Larry Kuperman Larry Kuperman

Whose Internet Is It, Anyway?

Whose Internet Is It, Anyway?

Should America Control the Internet?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/10/20/congress.internet.reut/index.html
If you browse the Internet (and if you don't you're not reading this!) the websites that you visit ultimately get their names from ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers.) ICANN is a non-profit agency, based in California. Which means that they are regulated to one degree or another by the US Commerce Department, a part of the US Government.

Which means that the US Government controls the Internet. And some nations have a problem with that.

Countries such as Brazil and Iran have argued that the Internet is too important a resource for one country to control. Hence, the argument goes, an international body such as the UN should have the final say. In response, Minnesota Republican Sen. Norm Coleman has introduced a bill calling for the addressing system to remain under US control.

The first thought that occurs to me is the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The second, is that there is no body more capable of administering the naming conventions. The UN? With its glorious history of efficiency and expedient action? Ha! The only problem that would solve is finding a new job for some of Kofi Annan's unemployed relatives.

Perhaps Iran itself? Peace-loving, law-abiding Iran? You can visit Iran' s website at www.wearebuildinganuclearreactorforpeacefulpurposessniggersnigger.com (Not a real website in case you haven't gathered that. A little sarcasm.)

Or that model of efficient governance, the EU? Would it be "Le Internet" or "Das Internet?" Oh, and by the way, the Internet will be closed during August.

At the risk of invoking Al Gore jokes, the United States built the Internet and has done a remarkably good job of maintaining it. What is broken that needs fixing, one should ask, and who would be better at maintaining it? Internet-wide problems have been, with some exceptions, few and far between. Legislative interference has been almost unknown. There is no reason for change that I can see.

I do understand the concerns of countries that fear that, at some future time, the Internet could be politicized. But, until that happens, leave well enough alone.
59,715 views 52 replies
Reply #26 Top
wincustomize is an international forum, with people from everywhere...to start pointing out past atrocities and asking
your parents where they were on May 10th, 1940 when the German armies invaded
(why were the states neutral at this time?)
is highly insulting, espeically as the united states of america has committed it's own questionable acts (native-america indians, vietnam, iraq, nicaragua to name a few)
america has huge divisions within it's population, whether divided by money or race..no country is perfect
Reply #27 Top
what the......??
ok ?? well, u certainly showed me wrong !!!
Reply #28 Top
Let us assume that control was transferred over to Iran

What exactly would be the issue for giving Iran control over its ccTLD? Because that's the most a single nation can exert direct control over outside of its own borders. Likewise, what's the problem with allowing the US one vote to suspend routing to Iranian netblocks versus Iran's one vote against it?
Reply #29 Top
C'mon people... take it easy. The whole world pegs its currency to the American Dollar. Now, are you going to start getting mad over that?!?! Or are you going to cry out as to why America has it's international calling code starting with 1? You like it or not, it’s an undeniable fact that United States of America is the most advanced nation in the world where all the money and business is! And… just as Larry has put it… if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
Reply #30 Top
As the saying goes: garbage in, garbage out. There are some people here with a rather skewed view of the world, politics and history. And I don't mean the occasional drive by posters. They display such poor reasoning skills, that they drag all kinds of unrelated matters into the discussion.


Back on topic: the whole argument stems from the idea that (if I recall correctly), a government controlled agency holds some level of control over the root-system and the top-level domains available. So if the US government does not want there to be an .xxx domain, there will be no .xxx domain.

Some politicians find that, now that the Net is globally used and of global importance, this control should not be in the hands of a single nation. There is some merit in this, 'cause after all, who can you trust these days? So the proposal is that the UN, being pan-national, should handle this. And again, there is some merit in this thought.

Ofcourse, there is opposition to this idea. First and foremost the US, who'd rather not lose control, which is an understandable standpoint. Then there's the argument that the UN isn't the most effective of organisations. Too slow, too bureaucratic. And that too is a trueism. And third, there is the argument that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it, which has merit as well.

