that way.


A family is a communist economy. Each family member gives according to his ability and takes according to his needs.

Human beings are hard-wired to act like that. Human nature affords communism. An animal living in the way human beings do without a communist instinct would see its off-spring die and would fail to defend itself against predators. Such traits would quickly die out.

Why communism doesn't work in larger systems has nothing to do with human nature and everything with scalability.

Capitalism works because, being based on individual decisions based on each agent's perception of reality, it is infinitely scalable (ignoring external constraints like inadequate resources). Communism requires not perception but understanding of reality and not individual decisions but communal decisions (which CAN be made by one person nevertheless). This is possible in small communities (and even in very large communities if run by a genius), but it doesn't scale well in general.

There are special forms of communism that require total knowledge of reality but can work with individual decisions. Open Source software development is such a mechanism: enough knowledge exists because of the Internet and other networks, individual decisions can be made because the product (software) is infinitely scalable.
Reply #18 Top

A family is a communist economy. Each family member gives according to his ability and takes according to his needs.

You see that is where the analogy falls down.  It works in some (one may even say most) families, not all.  And when you start extending that family, you pick up the people that do not work that way, and hence it breaks down.  When I said man, I meant society.  For Society is composed of a variety of people, and as you point out, on a micro scale it can work.  However, once you bring all facets of man into the commune, it cannot work due to the very fact that no two people are identical.  So while some may work within communism, most will not.

Reply #19 Top

You see that is where the analogy falls down.


It's not an analogy. I speaking of the simple fact that a family is an economic system (that's what "economy" means: "household").

I disagreed with your statement that communism goes against human nature, not with any statements about communism being a failed system on the state level.


I don't know how many living families you know that do not employ communism internally. But I know none. And I expect children would die if their parents do not apply a needs-based entitlement system rather than a capitalist market-based entitlement system within the household.
Reply #20 Top

I don't know how many living families you know that do not employ communism internally. But I know none. And I expect children would die if their parents do not apply a needs-based entitlement system rather than a capitalist market-based entitlement system within the household.

Tova7 has an article on that.  And I wrote one a few weeks back about dead beat dads.

Reply #21 Top
Geez, this has turned into a nice discussion.

Cacto: Good to see you again, you Aussie Michael Corleone, you!

I wasn't being ironic; yes, there is much wrong with this country (as with all countries, actually), but not the system it runs under.
You have to admit that, for all its shortcomings, capitalism is still the most practical and workable economic system man has ever come up with.
How else do you explain the rapid advancement, culturally, technologically and economically, of the Western (and Westernized) world, than to credit capitalism and its inherent freedoms? Virtually all the high-technology the USSR and China had/have, they acquired from somewhere in the Capitalist West.
So many Third World nations have attempted to base their systems on some form of Socialism and have failed as countries, that I'd hardly think it a coincindence. Even many nations that are ostensibly "socialist" have some form of capitalism as their main economic policy.
Say what you want, but the system that gave us the Carnegies, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers is the winner, and is here to stay.


I don't know how many living families you know that do not employ communism internally. But I know none.
---Leauki

A family is different from a state. Responsible, caring mothers and fathers know that they brought their children into the world, and they love and want the best for them. They are RESPONSIBLE for their very lives and existence.

How many people that you don't know do you care enough about to give up everything you have and earn to care for their needs and wants?
That's the problem with your argument, in my mind.
The State doesn't KNOW you. It doesn't really care about its charges, the way good parents do, as your analogy would seem to state.
Whether by accident or design, for all its big talk about a classless society and sharing of the wealth, the Communist State comes down to existing simply for the benefit of itself. The people it governs are simply there either to feed into that or to hinder that. That's not a family.

DrGuy...thanks for the comments.
Very well said.

Another thing I'm getting out of reading this book is a chuckle about how easily duped the Left was, even back then.
As most of you probably remember, while Reagan was building up our military and nulcear arsenal, huge peace demonstrations, rallying against him and his policies, were breaking out all over the world, including here in the USA. It seems that most, if not all, of the groups and/or organizers were either Soviet or East German spies, Communist Party front groups or were being funded or otherwise backed by the USSR and/or its allies.
Sad thing is, the peaceniks today are still falling for it. So many of their "spontaneous" demonstrations and the groups behind them are organized and/or funded by anti-American organizations. Hell, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that Al-Quaeda itself funnels laundered cash to Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore and Jane Fonda.

Here's my question, though: all those people that were angrily taking to the streets and shouting anti-American and anti-Reagan slogans, burning him in effigy for being a militaristic, insane warmonger....where were they in 60s and 70s, when the Soviets were in the midst of the THEIR military buildup? The one that created the biggest war machine in history to that point, including WW2?
How come they weren't out there demonstrating and marching in front of the SOVIET Embassies, burning Kruschev and Breznhev (spelling?) in effigy?
Why do the totalitarians always seem to get a pass for their faults, but not us? That last was a rhetorical question; it's gone back and forth on here some many times that I really don't think it needs rehashed.

But, if you're feelin' Froggy, LEAP!