Back to Earthers: Irresponsible or Visionary

from JoeUser Forums

I am an aspiring back-to earther.

Later today, I will pick up my newly acquired woodstove (I bought it early in case there's a run on them this year). Next month, I will have it installed. Our hope is to be completely independent of natural gas within the next two years, but we may be able to reach the goal in one. We hope to eventually grow most of our own produce, raise a few chickens, and, within 15 years, be "off the grid" as far as electricity is concerned. Our purchasing and lifestyle decisions are geared towards those goals.

If we are successful, we will need to earn very little extra money to support ourselves and our children. Much of the money we do need can be raised by selling excess produce, chickens, and eggs.

And yet there are some who are inclined to call that lifestyle "irresponsible". I call it the opposite, for the following reasons:

A dependent lifestyle is, in fact, irresponsible, because it relies on the consistency of others for survival. What will this individual do, for instance, if, in a worse case scenario, the power grid crashes? What if there's a major famine in this country and not enough food to go around? With our commercial agricultural methods, that's not an unforeseeable scenario at all. What if natural gas prices reach a level where home heating and fueling of power plants is commercially impractical, and thus "rolling blackouts" become the standard of the day (again, not unforeseeable; it's happening in many areas).

One of the key components of environmental stewardship is reducing our own impact on the environment. One way we can achieve that is by being producers, rather than consumers, and by using the land we own or rent to produce as much as possible to be an asset to the planet, rather than a liability.

Money only gets you so far. Jobs come and go, and nobody is immune to the possibility of unemployment. But if you have invested wisely in getting the most out of what you have, you will not feel as severe an impact.

You call it irresponsible; I call it visionary. While you invest in stocks and bonds, I intend to invest in self reliance. In the end, we'll probably both get what we want out of life. But your life plan is dependent upon the successes of others, while mine is dependent upon my own success.

Which is more responsible? You decide.

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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think if you are doing it for the inherent benefits of the lifestyle, the simplicity, the lack of society's ills, etc., then you are doing it right. If you are doing is as a luddite statement, or as some backwards environmentalist movement, then you aren't.

I think YOU are are doing it for the right reasons. This whole phenomenon though, since the first issue of "Mother Earth News" came out, has had as many motives as adherants. I have spoken to people who wanted a simpler life that wasn't dependant on society. I have met people who were so painfully self-righteous and ignorant that they simply had to remove themselves because they couldn't fit in.

The one thing to consider before you go TOO far, though, is that the gains have to outweigh the losses. Once you go totally wood, you end up using more resources to do less of a job. Once you loose electricity, you lose many, many resources to better yourself and your kids.

You could generate your own electricity if you are situated on land that allows for that, and have local ordinances that allow it, but I don't see how you can raise enough wood on your own to not be dependant on others in your society. To me, doing without gas seems to be a statement without many "pros". Losing electricity robs you of tools that you can use to be independant in other ways.

"While you invest in stocks and bonds, I intend to invest in self reliance. In the end, we'll probably both get what we want out of life. But your life plan is dependent upon the successes of others, while mine is dependent upon my own success."


Then you are going to have to move somewhere that no one has any ability to stifle your efforts. As long as you have to explain yourself, get permits for your efforts, fight people over your constructions, livestock, energy production, etc., you are always going to be interconnected as much as any of us.

One day your area passes an ordinance declaring livestock farming to be under some new guideline, and you'll be as destitute as anyone who lost their stocks in a crash. They pass an air quality ordinance that makes burning wood controlled, you lose your ability to heat your house. They pass health regulations that require x,y,or z in terms of modern convienences, then you are in dire danger (and you know what I mean).
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

We've been working on decreasing our energy dependency.  We purchased a corn burning stove (burns dried corn kernels, which is cheap and abundant where I live).  So, our propane use is going to be only needed for our cook stove, the clothes dryer, and heating water (which is about 1/5 of the current yearly bill).

How are you decreasing electricity?  I was looking into some solar systems, but it all seems so very expensive. 

I can't see myself ever being "independent" or "off the grid" but I sure would like to be less dependant.

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
You call it visionary, I could call it isolationist and counterproductive.

The benefit of societal specialization (i.e. having a single defined role, and relying on others to do their defined roles) instead of being a jack-of-all-trades is that it allows the specialist to gain a very advanced skillset in their area, and to advance the state of the art in that area much more rapidly than would otherwise be possible. This tends to make everyone's life better over time.

