I am truly sorry to hear this, believe me. But IMHO this is not only caused by the community that is just getting meaner. I would claim that I'm a regular at these boards ( come here almost everyday ) and try to look through most of the interesting posts, and one thing I feel I have noticed is that your posting less and less on the forums and when you do post nowadays it's usually short ( both to tone and message ).

Perhaps people then feel that they have to scream louder in order to get your attention which in turn leads to some of these ugly posts. I would bet that if you in your first post had also written "Let us know if this is bothering you and we'll try to balance it" or something to that extent, you would get a completely different kind of responses in this thread that you got.

Please note that I'm IN NO WAY saying that your obligated to do this, neither posting on these forums at all or updating the game for that matter. I understand that this service is complimentary and I appreciate it immensely. I'm just trying to put forward my idea of why it might be that you feel the forums are getting more hostile towards you guys.

I would also like to remind you guys! of the many "I LOVE YOU AND WISH TO HAVE YOUR CHILD" threads that you have gotten previously ( altough they, unfortunately for you, were mostly written by 40 year-old bald men ), please do not forget them. But alas, I guess it's in human nature to brush of the good comments while pondering on the bad .

/ Falaffel
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[Message Edited]

It's late at night, but this is troubling. Some players don't feel they are being heard, but the Galciv people don't feel that all they do is ever enough to satisfy the masses. This is obviously a bad impass. The outcome of such a situation in the worst case is that the dev team will stop listening and the players will basically stop asking. That will be the death of our little community. So, while I do not have the answers, I do have some observations.

One, the players must concede that they are being listened to. This is very obvious from all the updates and the presence of Frogboy participating in the community and the Metaverse.

Two, that there have been some seemingly last minute rushes to implement new things into the public Stardock betas that have not been tested to any real extent in an attempt to satisfy the hard core players who make their opinions known the most.

Knee-jerk reactionism on either the player of developer side is very unproductive for all concerned. Players hastily reacting in such a fashion tend to be rude and makes the dev team defensive. If there is a real problem that needs a real solution right now, then the player should be prepared to back up the claim with a save file or two with some commentary on what is happening and when that is causing the problem. Then trust that the dev team knows what to fix and when to fix it, and if it can be/should be fixed.

Over-reactionism on the dev team side should be handled by pulling the public beta that was overcorrected. Let the real testers and the Drengin.net people who want the latest and the greatest pound it for a longer time. After the meat is tenderized (i.e. more fully tested), then feed it to the lions. As was said before in another post, the dev team must also realize that they are respected by most of the players. Do not let any dark clouds erase the moments of sunlight. There is just a cycle of mistrust and growing pains that have to be worked through.

Well, I don't do my best writing at 2:40 AM, so I am sorry if I was not more definitive. But please try to understand where everyone is coming from before this gets to be nothing but a mean-spirited headache. Good night, Galcivers.

OP here.

This thread has gotten pretty ugly, and I'm surprised to see it ugly on both sides. You guys that are attacking the devs ("lazy") are way out of line. Like I said above, this game has far and away the best AI I've ever seen. The support, updates, feedback and bug fixes have been outstanding. I've been a stardock fan since the OS/2 days, and you will not find a company that supports it's customers better than this. As far as I'm concerned, the 1.04 patch was superb except for the TG nerf, and that is a balance issue, not a bug. Frogboy, you are getting understandably frustrated, but I think you have to admit a few points. 1) Your postings lately have been pretty terse and even somewhat negative. 2) You've had it really good compared to, say, Quicksilver. 3) The TG nerf was done without beta tester feedback. None of this is any call to attack you guys.

Perspective: For players, remember, it's just a game; don't get too excited about it. For the devs, it's the product of a lot of hours of your work; resist the urge to get defensive when someone criticizes it. It's different when they attack you personally, I don't really understand why folks would do that.

Scott

Oh, good lord, you've got selective amnesia. This is the same board that I've been accused of being a drooling fanboy for defending a lot of the changes Brad and Co. have made to the game. When things are good, I heap praise on Stardock, but when they're not, I call it like I see them.

Releasing this trade good nerf *without* any beta testing is what ticked me off. When you've got people like me who paid our own money to be a beta tester and the devs just go ahead and make a major change to game mechanics with zero external testing, that harms trust in the devs.

And whether Brad likes it or not, the strong reactions to these changes show we actually care. I've been playing this game almost every day for close to two months and I still care. So, if I get a little hot under the collar at both the obvious reactionary nerfing based on the extreme behaviors of a minute percentage of the players and the lack of testing these changes adequately, that's called constructive criticism.

