a sad sad day

I suppose if it were my child I'd have to know what really happened. As an educator...I'm sorry, student, but if you can't control yourself, you lose the privilege of participating in our fun activity. I would expect that tantrums would be waning when a child hits kindergarten at this child was...and...it's the end of kindergarten. It's not okay to throw books, boxes, and physically harm people, no matter what age you are.

I guess I would have just got the rest of my kids out of the room, called the principal, and let her have her tantrum and have mom pick her up myself, but I wasn't in the situation. Are we not supposed to have standards? Am I as a teacher supposed to let a student jeopardize my safety not to mention the other students? It's bull crap.

It's a fine line. I don't know about police involvement...but if it was the only way to control this child...then so be it. When it comes down to it...what parents let children get away with at home is what shows up at school. I see it all the time. It's not EVERY child, mind you, but most of them...yeah. Parents, you gotta set limits for your kids. That's how you set them free.

Kinda hard to "set them free" from the back of a patrol car. I mean, If it took that much, I think the plastic ties and ankle cuffs were WAY outta line. Jesus Christ! Do you REALLY think ANYone would have THAT much trouble with a little tiny kid? I don't know about anyone else... But if it was my kid there would be more then ONE lawsuit in the works!!!

well i agree with your standards as a teacher saying that someone should have removed the child and the other children this is what happens at my daughters school if she breaks down however there shouldnt have been police involvment in my mind......i mean this is a 40lb child for pete sake pick her up and physicaly remove her i have had my daughter attack me way worse than this and never had to call police if you cant handle a 5 year old you shouldnt teach them in my mind should the child be punnished yes she should she be in cuff hell no think about what it had to have done to her do you think she will ever trust another cop most likely not
however the parent should either seek or keep seeking medical help for the baby and as i teacher why is it that most seem to reject the idea of mental health issues it seems to me that 95 precent of teachers out there want a special needs child removed from a class room and do not want them around so called normal children has it gotten to the point that our special children are not accepted in society and is this fair to teach a child born with a medical condition that they cant be normal to many want to say it is us as parents that we do not live structured lives or disapline our children but come on now have you seen any child without a medical problem cause this much damage i havent any child capable of this ammount of anger is surely in need of help not cuffs.

i tottaly agree with you i cant imagin what this lil baby is thinking about police right now heaven forbid she is ever lost or kidnap shell never tell a police officer i bet......god bless her and her mom i hope they win millions and i hope it opens millions of eyes to the minds of children that arent bad but only need help what is up with teachers thinking they are the parents are parents not good enough any more seems everyone wants to put us down there is no village rasing a child only a society that wants to so call weed out the bad kids and send them up because heaven forbid we should teach them they are good enough to be around all those prim and proper children that would be sin..........to many out there want to act like there child never got upset bull every child does so hell lets just have a gaurd in every home and say "now lil pettie if you scream where gonna have to put you in the cell"........just plain stupid!

I think the comment the mother made is interesting..."they set my baby up." I don't know this educator, and I don't know this child.

Who knows how often this child goes off on a tirade? Have you considered that? Have you considered that maybe the teacher has asked this mother over and over and over to bring this child to a doctor for medical intervention? I don't write prescriptions as a teacher. There's a whole process involved. Maybe this teacher has repeatedly asked this mother in to discuss this child's progress and the mother never shows.

I don't understand why it's always the educator or the school that's wrong. Why is that? Earlier this year I had a student in my class who went home having a hissy fit for no apparent reason. Her parents then proceeded to accuse me of allowing the "worst" to happen to their child. It's my fault. Yup. Obivously the child could never be trying to play us off of one another and create conflict. Nope. My fault. And its bull.

And how long should this child be allowed to terrify his or her classmates, teachers, etc. before something is done? Any normal educator or administrator would have done the best he/she could, but there comes a point where you just cannot allow this to happen any longer and there has to be some sort of intervention, if nothign else for the child's OWN safety, you know? This child could very well have injured himself severely if allowed to continue, and that's not okay either.

