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Galactic Civilizations is not Master of Orion

Galactic Civilizations is not Master of Orion

Easing up on the demands

Back in 1992 I was in college and was writing a computer game called Galactic Civilizations for IBM's OS/2 operating system.  I hung out on Usenet's comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and almost like a collaborative design team, the users on that news group, where I was (and still am) a regular put together the features for this game.

I had started a little company called Stardock Systems in order to help pay for school and this game was being done under that umbrella.  IBM was very kind and sent me some software and tools and "red books" to help me write it. I also had bought Teach Yourself C in 21 days in order to program it.  The game also started a tradition that lasts to this day -- open betas.  Users who pre-ordered the game could participate in the beta program and tell us what they wanted changed or tweaked in the game. 

 for {product/platform} screenshot 1The betas were released in late 1993 and 1994.  But unknownst to us, we weren't the only ones interested in making a space-based strategy game.  Another new company had been started called Simtex and they had made a game called Master of Orion.   It was released at Christmas 1993. 

Because they were separated by OS platforms, the two existed side-by-side.  One might argue that we made the wrong choice in choosing OS/2.  After all, Master of Orion is considered a classic while Galactic Civilizations on OS/2 was a technological footnote.  But in reality, could a game written by a 20 year old college student in his spare time have gotten the kind of coverage that Galactic Civilizations received if it weren't for OS/2?  The publicity Galactic Civilizations received helped build the momentum that takes Stardock to where it is today.  Or put another way, Stardock exists today, many game developers in that time have long since vanished.

Master of Orion and Galactic Civilizations wouldn't tangle again so directly until 2003 when Galactic Civilizations for Windows and Master of Orion 3 would face off.  Since I made the original and was designing the new one, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.  Master of Orion 3 was made by a different company - though on a much higher budget.

This time they were both on the same platform and during development, there were heated discussion by fans of each (which typically involved people on moo3.com slagging GalCiv).  Since GalCiv had an open beta, and anyone who's been in one of our betas knows how crappy our games are until the very end, the MOO fans could rightly point out how ugly GalCiv was looking.  We were competing against something that had no open beta, just a few choice screenshots that looked, admittedly pretty good.

Then Master of Orion 3 shipped and things changed.  Regardless of ones feelings on Master of Orion 3, it was not what fans were expecting. What I think many fans wanted was Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics.  Master of Orion 3 was many things but it was not Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics, it was very different.

Master of Orion 3 actually sold better than Galactic Civilizations -- a lot better.  3 years of pre-ordered ensured it had a massive foot print at retail.  When it came out you could find rows and rows of Master of Orion 3 boxes and then would have to dig around to find a box of Galactic Civilizations.  Still, the game sold well with nearly 100,000 sold in North America either directly from Stardock or through retail via Strategy First.  Some unknown number (probably around 50,000) was sold overseas.  Not too bad.

The reviews of Master of Orion 3 and sales (when compared to its budget) made it unlikely that Atari would be doing a Master of Orion 4 any time soon.  GalCiv, whose budget was about 1/10th of MOO 3's, was ready to do a sequel with a bigger budget and a more vigorous marketing strategy.

So what about all those Master of Orion 3 fans who wanted MOO 2.5?  If my email inbox along with forum posts are any indication, they would have Galactic Civilizations II be that game.  But it isn't.  It's not supposed to be.  The forums really only give a taste of the nit-picking that MOO fans submit but it's there.  Whether it be demands for players to do orbital bombardments without having to invade the planet to demands for tactical combat ("I should be able to select which weapon fires on which ship!").

That isn't to say we won't put in good ideas when we hear them.  But Galactic Civilizations has always been a strategic game.  It's never been a game about tactics.  It's literally a class of civilizations.  You're building a civilization and you want to see how it is able to compete against other civilizations.  Ship design was added for the sequel not to be more like Master of Orion but to help extend the clash of civilizations story-arc: Players can take different weapons and defense technology paths and it would have become ridiculously complicated to stick with the "Technology gives you Ship X" methodology that GalCiv I gave you.  We had to have a way for players to choose what types of weaponry and defenses to put on their ships.  The 3D engine made it too tempting not to let people visually design their own ships.