Of course there is the downside that the demand for certain specialties (e.g. plumbers) may outstrip their availability, and (as you point out) that one becomes dependent upon the specialists for anything more than a very basic level of functionality.

However, if everyone chose to do everything for themselves, while it MAY be true that everyone would have much better survival chances in many worst-case scenarios, it also means that people will be less involved with their community, less interested in their neighbor's well-being, and less invested in society as a whole; and consequently society as a whole will tend to advance at a much slower pace, as many people would end up with sub-optimal (or, to put it more bluntly, just plain crappy) living arrangements, tools, and processes.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

You could generate your own electricity if you are situated on land that allows for that, and have local ordinances that allow it, but I don't see how you can raise enough wood on your own to not be dependant on others in your society.

Actually, in our case, yes, we are on land that allows for it....full southern exposure of half of our roof, and near the top of th hill in what is considered to be one of the best places for wind power production. Not everyone has that luxury, granted, but some have luxuries of which they are unaware.

As for wood, there's actually no need to be dependent on anyone for it. Once we have a pickup truck, travelling through town with a chainsaw offering to clear away fallen trees (AWAY from structures, at least) in exchange for the wood should net us a more than ample supply around here...who knows, in a coupla years, we may even have a surplus to sell for profit, along with the intended eggs and produce.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

You call it visionary, I could call it isolationist and counterproductive.

Rather narrowminded and meanspirited, don't you think? I fill a valuable niche in society, as does everyone else. If you want to lead a consumer driven life and earn more and more just so you can spend more and more, knock yourself out. But let me ask you, how is it isolationist and counterproductive if I am supplying fresh eggs and quality produce to our community at a good price rather than having them have to drive the 12 miles into town to buy it, at considerable expense to them, no less? How is it isolationist and counterproductive if I am cleaning up wood after a spring thunderstorm? How is it isolationist and counterproductive if I am reducing our impact on the environment? Aren't we encouraged to "think globally, act locally"?

Your mindset of wasting resources under the assumption that you are driving the economy is precisely the reason gas is so expensive right now. So don't preach at me trying to convert me to your mindset, cita...I have as many reasons to justify it as you have to justify yours.

How are you decreasing electricity? I was looking into some solar systems, but it all seems so very expensive.

Gradually decreasing use of high drain appliances; purchasing new items with their electrical usage as a primary consideration, and working towards the eventual purchase of grid-intertie solar and wind systems. We're years from being independent of electricity, mind you, but making the moves one small step at a time.

 

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
The only people I have ever known of that were totally self-sufficient in terms of electricity were some folks in TN that had built a dam on their property and had it generating electricity for them. It was an amazing feat, and they actually generated enough to sell electricity BACK to TVA. It was probably 20 feet or so wide and probably ten feet tall. I wish I had photos. I stopped once to talk to them about it but no one was home. They had been featured in the local paper a couple of times.

**

My problem with what you are saying about the wood, Gid, is that you really aren't becoming self-reliant. In fact, you are relying on other people to "donate" your wood to you. Yes, I realize people usually pay to have such blowdowns cleared and hauled away, but the gist of this is self-reliance and renewable resources. Wood is a really, really inefficient resource in terms of renewability and the labor involved.

Think of it this way. Rate how much time it will take you to locate, cut up, split, and haul the wood you intend to gather. Then, consider what you would make in a job or independant enterprise in the same amount of time. You can buy a truckload of firewood here for 30 or 40 dollars. That's why the people charge to clear blowdowns. The wood is simply not worth the effort to clear it.

Self-reliance is a benefit in and of itself, but if being "on the grid" offers you more possibilities for financial self-reliance, then you really aren't benefitting yourself by rejecting such, are you? I mean, if you spend twice as much time and effort heating your house, when you could have half the time to devote to other enterprises, that is a 50% waste of your time and effort.

I think you have to weigh this carefully so as not to trade any resource simply based on the "vibe" of self-reliance.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Think of it this way. Rate how much time it will take you to locate, cut up, split, and haul the wood you intend to gather. Then, consider what you would make in a job or independant enterprise in the same amount of time.


Assuming, of course, there are jobs to be had.