If this had happened to my child...I guess I would have to be aware that my child had been misbehaving in the first place and then reacted in a way that is not acceptable, and continued to act that way until there was no other option. I don't care what the kid is thinking about police...this kid made a choice to behave in a manner that could have hurt him or her and hoardes of other people.

ON THE OTHER HAND...I will say that there are educators out there and administrators out there who are mean-hearted and don't know how to handle students very well (in fact, I have oen in my very own building). BUT...I don't think that most would call the police on a five year old unless there was absolutely NO OTHER OPTION.

And we don't know the whole story with this kid...we don't know his/her history in this classroom, his/her family background, etc. And also....we weren't there during this situation either. You might have been standing in the doorway, or gotten socked by this kid, and YOU might think that it's time to call the cops, too.

And...this mother probably would have sued had someone picked her up and removed her. You just can't touch kids like that. You can't.

well you are right its not always they teachers fault and i didnt intend to say it that way i only mean the ones who respond with I CAN SPOT THE BAD ONES i hate that phrase there are wonderful teachers out there i am lucky to know some
i believe that we are always tryin to blame someone or atleast that is my experiance truth it sometimes there is no blame only a condition and yes with ODD children to tend to play adults off one another i have seen it in my family i parise the good teachers out there and your probably right if the teacher had removed her the mother would have been upset but probably not as upset i guess we just dont know to bad we cant find the mother and chat im sure that would be intresting maybe the mother has tried to get help i know it took years for someone to listen to me but i still say no 5 yr old should be cuffed if they needed a officer they should have taken the other students away and let it work it self out it works with my daughter when she is in an out rage either i go to the school and hold her untill its over or she can go to an empty room and scream run yell and bitch untill she switches modes i am not sure about this child as i dont know her or her mom but i know with my daughter bi polar she doesnt remeber these thing just so hard not knowing the whole story huh?

And...this mother probably would have sued had someone picked her up and removed her. You just can't touch kids like that. You can't.

I just left a comment on DrGuy's thread about this event, and my response was much the same as yours, Marcie. The teachers did the right thing in calling the cops....they were probably afraid that if they tried to restain that child themselves they'd get charged with assault or sued...and given the mother's attitude towards the entire situation I'd their fears were warranted.
This could probably have been handled in a better way, yes...but I think that the police and the teachers both did what they thought was the right thing at the time.

I guess I shouldn't say that you can't touch kids...because I do all the time...if a kid is crying or something I touch them...I had a girl get kicked in the lip yesterday (by complete accident) and she was bleeding a little and so I stood behind her and held her up against me till she calmed down and I could talk to her...but if a child is ANGRY...that's another thing. And my kids know they get one hug a day at the end of the day...I bet some of my kids never get a hug otherwise.

And this article says nothing about this child having any sort of emotional disability or special needs...that's a whole nother deal. We'll never find that out. To me it sounds like a kid went nuts for no apparent reason, and this kid has a sue-happy mother, since of course the teacher and administrators worked cohesively to "set the baby up". If the child has a disability and an IEP, that's one thing, but if the child went berserk without an identified disability, that's a whole other meatloaf.

abby...you talked about teachers not wanting kids with special needs in their classrooms. For the most part, I'd say that's true. But I don't want a special needs kid in my room because they're more work or whatever, I just don't feel like I have enough training to help children with special needs succeed. If I'm still at this school next year and I'm still in first grade I'm taking a hearing impaired student for sure...but I'm comfortable with HIP kids because I work with their teacher alot, help out with their IEP's, etc. I would have a hard time with a kid who had a severe emotional problem because I don't know what to do...you know?

I hope that makes sense. I'm not happy with where I am as far as my knowledge of interventions for kids that have special needs...and I'm working on it the best I can.

I commented as well on Dr.Guy's post, and I can find no reason to side with the parent or child in this case, even without the additional information that is lacking ( or being assumed ).