Fleet battles in Galactic Civilizations II carries forward the clash of civilizations vision as well.  Because fleet sizes are limited by ones logistics ability, it forces players to decide whether to focus on a few huge ships or fleets of smaller ships.  Ultimately, the game revolves around whose civilization can adapt best technologically, culturally, industrially, and militarily to a given random galaxy with a given random mix of aliens controlled by carefully designed AI algorithms.

Master of Orion is not designed to be a clash of civilizations in this sense in my view.  It's a clash of militaries.  In MOO, at any level, cranking out the ships was rarely an issue. In the original, fleets of 30,000 ships was not uncommon.  The game down to being able to design the most effective ships and match them to your own tactical battle strategy the best.  The end-game typically revolved around a genocide run with each player zipping into a system with a massive fleet (held back by how large a USHORT was -- 65,535 ships in a group) and wiping out the planet.  The player with the faster ships could annihilate faster and thus win the game.

A fairly well known story about me and Master of Orion involves the birth my first son.  I played Master of Orion 2 in the delivery room on a laptop while waiting for my son to be born.  Hence, I know when MOO2 shipped because I was playing it on November 30, 1996 when it was still very new.  Or put another way, I'm a MOO fan too.  But that doesn't mean I want to clone it anymore than I want to clone Civilization (which, after all, has a very similar title). 

At the end of the day, we have our own ideas on what makes a fun game and want to pursue that.  And I can sympathize with Master of Orion fans who, ten years after MOO 2's release, are still looking for what they see as a "true sequel".  But please stop trying to push MOO on us.  We don't see being different from MOO as a flaw. 

251,974 views 84 replies
Reply #26 Top
I'll go different from everyone, the best 4x game I ever played was a PBEM game called Dominion. It was run by a GM usin g alot of spreadsheets (and some automation), so much fun because of the system and the added Role Play aspects.

If I wanted MOO2 again, I'd go play it.
Reply #27 Top
I should have made it less broad, 4x for me is a space strategy genre. Civ isnt a 4x game cause what are you exploring? Grass and trees? If I want to explore that I go to the countryside, hell even a park will do. Come on! Regardless, I find Civ more tedious than most turn based strategy games. Some might say its cause of depth, I say it's cause of... boring. I Played all 3 and will get 4th, but boring is the worst. But I liked the curve ball and I think Moo2 can stand up even to civ2, but they realy dont belong in the same category. Maybe is civ2 had unit design. On another hand if galciv was more like civ, then no one would compare it to moo series, they'd compare it to civ instead

And Psilore how is this a troll if its on topic? Your post was a total troll. It has nothign to do with the frikin subject, has no real body and can only be described as incendiary verbal construct (ie flame). I am however pleased you have mastered the shift-8 key combination. Kudos.

I had discussion with John Hamp in other thread already.
Reply #28 Top
I should have made it less broad, 4x for me is a space strategy genre. Civ isnt a 4x game cause what are you exploring? Grass and trees? If I want to explore that I go to the countryside, hell even a park will do. Come on! Regardless, I find Civ more tedious than most turn based strategy games. Some might say its cause of depth, I say it's cause of... boring. I Played all 3 and will get 4th, but boring is the worst. But I liked the curve ball and I think Moo2 can stand up even to civ2, but they realy dont belong in the same category. Maybe is civ2 had unit design. On another hand if galciv was more like civ, then no one would compare it to moo series, they'd compare it to civ instead


Broad? Your last post was pretty focused. It said "l love tactical combat therefore galciv sucks". Anyway.

4X genre. eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate.

In Moo and GC you start with 1 colony, explore space to find more worlds, colonise them (expand), develop them to produce more ships/research/taxes/influence (exploit) and then you finally exterminate the opposition through warfare or diplomatic power.

In Civilisation you start with 1 city, explore the surrounding territory to find good spots for new cities, build new settlements (expand), develop them to produce more units/research/taxes (exploit) and then you finally exterminate the opposition. 4x.

