Evolution vs. Gravity

How religion affects acceptance of theories

It never ceases to amaze me how blinded some people are by their religion.  They seem to be completely unaware of how their religion has biased them taking a more open-minded approach to scientific research.

Let me give you a tale of two theories.

Evolution is a theory that stipulates a set of principles on how life on earth changes (evolves) over time.  It has a great deal of documented evidence to support it.  However, because evolution contradicts the bible, many religious people try to find ways to discount it. They close their minds to it.  In the bible, life as we know it did not evolve but was rather created directly by the hand of God. This is especially true of humans.  Most religious people either take the stories in Genesis to not be true in the literal sense but try to argue that it is true symbolically (though even that's a stretch).  But the point being, because evolution contradicts an existing deep held religious belief, some people have trouble accepting it.

But compared to the theory of gravity, evolution is rock hard fact.  We actually do not know how gravity works.  We have observed that gravity is related to mass. And we have made some formulas that describe how gravity is related to mass (F=MA for example).  But we still do not have a clue as to what causes gravity.  Why does mass create gravity? No idea (and things get sketchier about strong and weak forces too but we'll hold off that for another time).  But religious people don't challenge the theory of gravity even though it's on weaker ground.  But imagine if the bible had stated something vaguely that God's arms push down on all things to keep them in place on the world. That his infinite arms pushed objects towards bigger objects.

One can imagine the debates we'd be having if the bible spoke on gravity.  Instead of the accepted belief that gravity PULLS objects towards each other, we would instead have people arguing that no, God PUSHES people towards things based on their size or something. We'd have "Intelligent Gravitation" or something like that.  And because of that, we could potentially have real damage done to genuine scientific research because some people would insist on looking for data that supported that some mystical, super natural force was pushing people against objects rather than focusing on mass creating a pull effect (gravity) and trying to figure out why that is.

That's why things like intelligent design are so problematic. Because they're not based on any scientific evidence (no more than the belief that some unknown force is pushing all things towards other things based on their size) it can slow down scientific advancement and cloud education.

I much prefer to have my beliefs be based on the evidence rather than looking for evidence to support my pre-existing beliefs. But religion tends to be pretty dogmatic and blind people to looking at other possibilities.  It's not as if religion doesn't get its shot for explaining the universe.  Most Americans who believe in evolution (statistically) were raised in a Christian household.  That means most of them changed their views because the data supporting evolution was more compelling than the data supporting Creationism. 

Evolution wasn't taught in my high school.  I, like most people, started out believing in the bible's explanation on how humans got here.  It was only over time that I found that the bible's explanation was not plausible.  The earth was simply too old. There were too many extinct creatures. There was too much rather obvious local adaptation by animals to believe that some super natural being (or alien) was sitting around tweaking some caterpillar to look like the local vegetation in South America that had only been growing there for the past 8 million years. 

As time went on, evolution and natural selection became more and more compelling as causes of where the bio-diversity we have came from. And even once I was convinced that the theory of evolution was fact, more evidence still came my way. Just a few years ago when DNA came to be better understood there would be occasional reports on how scientists tweaked some gene in some animal to produce a radically different animal.  Then came Mitochondrial DNA tracking in which we can tell when one species was another and when.

But such evidence doesn't exist in the same form for the theory of gravity.  Luckily, the bible doesn't speak about it (which is odd since gravity is a pretty crucial thing that you would think a super being would want to talk about unless of course the writings were not by a higher being but rather by pre-industrial humans with a limited understanding of their environments but I digress).

26,045 views 56 replies
Reply #1 Top
What I find frustrating is the apparent need to CHOOSE one explanation over another. I find myself quite comfortable believing in BOTH explanations. When quantum mechanics developed, it did not require us to throw out our understanding of an atom as a bunch of tiny little electrons orbiting around a nucleus in nice little rings. The older concept of the atom explained much about how chemical reactions occur and was very useful as a tool to understand the basic science of atoms. I don't see any great movement to force people to forego the simple model for one that may be closer to the truth.

In the same way, the creation story told in the Bible, describes the beginning of the world we know - to a point. It does not require higher level math or a degree in astrophysics to understand. It serves a purpose. I see the theory of evolution as refining upon the creation story. providing the detail that is missing. Let's face it, the creation story in the Bible is what, a couple of hundred words? There's not a lot of room for details. It's more of an "Executive Summary."
Reply #2 Top
Notice the drift from well-targeted complaint to generalized bloviating around here? The overall tone has shifted from one of pursuasion to an emotion saturated "Myrrander vs. Preacherman" style snidefest. In my opinion, anyway. What happens after such a change is the bombs stop hitting extremists, and start lumping in moderate folks who haven't done anything to deserve it.

No offense, Brad, and I understand your beef. I think, however, that part of the problem is each side panning what the other believes. If people were left to believe what they wanted, and the area between them stayed respectful and nicely swept, we wouldn't have all these problems.

Reply #3 Top

I'm not interested in the specific case that you mention about intelligent design.  My issue has to do with the general discussion about whether intelligent design should be given time in public schools.