The child was a hazard to herself and others and had to be restrained for her own safety, as well as others, the educators ( wisely, I must add ) chose to have law enforcement handle the restraint.

I agree that the educators were probably afraid of touching the child, but I still think that the cuffs and squad car were a bit much. I think once the police were there, there could have been alternative actions to be taken that would not have been quite so traumatizing to the little girl.

i commend you for your honesty see thats all i want i agree if a teacjer feels unqualifed to handle a child then another arrangments should be made and yes your post make perfect sence to me your right we will never know if this child has troubles
but i do know how hard it is i feel sorry for those who arent loved at home its sad see that just goes on the parent no two ways about that i only feel that with so many parents and teachers laying blame both parites should be more concerned as to why a child acts out weather its mental physical or emotional i always try to keep in mind that this could be my child at some point these condition are awful at times and yes she has been recommended for instituions but i havent given up on her and i wont i know its my duty to do all i can b4 giving up like i said if this is a situation where the child is treated unfairly then shame on the mother for not paying attention i knew right away my mary was diffrent and yes alot of parents live in denile no doubt but i also hope that if this mother is trying to get help it comes soon i sure would like to know this family and wander what she means by set up she almost acts like it was planned no doubt odd really so many points of view and not enough info

well a thought occured to me just now as i was cleaning and i thought id ask it here as well, a lot of people on this topic have said the words sue happy mother, so heres a thought and id like some oppions on it. just say that this stiuation occured at home and the lil girl threw a fit at home with her sisters and brothes and mom there now the mom calls the police instead of spanking the child becuase we all know this isnt accepted anymore, now say the grand mother finds out this 5 year old grand daughter of hers has been taken away in cuffs and sues the mom and the police is this a sue happy grand mother? or a grand mother who is doing what is right by fighting for her grand daughters rights i hope this thought comes across right i am not sure i have explained it the way i am trying to but id like some thoughts on it ? just wondering if the veiw would be diffrent if it was only a family involvement thing?

Well we're back to being "politically correct" "cant spank your kid" "thats not politically correct' 'gotta put em in timeout" BULLSHIT take off that belt and wear that hind end OUT!! let em know who the parent is and where they stand on the food chain. Stop being your kids best friend and be the parent. Thats why we have that program "The Nanny" on TV cuz parents are too afraid of discipling the kids the way they see fit for fear of getting sued or some such crap cuz it's not P.C. ....well P.C. THIS!!!
I wish i had a dollar for everytime i had a belt taken to me ya know what it made me respect my parents and i'm 38 and still afraid of em.
We need to take back this country from disciplining kids to making people that move to the USA learn the frickin language to STOP with the frivalous lawsuits ... if you burn yourself with McDonald's coffee, put some Noxema on it and move on with your life, and there's a whole host of other things.
This country's lost it's backbone and if we dont find it real quick we're gonna be sorry.
just my opinion i welcome yours.
Jerr~

Frankly, I don't think that a grandmother could sue a mother who has full custody of a child. And a child who is completely not all there isn't going to respond to a spanking either. If there's no way to get your child under control, then yeah, call the cops I guess. They can get you in touch with people that have those psychology degrees, etc.

I don't think it's okay for a child to be afraid of a parent...but I think a child needs to know that there are firm limits on behavior and if that child goes out of those boundaries that there will be consequences. You may do this or this, but those are your only options. You can choose to get your homework done now or you can do it after dinner, but it will be finished tonight. You can choose to vacuum the living room now or after lunch. Those sorts of things...do you want carrots or peas for dinner? It gives the child some sort of power in the decision.

Maybe this teacher in question could have told the child that she was taking away the jelly beans that she could have them back in a few minutes if she could get herself under control. The kids in my class know that if they play with our learning tools that they put them back. I'll ask them in a few minutes if they think they can control themselves, and usually they say yes. They know if they say know that's fine, too...I appreciate their honesty. After that few minute break, most of my kids are good to go again because they were reminded of my expectations...