The entire 4x genre began with Civilisations. Moo1 and GC OS2 saw a good thing and made their own space based reinterpretations. The Moo series went for the tactical warfare focus, gal civ went for the strategic empire management overview. The key underlying difference between Civ and the others is setting. Civ is historical, Moo/GC are sci-fi. Past that Alpha Centauri (civ sci-fi edition) is planet bound, Moo/GC are galaxy spanning. You see a planets surface in one, a galaxy map in the other, but you do the same things.

Ultimately its all dressing, under the visuals they're all the same genre and focus on the aspects they think are most important. For Moo2 it was warfare, for GC its empire management.
Reply #29 Top
Comma splice.

Heh, bad habit. Change it to a semicolon. I'll probably have another comma splice in this very post. My other main bad habit is using rhetorical questions.

So as to make this post actually on-topic, I find it ironic that some people consider space-based 4X games as "dead." After all, when were they ever mainstream or "alive?" They were never particularly common at any point, and the Master of Orion series is very clearly the single most well-known of the lot.
Reply #30 Top
The galaxies in GCII will be larger.


Great...this is one of my favorite thing in GalCiv 1.

Reply #31 Top
I find it ironic that some people consider space-based 4X games as "dead." After all, when were they ever mainstream or "alive?" They were never particularly common at any point, and the Master of Orion series is very clearly the single most well-known of the lot.


I find it funny that people can be taking an interest in this game and declaring the genre dead at the same time. We're here debating this and beta testing a new title!
Reply #32 Top
Hm... all the years I was playing MoO1 and MoM someone fogot to tell me that it was not strategic but tactical

And you know what ? - I don't care - the games was fun to play !

About GalCiv ... I have both GalCiv1 and Altarian Prophecy and preordered GalCiv3 so I can play Beta 3a too. Great games. But the point is that if it was using more elements (even Tactical ) from MoO it could be much better.
At least on my humble opinion

P.S. Completely agree on MoO 3 thing - they destroyed the game completely. Glad I get my hold on pirated version first so after 3 days "trying" to play it I canceled my order.
(Btw: that's also why I love StarDock's destribution policy).
Reply #33 Top
and the general shittyness of modern games


Is that a real word?
Reply #34 Top
MOO3 creators should be publicly castrated though.
Can anyone tell me 1 good thing that was in MOO3?


The uninstaller worked pretty well.
Reply #35 Top
Are you kidding? MoO1 was the best MoO! MoO2 was just Civ in Space with a MoO flavored Tactical combat resolution tacked on, and a some Heroes of Might and Magic/MoM leaders tossed in for flavor!

I wanted MoO3 to be MoO1.5! As a game, MoO3 is alright, if you can tolerate spreadsheets (and the bugs galore in the early releases). But it was certainly a shock to the Civ in Costume fanzers that wanted a MoO2.5.

The best games of the 4x ever? That would have to be MoM and SMAC. Why? They are classic 4x that allow you to build your empire and forces to your playstyle, rather then fitting your style into the preset cookie cutters available in the game. GC2 has a lot of promise of letting me play using the strategy I choose, rather then a subset of preset paths. Add that in to a classic SF, conquer the galaxy 4x format, and it has the potentional of becoming one of my favorite games of all time. Here's to it living up to most of its potential!
Reply #36 Top
Ahh... Master of Magic... such delectable memories. Maybe after Galciv2 is done Brad can crank out the sequel to that one?
Reply #37 Top
Try this: http://george101.demon.co.uk/mom/ - brings good memories
Reply #38 Top
Ahh... Master of Magic... such delectable memories. Maybe after Galciv2 is done Brad can crank out the sequel to that one?