So what it boils down to is a couple of questions:
1. What weighs stronger: national or international interests?
2. Don't fix what ain't broken; or: try to make the system better (which could also end up worse)?

That is what we should be discussing here. But do we see that? Noooo, we only see the typical moronic "French are Evil because they eat toads", "The UN/EU/whatever can't be trusted because it's a bureaucratic entity" and "Americans are filthy capitalist pigs" arguments.

Boo fucking hoo.

Once again, I question the intelligence of the WinCustomize crowd and its staff. And once again it seems Jafo is the only sane being on this site.
Reply #31 Top
What exactly would be the issue for giving Iran control over its ccTLD?


I beleive they do have that control unless they gave it to someone else.
Reply #32 Top
Hi, Crae. Nice to see you here.

"So what it boils down to is a couple of questions:
1. What weighs stronger: national or international interests?
2. Don't fix what ain't broken; or: try to make the system better (which could also end up worse)?"

Add a third issue. Does the act of creation and investment of time and money, convey rights? And do "users" (as opposed to creators) get to take those rights away because they find the product so useful that they can't imagine life without it? An analogy for the WinCustomize crowd is "Your skin is so good, I use it on all my computers. Therefore, it should now be MINE!"

Regarding issue 1; the nations involved in the original proposal (Iran and Brazil) are not suggesting the decentralization of the naming authority. They want to keep it centralize, just take it away from the US. Not because they cite abuse, but merely because the POTENTIAL for abuse exists.

Point two (don't fix what ain't broken) is pretty clear from my 4th paragraph, and the response is that it COULD be broken.

Point three is one that concerns me. It seems to run like like this "The naming convention is such a valuable asset that we must take it away from the US and offer no compensation." The Internet is not a natural commodity. It did not just grow over night. It was the result of hard work and lots of money. Most of that came from the United States. Look at the largest sites today. How many of them (Yahoo!, Google, AOL, Microsoft, eBay, Amazon, etc.) are the result of efforts by corporations that are in the US?

Now think about how changes in the naming conventions could effect them. Redirection, for example.

The Internet works as it does because of the economics that underlies it. And that economics is free market capitalism.

Oh and Jafo is the sanest one here? My kind of place then!
Reply #33 Top
Personally, if US dominance over the root servers and ICANN gets the reliability and security issues with DNS fixed and imposed (adopted for the nervous amongst you), I can stand to wait. The political issues might be battled back and forth for a long time but there are outstanding technical problems that just need to be fixed.
Reply #34 Top
I don't think it is unreasonable to weigh a nation's ability to oversee the Internet based upon their politicizing of technology and stifling of free speech. There have been several sites, Ebay among them, who have been attacked by a couple of European nations for allowing Nazi memorabilia to be sold.

How would, say, they handle domains they considered to be "white supremacist?" Would votes on such be brokered the way UN votes are brokered with favors and bribes? Look at the UN security council and then imagine such a body using the Internet in such a way. We'll see the whole Iraq, Halliburton vs. TotalFinaElf junk played out in technology companies, except with politicians using their clout to undermine IP and advancement instead of political manuvering.

The point about the deaths during the hot summer wasn't just a jab. The costs they are willing to accept to uphold ideals shouldn't be imposed on the rest of us. Do we want nations who consider other cultures to be a threat worthy of suppression to be in charge of a venue for the expression of those cultures?

Dismiss my tone if you want, but go and look at France's attitude toward non-French Western Culture, and look at the methods they use to stifle such in their own nation. I wouldn't want Pat Robertson to have a say in the management of the Internet, nor would I want French Cultural elitists to have a vote.

Again, sorry for the off-topic stuff Kupe, but I didn't want my first post to be misconstrued as ignorant xenophobia.
Reply #35 Top
You like it or not, it’s an undeniable fact that United States of America is the most advanced nation in the world where all the money and business is! And… just as Larry has put it… if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!



yeah right.....time to wake up !!!
Reply #36 Top
Not a problem, BakerStreet. Please note that France was NOT a nation involved in the original petition; Iran was. We only need to think of the Mullahs of Iran having control over the domain names of the entire Internet...well, no need to belabor that.

sunwukong, the proposal was never intended to correct technical issues of DNS. The proposal is simply about control.