Moreover, I'm not demonizing anyone here.  I think I make my case plainly:  People have a hard time letting go of their religious beliefs despite contrary evidence.

The people who complain about evolution are complaining about it IMO not because the theory is "flawed" or "full of holes" but because it contradicts their religious faith.  Because you certainly don't hear people piping up about the theory of gravity being taught in schools.

Reply #4 Top
"People have a hard time letting go of their religious beliefs despite contrary evidence."

If I wanted to get into it, I could troll for hours on totally secular, "scientific" beliefs that were held to for far too long in the face of contrary evidence. I could also point out scientific beliefs that were contrary to "common sense", and which in the end succumbed to it (and which did considerable damage to the human race as a whole in the meantime).

Belief is no one's business, frankly, until those beliefs are imposed. You've been around higher education as much or more than me, and I'm sure you've seen first-hand how not only is it next to impossible to get anyone to accept unpopular ideas, it can be self-destructive to even propose them. You can't, for an instant, call modern science "open minded" on the whole, because it is most often based on a ton of a priori ideas about the universe.

That's not to say that beliefs need equal time, or even need to be taught at all. It is, though GOOD science to tell kids that they should come to their own conclusions and not swallow anything from either side based upon the authority of a teacher or researcher.

I'm not trying to divert the subject. To me the subject here is that science is open-minded and religion isn't. Science has shown itself to be just as political, intellectually entrenched, and biased as any collective human endeavor.

Reply #5 Top

If I wanted to get into it, I could troll for hours on totally secular, "scientific" beliefs that were held to for far too long in the face of contrary evidence

I am not arguing that secular beliefs are better either.  Communism, Eugenics, etc. are all secular belief structures too. But they're not THEORIES.

It's pretty rare for a theory to be overturned (though it happens).  I agree that beliefs should not be imposed, which is why I don't agree with those who feel that intelligent design should be taught in the class room.

Reply #6 Top

I agree that beliefs should not be imposed, which is why I don't agree with those who feel that intelligent design should be taught in the class room.

But what about in Philosophy?  I agree that it does not have, the legs of Evolution, but why are you so against it from any persepective?

Reply #7 Top

I am all for Intelligent design being taught in a philosophy class.  I don't have a problem with intelligent design per se, I have a problem with intelligent design being taught in a science class.

Or more to the point:

I have a problem with HYPOTHESIS's being taught in a science class. Intelligent design is a hypothesis. Therefore I do not want intelligent design taught in a science class.

I don't appreciate some people saying I'm anti-religious just because their pet hypothesis don't pass muster as science.

 

Reply #8 Top
You just want to deal with fact. Great. Can you say that scientists don't CONSTANTLY refer to God and religious beliefs? Why does science ever bother to refer to God? I've read Hawking, and Sagan. I recently watched a really good documentary on Watson and Crick, and damned if they didn't bring God up.

Why is this? Isn't it irrational to pull belief into a scientific treatise? Should I dig out Cosmos, a book that is suggested to kids as reading material and found about every school library. Sagan addresses people's beliefs about God there while contrasting it to what doesn't necessarily even beg contrast.

People don't fight a theory of gravity because it isn't being used to ridicule and demean them. I *dare* you to go and read the ongoing discussions here and pretend that people aren't using evolution to make values judgements about people's religous beliefs.

So, go and propose that Gravity invalidates people's spiritual beliefs, and I bet you'll find that the premise of your article is wrong. What I find disheartening is the fact that you and others can't see the call and response here. Unless you understand the provocation, you'll never understand the reaction.

Reply #9 Top

I have a problem with HYPOTHESIS's being taught in a science class. Intelligent design is a hypothesis. Therefore I do not want intelligent design taught in a science class.

Is it a hypothesis, or an Hypothesis?

No matter, you read my article I see.  Good then we actually do agree on basics, just not in the grander scheme (i.e. Mankind is not alone).

And that is fine.  One of us will be proven wrong one day.  I am not going to lay a wager on either of us being alive to collect the bet when it happens.

Reply #10 Top
I think it is hypotheses, (-ees) but I haven't looked it up. Best guess, given what I assume to be a Latin derivation.
Reply #11 Top
P.S. I'm not telling you what you can and can't say, I just think that

a) most of this isn't even about school and such, as this article kind of hints at, and

b) that it will go nowhere unless people address the fact that scientists address God and Religion constantly, and without addressing the call you'll never get the response.

Reply #12 Top

Reply By: BakerStreet

Posted: Saturday, August 13, 2005
I think it is hypotheses, (-ees) but I haven't looked it up. Best guess, given what I assume to be a Latin derivation

Go talk to Chakgogka!  He is the english language expert!  I am just ignorant in that regard.

Reply #13 Top
I just think the crux of the comparison made here displays the lack of understanding of this issues cause and effect. Gravity isn't used by secularists and pop scientists to jab religion. Evolution is used for such.

I think if science were as neutral as it is made out to be, we wouldn't hear so much this kind of thing. They seem to have free reign to speculate about God, but when religious people speculate about science... OUTRAGE!!! I'm not saying ID needs to be in school, but in order to understand the situation you have to see it accurately.