You know, I remember reading an article somewhere about 6-12 months ago (yeah, I know that's not really narrowing down the time frame a whole lot) that Stardock had acquired the rights to develop Master of Magic 2. I never did hear Brad or anyone else from Stardock actually deny whether this was true. Can anyone on the dev team comment on that? Was it all just rumor and groundless speculation, or was there some truth to it?
Reply #39 Top
Was it all just rumor and groundless speculation, or was there some truth to it?


actually I remember marking out for that as well.
Reply #40 Top
I was wondering what was happening with that. I definitely voted in a poll saying I would buy it. There was a lot more talk about it from Brad before GalCiv2 really got going.
Reply #41 Top
They probable were deciding what to develop next "GC2" or "MoM clone" and since they decided on GC2 the descussion ended.

It could be nice if they could do both, they surtenly talanted team but they are only one team.

Who knows, may be if sales of GC2 will go well they will be back to this idea and will develop GC3 in same time as MoM clone.
(Hope they do not mind word "clone" but thats what people want).
Reply #42 Top
You mean Elemental? I've been waiting on that game! I know it had started initial prototyping, but since GC2 came along, I think it's been "paused".

Isn't Society in the cooker as well? That would make 2 teams, doesn't it?
Reply #43 Top
Here's the article I was thinking of: https://www.galciv.com/index.asp?action=full&NewsID=525

I had thought Brad had said "Master of Magic" outright in that article, but it looks like he didn't. But at least we know that at this time last year Stardock was planning on making a fantasy game after GalCiv2.
Reply #44 Top
Here's the article I was thinking of


Yep, I believe that's the piece I remember reading (okay, so it was almost a full year ago--sue me ).

I had thought Brad had said "Master of Magic" outright in that article, but it looks like he didn't. But at least we know that at this time last year Stardock was planning on making a fantasy game after GalCiv2.


Well he *does* hint at this fantasy game's title in the article's headline. And if we know Brad at all, I doubt he would drop a hint like that unless he was able to back it up. Either way, however, I admit I'm excited by the mere prospect of Stardock doing a fantasy strategy game--regardless of whether it's Master of Magic 2 or not.
Reply #45 Top
Me too , just hope they do it and that they not start the same "it's not MoO it's a different game" routine like with GalCiv again if they will give different name.
Reply #46 Top
I think the MoM thing fell apart due to items in licensing and contracts that Atari demanded of Stardock before letting them develop any of their old franchises (MoM and MoO belong to Atari through a fun series of acquisitions and IP purchases).

I think they also said at one point they pretty much want to keep it to 2 game projects cooking at a time (though I could be wrong), with staggered starts so as one ramped down, the other would really ramp up. GC2 is the focus right now with Society in the cooker. A GC2 expansion will probably slip in there somewhere as a side project. Galactic Federations (The GC Universe RTS hinted at many times) might end up being the project in 2007 (again, guesses based on cruising forums and IRC).

I remember seeing the concept art sketches for what they were hoping could have turned into MoM2... They looked good, too bad it never went anywhere.
Reply #47 Top
It's just a matter of resources. StarDock doesn't need the name "MoM" to have a good game, and successful hit.

Does Atari own the old SimTex titles outright? I know that at one point, the Microprose title/brands were being sold very cheap by Hasbro (which changed its gaming name to Atari, IIRC). That's how PopTop acquired the name to "Railroad Tycoon".

I suppose right now, with Civ4 coming out, would be a bad time to go looking at what they'd sell the title for. Too bad. But there are plenty of titles left to be used out there. It isn't the title, anyways. Look how many people ran out and got GalCiv1, looking for something a little more MoOish then MoO3!
Reply #48 Top
Lol. I just love the memories of MOO 2. I liked MOO 2 at the time too. It was a great game for its time. But it doesn't hold up very well today. The AI was a joke. It had a lot of micro management that totally kills it on larger maps, and it has really bad game balancing. It was good compared to other games then. But like many games 10 years ago, it doesn't hold up so well today.
Reply #49 Top
Preview in the newest PCGamer,
Their writer loved the early play tests he tried.
Good buzz from them will definitely help if the game is released as scheduled 1Q 2006.
Reply #50 Top


https://www.stardock.com/stardock/10year-images.html


check out the bottom of the page for a screenshot from "elemental".  i wish they were working on this instead of GC2.  hopefully it wont be forgotten about when they do finsh GC2.