Let me also add, sunwuking an un-official JoeUser/WinCustomize greeting. I see that you have posting since August and I appreciate your thoughts and insights. Nice to have you on board.

A last thought, before I go to enjoy what remains of the weekend. The issue to me is a philosophical one. If you create something and maintain it, you should have certain rights. That is the principle behind my arguments.
Reply #37 Top
Hmm, well a last last thought.

-OZZY-, you have not added anything thoughtful. "yeah right.....time to wake up !!!" is not going to persuade anyone.

You asked if Europe has free speech. The answer from both me and BakerStreet, was "no, not to the same extent as in the US." Like it or not, that is true. Moreover, Europe as a whole has a history of allowing dictatorships. Not only Hitler and Mussolini during World War II, but more recently Franco in Spain and the military government of Greece. You further dispute that the United States is not the greatest economic power in the world today. You offer no facts to support your position or any rational arguments. In fact you are contributing nothing to this discussion.

You are welcome to offer a dissenting point of view, but include some substance to back it up.
Reply #38 Top
sunwukong, the proposal was never intended to correct technical issues of DNS. The proposal is simply about control.

I realize that -- it's just that as a techie that I'm willing to subsume whatever my cultural/national/whatever imperatives to just get DNS fixed!

Let me also add, sunwuking an un-official JoeUser/WinCustomize greeting. I see that you have posting since August and I appreciate your thoughts and insights. Nice to have you on board.

Thank you -- but I've been around since last November. I took a long break to move to the coast and to let the Great War on JU play itself out.
Reply #39 Top
ah man, only one thing left for me to say......and i'm sorry but,
you are a very ignorant and very dumb person !!!
come on, what does hitler have to do with this......uhm... NOTHING !!!
oh maybe one thing, u think americans are superior, the "übermensch" if you will...
so yeah......SIEG LARRY or something !!!
dumbass....
i'm sorry everyone, but he is really irratating me with his ignorance and stupidity !!
Reply #40 Top
ah man, only one thing left for me to say......and i'm sorry but,
you are a very ignorant and very dumb person !!!
come on, what does hitler have to do with this......uhm... NOTHING !!!
oh maybe one thing, u think americans are superior, the "übermensch" if you will...
so yeah......SIEG LARRY or something !!!
dumbass....
i'm sorry everyone, but he is really irratating me with his ignorance and stupidity !!


I fail to see the connection between Europes dictators and American Control of something they created. can you elaborate on why you want to Sieg Heil and how that means that america does? Unless you are calling us Nazis. But then it was Britain and France that allowed him to march into the Rheinland and promised peace in their time with the Sudentaland gimme. Which did drag america into a european war that should have been avoided if europeans were even the least responsible for their inactions.
Reply #41 Top
i fail to see it as well Dr. Guy....
larry said it, not me !!!
and i don't wanna sieg heil, again i think larry does since he thinks americans are so superior to the rest of the world, just like the nazis did....
anyway, all that happened over 60 years ago and has nothing to do with this, i'm not gonna discuss this.....
bye
Reply #42 Top
i fail to see it as well Dr. Guy....
larry said it, not me !!!
and i don't wanna sieg heil, again i think larry does since he thinks americans are so superior to the rest of the world, just like the nazis did....
anyway, all that happened over 60 years ago and has nothing to do with this, i'm not gonna discuss this.....
bye


Perhaps. Yet Europe repeated the sins of the past again just recently. With some exceptions. Spain is hiding behind a false shield, France and Germany behind a lie. Italy has not forgotten, nor has England. So who do we turn this over to?