The problem I have in this area is that the jobs where I have the most experience are either not here or (in the case of group homes for the developmentally disabled) are so heavily quota based I don't have a chance of being hired unless someone can figure out a way to re-engineer my DNA. So that leaves menial work at minimum wage or slightly above (or, in the case of the paper route, work options that gas prices are about to price out of existence), or, frankly, moving. And I have looked for so long for a place I can call home, I ain't exercising the latter option. And working as a handyman around town is out because we're, well, different, and a lot of locals won't hire me out because of that (apparently the length of one's hair correlates with one's ability/inability to do the job, or sumthin' like that). So, yes, while the woodgathering isn't especially financially rewarding, I would be performing a service and getting something back out of it. And very few people are going to turn down the chance to get the wood cleared for FREE, by ANYONE.

I'll use the same line I used in Nevada when I was travelling 60 miles each way for $6 an hour work: it's better'n NO bucks an hour!
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I mean, if you spend twice as much time and effort heating your house, when you could have half the time to devote to other enterprises, that is a 50% waste of your time and effort.


estimates I've seen forecast a 71% rise in natural gas prices...we simply can't afford that, baker. Not won't...CAN'T. And we HAVE to heat the house.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
My problem with what you are saying about the wood, Gid, is that you really aren't becoming self-reliant. In fact, you are relying on other people to "donate" your wood to you. Yes, I realize people usually pay to have such blowdowns cleared and hauled away, but the gist of this is self-reliance and renewable resources. Wood is a really, really inefficient resource in terms of renewability and the labor involved.


We'd looked into a wood burning stove for our retirement homestead. As yet, we're undecided.

I know that we're planning to install solar panels to either suppliment or replace municipal power....the initial cost is a little high, yes, but the rewards are worth it.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
"And very few people are going to turn down the chance to get the wood cleared for FREE, by ANYONE."


Coming from a rural area of backwards folk, that is a bet I simply could not take...

I know what you are saying, Gid, but if you are talking about real self-suffienciency, you simply can't have it in America. In reality what you are going to do is rob yourself of opportunity and still be under the thumb of the people you have problems with.

I feel your pain. For years I thought exactly what you are thinking, but try and try as I may, I couldn't figure out a way to do it. What I came up with was me giving up comfort and opportunity and STILL weathering the junk I hated. I'm afraid what you are going to do is simply make life harder, alienate yourself even more from your community, and still be at their whim.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

I'm afraid what you are going to do is simply make life harder, alienate yourself even more from your community, and still be at their whim.

But see, what you're not understanding is, in small communities, once an outcast, always an outcast. I could wear a suit and tie to church on Sundays and work at the most respected job in town and I would never shake the impression some people around town have of me. So where would be the sense in trying, only to make myself miserable?

As for the wood clearing, the vast majority of people in town are neutral towards us, and more like us than loathe us, it's just the silent majority don't want to be seen doing anything that might actually help us make a gainful living (they have property, too, you know...and they're just trying to protect it from the FEW people in town that are jerks. I understand that, and bear them no ill will for it). As for clearing wood, 1) that's a necessity following a storm, and 2) I can always drive to the nearer, larger community where most of them don't know us well enough to dislike us.

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey Gideon, just wanted to let you know that my grandpa and I have done the wood thing many times. If you're willing to go get it, there's PLENTY of wood to be found around town.
Also, don't know if you would need it, but if you don't mind the work you can always pick up some wood (for building, or for burning I guess) as well as nails from tearing down old houses. I am not sure the channels you would have to go through to get permission, but we tore down two houses and had enough materials to build the living room and master bed and bath. If I'm not wrong the only things we had to buy for those rooms was the rafters and sheet rock. Even with the time put in to tear down the houses (in a manner in which you could save the wood, nails etc), we saved thousands.

Keep at it! Let me know if there is anything we can help you with!

Grazia e Pace!

JP
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Will do, Avanti. And Pampa's tearing down a lot of houses to clean up the city; I'm going to talk to a few of the contractors involved and see if we can't get some of the scrap. Plus, I get free pallets from the newspaper office (not a lot of wood, but the price is right).