I'm babbling...this is a tough case...I wouldn't know what to do either.

Lawsuits?
Id like to know how you could file a lawsuit against a school when they call the police on your child who is destroying property, endangering and physically harming others.

As teachers, I cant leave the classroom with my students, leaving one in there...because that is another safety issue. While going on their little "I want it my way or else" tirade, they might get hurt and if I take the kids out of the class, and that kid gets hurt...then Im also liable. I could send my kids to another classroom, but that also is an issue because then one teacher would be in charge of 40+ kids which technically is over the legal limits (which Im sure some lawsuit happy person would love to file a suit).

I had two girls who have been a thorn in my side since I came into the classroom. Day after day, there was physical hitting, slapping, pinching, punching, kicking...etc. All of this is behind my back. Im not saying I didnt see it, so it didnt happen. Because, when you have a majority of the class who is complaiing about one student in general...then you know it is happened. I have seen it happen sometimes as well, and i have seen the physical leftovers of the hitting. So what did I do? I finally kicked both of them out of the classroom, they were suspended for that week. Later, I had one of the students parent come up to me, that day, and he just went off on me. He totally started yelling and screaming at me to the point where i kicked him, too, out of my room. That shut him up. I wish I could just tell him, make him open his eyes, that here they are, both parents yelling at me, and they cant seem to understand where their child gets their anger issues from. They also seem to be so, mislead by their daycare...because the daycare doesnt report any issues.

Lemme tell you, if you are a parent, most likely, your daycare wont report any behavior issue because....student = $$. If you complain about that student, you lose that $$. I dont get paid for each child i have in my class, and I dont care...so Im going to tell you if your child is a behavior issue.

I think calling the police was a perfeclty fine thing to do with this kind of behavior. The school doesnt want to be at fault because they are protecting the teachers and students. As far as tying the kid up with the plastic line...that was too much....but I wasnt there. Kids when they throw tantrums, come out swinging. Either way, the police are dinked....because if they didnt restrain the kid....more stuff could happen, if they did, then it would look like it does now.

It really ticks me off that if a student is hurting others, I cant really go up and stop it without the possibility of getting in trouble. If your daughter is beating the crap out of someone and I try to stop and she gets hurt somehow...you can sue me because I touched her. You can sue me becuase I tried to stop her from hurting others. What the hell?! Im not going to sit there and think to myself " ouch, that must have hurt, a punch right in the face....hmm, I should stop this...but I dont watn to get in trouble because...people will sue anyone for anything nowadays....OOOO...kick right in the groin....bleeding....hmmm.....maybe someone else will stop them....yeah lets hope for that"

Kids throw tantrums because you dont give them what they want. Plain and simple. In Kindergarten...I stop that right away, I dont let them do what they want. THey come up and ask me if they can do something and i tell them no...they ask why, and I tell them because I said so. When you say no, and they ask why...they are questioning your authority. Kids at home, need to hear NO more often and be able to handle it without throwing a fit.

yes i do agress with spankings but once had a social worker tell me i was abuseing my child for it so no we arent allowed to spank anymore and i dont even use a belt only my had it is true spankings made us respecy our parents but we arent allowed to now its to the point we spank our kid we go to jail but when the child acts out we are to blame for not displaining them so its a no win

wow i am amazed you probably dont even realize you have one of these special children in your class and i wouldnt want my daughter in your class seems to me your a lil to frim i mean a child isnt asking why becuase it questions authority hell you asked why as a child to didnt you so you say we shouldnt want our kids to learn and make their own choices i cant do that kids are no robots we cant program them to do say and walk the way we tell them to its wrong my children do have choices and i always explain why they can or cant have something wake up people this is a new day my mom spanked me and yes it was abusive the way she did it do a spank my child if she hits yes i do but in a bi polar rage hitting then isnt any better then what they do is it in these rage the child is out of control and unless you see it its point less to explaine to anyone this is not a tanturm this is something totaly diffrent i would dare you to walk into a child protective agency and spank a chil with a belt infront of them talk hateful take all their self thoughts away and tell them they are on a food chain and low on that see what they say i am willing to bet they take your child i know i have an autistic son and bi polar child and like i said i was told useing my hand on their butt was abusive my autistic son likes to sneak out at night however i can put a lock on the door becuase that is crule and if he sneaks out on me i get introuble for neglecting the system has parents in a never winning battle like i said we are abusive if we spank and blamed when a child misbehaves so there is no solution to this at all