You will disagree, but in reality, Europe still has more problems than solutions. And will for as long as they fail to acknowledge their own shortcomings. Something america does not have to worry about as they will constantly remind us of it. Every single day they suck at the niple.
Reply #43 Top
If you create something and maintain it, you should have certain rights. That is the principle behind my arguments.


I couldn't agree more! If I created something that I willingly shared with others, I certainly would not want those others to take it from me and assume control. I'm not American, and there are times when I may disagree with U.S. ideals, but in this instance, I believe the U.S. has a right and responsibility to maintain its own creation. It must be remembered that the world wide web is merely an extension of that creation and should not be politicised to embrace individual agendas.
Reply #44 Top
I believe the U.S. has a right and responsibility to maintain its own creation. It must be remembered that the world wide web is merely an extension of that creation and should not be politicised to embrace individual agendas

Exactly right! So control of the WWW should be handed back to the people who created it -- the Europeans.
Reply #45 Top
Exactly right! So control of the WWW should be handed back to the people who created it -- the Europeans.


??????? If the U.S. created the internet, and the WWW is merely an extension of it, I fail to see how the Europeans created it. That equates to an argument that Apple owns the music heard on its ipod....we all know it actually belongs to the composer/musician/s, etc.
Reply #46 Top
Um, just because there is A major infrastructure here in the US, doesn't mean that a similar infrastructure could not be constructed elswhere. If the rest of the world wants to pioneer a new intercontinental distributed backbone - let them. eventually we will all end up being hooked up to it anyway. Besides, what you percieve as "who controls what" is an illusion anyway. I doubt that anybody here has any true visibility on who controls what and where. If we did, government dealings would not need grand juries to dissect who said what to whom when to cause what.
Reply #47 Top
We need to stop being so damned concerned about the stupid requests of other countries. We have control over the internet and others have a problem with that they can either attempt to take it by force, or just invent somthing better. The US basicaly created the internet, so until someone takes it from us we will keep it.
Reply #48 Top

We need to stop being so damned concerned about the stupid requests of other countries.

You might want to qualify the 'we'.  Not everyone here is from the US....

Reply #49 Top
You might want to qualify the 'we'. Not everyone here is from the US....


True. Not all are so lucky!

(Just kidding!)
Reply #50 Top
I am so glad I read this thread. I am an American. I grew up in Germany as my father was Air Force enlisted. The village we lived in was situated on the border of Holland. I traveled via bicycle from age 11-15 all over northwestern Europe. I think I got a good idea of the population in that hemisphere. I don't take kindly to the bashing that can and has happened when "discussing" the probably or feasibility of any other country besides the U.S. "controlling" the WWW. I don't particularly like the way the French treated me personally while I was in france, but I won't bash them (in this thread). However, I say if a country doesn't like the fact that the web addressing services are centralized in the US, cut them off. They can develop their own little web, if they can.

Throwing all Europeans into the Hitler/Franco National/Socialist/Dictatorship loving category is shameful, IMO. Most countries in Europe are as embarassed and humiliated about thier histories as we Americans SHOULD be about our own Imperialist style of policing other countries policies and structures. The people I knew in Germany would cringe and change the subject and ask you to change the subject if it even came close to a discussion of what happened from 1939 to 1944.

If anyone should worry it's China, not Iran, Brazil or some other near thrid world country with no economic or military strength.

Now, even though France has no military victories (do a google) and hates Americans and don't like to shave and smoke cigerettes funny, tend to be called frogs and all that; at least they have come together with thier neighbors to form some kind of cohesion. While the US, under the Bush admin, usurps a muslim country and forces them to rewrite thousand year old traditions to meet US need to make the world a Republic of Democratic Aristocracy under Imperialist Oppression. And I am AN AMERICAN. Living right here in the middle of the country.

In closing, I quote from Tao Te Ching:

"Banish the intellectual!
Discard the knowledge!
We will all benefit a hundredfold!

...the first is to embrace simplicity and integrity.
The second is to consume
only the need sof our body and souls.
the third is to allow our love and concern
for others to define our essentiality."

Thank you for reading my 2 cents.