Reply #14 Top
I'm glad to be able to post here, I haven't been able to in the past. I think you've made a very good argument here -- no, an outstanding one, as I'm quite green with how you've managed to write it.

People that feel this way don't want to kill or destroy religion -- I'm a firm believer in the right to believe any which way the collective "you" believes. The idea is to keep science pure, which means that astrology, alchemy, and any pseudosciences must be purged from the body of scientific work.

If proof for any of these, astrology or ID, comes about, then the nature of science is such that scientists will be forced to admit their error, and then soldier on. I think there are probably a lot of scientists who would like to prove a creator, but can't. If one should, and it should be a repeatable experiment, then science must, therefore, change.
Reply #15 Top
"Intelligent Gravitation" that is frigging priceless... I would give you an Insightful but what would be the point? Ah what the hell... *edit - Oddly it says that I have already given this article a rating and I hadn't.. I fear more JU wierdness in the offing mayhaps...
Reply #16 Top
Draginol, that was an excellent article. It puts it all in perspective.

For the record, I am somewhat religious. I go to the service every Friday evening, sometimes Saturday mornings, and I attend all festival services. I believe in G-d, but I know that belief has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a part of the world that G-d created. If I cannot reconcile that fact with my understanding of the Bible, that's certainly my problem, but it won't change reality.

Reply #17 Top
Exactly the point. Excellent.

BTW, you gave the equation for Force, not gravity. Gravity exerts force, but that is a byproduct of the equation. The equation is G = (M1M2)/R^2 where R = the Radius (or distance) between the objects and M1 = the mass of the first object and M2 is the mass of the second object.

Similiarily electricty and magnetism both use the same equation stated differently.

Religion is a guess. Guesses don't matter when you have cold hard facts (like walking on air, when you're falling at 9.8 m/s^2 off the top of a building and the ground is coming at you really quickly...). Throw away the guesses when you get facts and forget the guesses because they're guesses and have either been proven right or wrong, by the facts discovered and thus are now irrelivent. (see other post)

Andrew J. Brehm: Fantastic point of view. Terry Goodkind puts it this way: You're free to ignore reality, but you're not free to ignore the consequences of it.
Reply #18 Top
BTW, you gave the equation for Force, not gravity. Gravity exerts force, but that is a byproduct of the equation. The equation is G = (M1M2)/R^2 where R = the Radius (or distance) between the objects and M1 = the mass of the first object and M2 is the mass of the second object.

The classical two-body equation is usually written g = (m1 × m2) × G × r^-2 where g has units of force (Newtons = kg m s^-2) and G is the Newtonian gravitational constant (about 6.67300 × 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2).
Reply #19 Top
The problem I have with ID (and I am a regular churchgoer who believes in the existence of a Creator) is that it's a theory that can't be proved. You'll find various definitions, but most agree that the scientific method is characterized by testable hypotheses, reproducible results, and the ability to make predictions, all lacking in ID's case. BTW, I'm a long time reader of joeuser.com and enjoy Brad's writing, but in this case I believe he's mistaken. We don't know all the "whys" of gravity, but we know a lot about how it works. The theory of gravity has been tested---and modified--over many centuries, and the most famous scientists in history, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein, all made important contributions. Science tries to explain why, but it is not essential that it does.
Reply #20 Top

The problem I have with ID (and I am a regular churchgoer who believes in the existence of a Creator) is that it's a theory that can't be proved. You'll find various definitions, but most agree that the scientific method is characterized by testable hypotheses, reproducible results, and the ability to make predictions, all lacking in ID's case.

Ah!  But there you are wrong.  For while it may be just a theory or hypothesis, it is being proven in the labs every day.  Man is manipulating plants and animals to suit their own need.  Is that not, at least to the lower class of animals, playing god?  ID my be false, or it may be true.  In the end, if it is true, it will be proven to be true.

Reply #21 Top
You cannot prove that some super-being (or alien) was "guiding" evolution.
Reply #22 Top

You cannot prove that some super-being (or alien) was "guiding" evolution.

Not at this time, no.  hence it is not a fact.  In the future?  perhaps.  But as we (mankind) start playing God with life, it re-inforces the hypothesis.  it does not prove it.  But it suggests that it is a viable explanation.

Reply #23 Top
You wrote

> compared to the theory of gravity, evolution is rock hard fact.

Umm, Draginol, theories of gravity (from Aristotle to Galileo to Newton to Einstein) have made specific, quanitifiable, falsifiable predictions which were later disproven (in the case of Aristotle) or verified (Newton, Einstein). Care to name a similar specific, quantifiable, falsifiable prediction from the theory of evolution?
Reply #24 Top
Care to name a similar specific, quantifiable, falsifiable prediction from the theory of evolution?

Link
Pay special attention to the section "Some Statistics of Incongruent Phylogenetic Trees" for detailed, quantitative analysis.
Reply #25 Top

Not at this time, no. hence it is not a fact. In the future? perhaps. But as we (mankind) start playing God with life, it re-inforces the hypothesis. it does not prove it. But it suggests that it is a viable explanation.

No, even in the future we will not be able to prove that some super being was, over the past 3 billion years "guiding" evolution.