On a sidenote, have you heard from your folks on how they weathered Rita? We've been praying for them and were glad to see Houston didn't get a direct hit, at least.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks for the prayers. They seem to be doing good and have weathered the storm well. Mom said that they lost some privacy blinds, but other than that things are good. Houston and Galveston really got spared. However, there are still a lot of people needing prayers and helping hands to get through this.
Thanks again!
Grazia e Pace!
JP
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Rather narrowminded and meanspirited, don't you think? I fill a valuable niche in society, as does everyone else. If you want to lead a consumer driven life and earn more and more just so you can spend more and more, knock yourself out. But let me ask you, how is it isolationist and counterproductive if I am supplying fresh eggs and quality produce to our community at a good price rather than having them have to drive the 12 miles into town to buy it, at considerable expense to them, no less? How is it isolationist and counterproductive if I am cleaning up wood after a spring thunderstorm? How is it isolationist and counterproductive if I am reducing our impact on the environment? Aren't we encouraged to "think globally, act locally"?

Your mindset of wasting resources under the assumption that you are driving the economy is precisely the reason gas is so expensive right now. So don't preach at me trying to convert me to your mindset, cita...I have as many reasons to justify it as you have to justify yours.


How is it useful to supply eggs and produce to your community, if everyone in your community is already generating their own eggs and produce? How is it useful for an entire community of 200 people to spend time every day caring for their 5 or 6 chickens and tending their 200-square-foot vegetable plot, instead of having a few people who can dedicate the time to produce them en masse more quickly and cheaply with more advanced techniques?

I'm arguing from the "macro" position, if you will. I have no problem with what you want to do as an individual, I'm just considering what would happen if everyone decided to embrace the lifestyle that you're championing here.

When you say that you'll sell eggs and produce to the rest of the community, though, you're not driving toward widespread self-sufficiency anymore; you're hoping to make people dependent upon you to fulfill some of their needs. And that's just what I'm trying to do, too. I want to (continue to) do my job well enough that people believe I am worth the amount that they pay me, so that I can continue to consume (or not) as I see fit.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gideon: I was wondering. Do you have health insurance? I mean last I checked, a family plan was up in the $400.00 range unless you've got a nice benefits package at work. If you don't have insurance and let's say you found out that one of your kids needed a new kidney, do you think you'd be able to scrape up $60,000 worth of scrap wood or would you be willing to accept government assistance provided by us morons that think going out and getting a real job is not so bad an idea? Your sentiments are nice, but you will always depend on working people in the long run. We are the ones that have to go out and earn the money to pay for the "gifts of the land" that you plan to sell.

Let me ask you a couple other questions:

How many kids do you have? I ask because you mention raising a few chickens. Let's keep in mind that chickens in good shape will lay about one egg a day. You mentioned children, so I assume you have at least two. Now I'm one of those evil concumers that goes out and works for a living so I can't speak for you lving off the land folk, but we eat at least two eggs per person at breakfast. Family of four = eight chickens needed just for breakfast. Now that's just breakfast, I assume you'll grow some wheat so you can bake bread. You'll maybe need a few more eggs if you want to do some baking. There's a few more chickens you gonna need. I assume when you say you want to sell the eggs to earn money that you'll sell by the dozen? So how many dozen a day will you need to sell in order to make enough money? I'd say on second thought, your "few" just became several dozen chickens to even begin to see a profit, but wait...Those chickens need to eat right? They will need vaccinations correct?

Wait, wait wait, I forgot. You're going to raise produce as well. I guess you can pay the feed store in tomatoes and I heard once that most Veterinarians happily accept cucumbers in lieu of cash.

I assume your wife is a seamstress or does the clothing store accept turnip greens these days? As far as toiletries, I assume you don't use deodorant, but do you supply your kids with tooth brushes and toothpaste? If so, I heard that Walgreens has begun accepting rutabagas for most toiletries.

Yes Gideon, money only get's you so far. But you need a time machine to get where you want to go, not a few acres of land, some chickens and a wood burning stove. Unfortunately, for the last couple hundred years, most people have stopped accepting poultry products and produce as payment for life's necessities.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

How many kids do you have? I ask because you mention raising a few chickens. Let's keep in mind that chickens in good shape will lay about one egg a day. You mentioned children, so I assume you have at least two. Now I'm one of those evil concumers that goes out and works for a living so I can't speak for you lving off the land folk, but we eat at least two eggs per person at breakfast. Family of four = eight chickens needed just for breakfast. Now that's just breakfast, I assume you'll grow some wheat so you can bake bread. You'll maybe need a few more eggs if you want to do some baking. There's a few more chickens you gonna need. I assume when you say you want to sell the eggs to earn money that you'll sell by the dozen? So how many dozen a day will you need to sell in order to make enough money? I'd say on second thought, your "few" just became several dozen chickens to even begin to see a profit, but wait...Those chickens need to eat right? They will need vaccinations correct?