Frankly, I don't think that a grandmother could sue a mother who has full custody of a child.

Usually litigation occurs when the plaintiff has been wronged in some way, either financially or physically (or even morally/mentally), and stands to gain monies from bringing suit. Now, the grandmother could sue on the child's behalf, or she could petition the court for custody - but she have to show documented abuse of have clear evidence that the mother was unfit to care for the child.

i wouldnt want my daughter in your class seems to me your a lil to frim

I'd want my kids in Marcies class. Absolutely. Teachers that are firm and that teach children right from wrong and exactly what kids need. This wishy washy touchy feely style of parenting and education has got us into this god-awful mess...we need a little firmness and discipline to get us out.

i was told useing my hand on their butt was abusive

And I'll bet it was a member of DSS or some similar agency that told you that, right?

Honey, please don't take offense at this...but could you try to use some punctuation? I really want to read and discuss this with you, but I'm having a hard time reading what you write. Please don't think I'm being mean; I'm not intending to come across that way.....I just have a hard time telling where one sentence ends and another begins. Putting a period or a comma in here and there would help the both of us get into a good chat about this.....

Dharma,
I think Abby was talking about my class.

Abby,
I meant that some students, I frequently have the following conversation: "Mr. G, Can I go somewhere else...Im done with my stuff." "no you cant, you know the rules, there is no free choice" "But Im done" "show me your work" "here it is" "you are not done, you didnt do what I asked you to do" "But I dont want to be there any more" "well I dont want to be here today" "But, Im BOOOORED" "stop whining and get back to work, do what I asked you to do" ......(minutes later) "Ok im done now...can I go somewhere else" "is there free choice" ".........no" "what do you do when you are done with your work " "I dont know" "yes you do" "I grab a piece of paper and walk the room?" "yes" "But I dont want to do that, i want to go to kitchen!" "nope" "BUT I dont want to do that, its boring" "so, Life can be boring sometimes, we dont always get what we want."

I mean...I have conversattions with kids where they keep asking why. "go do your work" "why" "because" "why" "because" "but I dont want to" "do it" "no" "I told you to go and do your work" "why". This goes on and on. Its ok for students to ask why...but when I tell them to do something and they dont want to, and start whining about it and keep asking me why over and over again, that is where it crosses the line.

Also...before I was surplused and brought down into this classroom, students were jumping off of tables, did what they want...spoke without raising their hands...etc. The list goes on. When I came down, the other K teacher no longer had to close her door because our class was too noisy. I laid down the law. The students who dont like me and who have told me so, are the ones who no longer are allowed to act like 3 year olds. If teachers cant be firm, how do you expect your child to learn?

I dont take anything away from them. I just make them respect me as an adult because they sometimes have a hard time grasping the concept that after their parents drop them off at school, that I am in charge and I am the boss and they must listen to me.

i am sorry about punctuation. i am dyslexic and sometimes type way to fast for thought,i do apologize to you.
i will try to do better thanks for everyones comments they are very intresting.

and yes,it was someone from a thing called family preservation,a place that is supose to help you handle special needs children with behavior disorders.

TO ZIGGY
i would like to apologize, i think i misunderstood you before,and now that you have given me an exaple a can agree in that situation would be firm to.no i do not let my child beg either i explane something once and thats it! if you disobey there will be a punishment but i still believe a child should at first be given a choice.