Actually, ONE egg is, technically a "serving". A quick check of the USDA's website will verify this.

Also, eggs, like everything else, are not an "everyday" food. We go through about two dozen per week, since you are so concerned (thanks, though...your concern is appreciated).

Apparently you are unaware that labor, as well as produce and eggs, has a market value. Apparently you are also unaware that I DO work outside the home for the money we need for these particular projects (again, thanks for the concern), and that complete self sufficiency is a LONG TERM, not an immediate goal (I should not need to address a financial genius such as yourself as to the difference between the two). In fact, I mention about a 15 year timeline in the article itself. We are taking gradual steps to self sufficiency, not making an immediate leap. If, for instance, we take an initial flock of 25 "straight run" chicks (the minimum order; "straight run" means they haven't been sexed before the sale), and, as time and resources permit, buy more land upon which to raise them, a flock of a couple hundred birds within that time frame is not wholly unreasonable. While that is still a small enterprise in terms of today's society, it is still a reasonable contribution. And the eggs I sell will be from chickens that aren't factory farmed in inhumane conditions, a side effect of the "efficient" manufacturers.

As for farming produce, the same rules apply. We gradually increase what we produce (even if, within two or three years, we are producing 60-70% of the food for our table, that's a SIGNIFICANT financial gain, if it were calculated...the money saved can be applied to other purposes.

As for health insurance, your figures are WAY high. That's all I will say about that, except to say: "shop around, dude!" I have, and while I really don't care to discuss the specifics of our financial standings with a total stranger, will tell you there are many better options out there, for those who care to look.

No, I don't need a time machine. All I need is a plan, and to adhere consistently to the plan over the years, and we'll be able to realize these goals (for the record, wind and solar grid intertie setups that supply enough electricity for an entire house run about $20g each, and both carry 20 year warranties. We are fortunate to be able to consider both options where we live, but haven't yet decided which way we will go, once we can afford it).

You may consider such enterprises a waste of time, but that's YOUR values. While I respect your right to hold those values, don't make the mistake of trying to force those values on ME.

Thanks again for your concern.

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
We gradually increase what we produce (even if, within two or three years, we are producing 60-70% of the food for our table, that's a SIGNIFICANT financial gain, if it were calculated...the money saved can be applied to other purposes.


My inlaws have a few acres here in Georgia, that land and everything on it is paid in full-thanks to good budgeting while on active duty. Anyway, they grow all kinds of vegetables, a few fruits and have a pecan tree orchard that he had the forsight (sp) to have their four sons plant about thirty five years ago. He is an avid hunter, eats everything he kills and has two freezers full of venison and squirrel...yuck on the latter. They even make their own blueberry and muscadine wines. She cans and freezes all excess and they sell their abundance of blueberries to the corner market and to friends from church who come out to pick. The pecans have't done so well in the past couple of years thanks to the squirrels which is why the freezer is full of squirel instead of nuts.
So anyway, on the produce thing I am with you, have seen it work with my in laws, they do it for the pure satisfaction of working for those things. Not to say my hubby doesn't work hard so I can go to the commisary! haha
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gid:

I don't doubt being able to supply for you and your family, I just wonder if you won't need a full fledged farm for earning enough profits to pay for life's necessities that can't be bartered for.

Good luck to you and most of all to your kids.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was wondering....how will you power your generator? You'll have to buy gas for that, right? Otherwise no electricity. Your car, too. You won;t be able to be compeletly and utterly self-sufficient until you can get away from having to purchase this one item.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was wondering....how will you power your generator? You'll have to buy gas for that, right?


I never heard of a gas powered wind turbine or solar panels. You'll have to enlighten me.

Your car, too. You won;t be able to be compeletly and utterly self-sufficient until you can get away from having to purchase this one item.


I have already answered this several times in the comments. Produce, chickens, and eggs, can be sold for income. There are many ways to make an income once we're set up. As for a car, actually, even in rural Texas, we could eventually get by without a gasoline powered car if we needed to.

Good comments, but remember, this is about long term goals, not something we intend to do overnight.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
I never heard of a gas powered wind turbine or solar panels. You'll have to enlighten me.


Here's an idea: set up your own little refinery....if you're out by yourselves, you should have no problem running it out of a shed or barn, like a still. Think of it as making moonshine that can run your car.