-----

As for others, well, I'm not going to waste my time going around praising random players - I've got better things to do with my time - and the others that I've criticised: I had my reasons, I don't regret a thing I've said to or about them, and I'd say it all over again. I'm not here to win the personality contest, I'm here to give my feedback, good and bad, to the game to see it made better. Certain personalities on this board clash with mine, that's nothing new in the history of public boards.

lol

For someone who claims to have done a lot of competition on the internet, you sure seem to have a poor idea of how communities such as this one work. You nerf, people bitch. It's an old story. If you post on here, you're going to get flamed. We paid our 50$ so we have the right to bitch. You also have the right to be a big man and ignore people who don't have anything constructive to say. Think about your duty to the people that bought the game, and the way you are representing your company.

After reading all these posts, if I was Brad and company, I would NOT post any more updates to the game. Who needs the grief??

I would finish the announced expansion pack, and move onto a new project.
What is the point in supporting a gaming community when the gaming community becomes rude and insulting and doesn't support you ??? (I mean who do you rude and insulting people think you are? Reality Check: You paid your money already! -> you are now at the mercy of StarDock! THINK before you speak!!. You catch more flies with honey, and we need Stardock to LIKE us in order to improve the game.)

sprinkled throughout these "Brad and Company Bashing posts" were some people that thought the new update was okay... maybe we'll be lucky and they'll continue updating ...

...let the flaming of me commence! I don't mind being the lightning rod if you'll leave Brad and Company alone ...

Only one thing I can think of to add: It is apparent to me that Brad and team have indeed been wonderful at responding to issues we as the players bring up. Think about the PQ+% ability...got nerfed, then got rebalanced, and rebalanced again...now I think most people feel like that ability is balanced. Same thing with the Battle Hammer ship...got nerfed, rebalanced, and rebalanced again. If the community feels like Trade Goods have been unbalanced by the latest changes, then just say so without getting angry or resorting to name-calling or any other such nonsense. Unlike most games, you don't have to insult and bully and attack to get your voice heard...just respond to the changes, post feedback, and wait for response from the team.

As far as the issue is concerned, one of the big complaints I have read so far is that Trade Goods are not valued high enough to lease them, meaning their value is not comparable to the 2-3k leasing payment over many months. My initial response to that is...don't lease them! Maybe they were never intended to be worth that much! Just build them normally, and maybe lease when they get close...now I know that on higher difficulty levels this is quite a bit harder, but maybe this simply calls for adjusting strategies, rather than really being a broken feature. Just my two cents!

And, BTW, thanks Frogboy and all for all your hard work, but more importantly, for taking the time to listen and be willing to work hard to make this great game even greater!

After sleeping on it, I can understand the theory behind the trade good nerf. I think it went a little too far with maybe a rebalance in order such as has been done on the BH, PQ etc. Particularly on the lower levels, trade goods are a great way to overcome mistakes, level the playing field, and in general help learn the game by seeing the percentages at work, flipping trade goods for techs or cash to several different races.

I'm also comfortable with keeing it the way it is now for masochistic level. All bets should be off in maso. Now I just need to figure out how to beat new maso. Staffa seems to have it down - two wins yesterday is impressive.

~SDC~

Stranger than the "trade price versus leasing cost" would be the "perceived trade value versus benefits" issue. You'd think the AI would be more willing to trade its goods (considering that it doesn't lose the benefit, except in the case of diplomatic translators where it loses the benefit but only relative to those to whom it was traded) and more eager to get at least certain ones (because of their increased power; Aphrodisiacs and Diplo Translators carry some hefty percentiles on 'em); somewhere there should be an acceptable middle ground which recognizes that both sides can benefit rather significantly.

"You nerf, people bitch. It's an old story. If you post on here, you're going to get flamed. We paid our 50$ so we have the right to bitch."

Wrong, nothing gives you the 'right' to bitch other than your own desire to be obnoxious, rude and unreasonable. Amazing how the Internet makes people feel the anonymous nature of forums, etc. gives them a free reign to treat people in ways no one would treat someone else in the 'real world'.

The problem isn't the feedback. The problem is the way the feedback came back for this update. Out comes yet another update, the support has been nothing short of phenomenal for this product. In trying to fix what definately WAS a loophole (I could guarantee I could have even to start, 4 trade goods before any other race, and could trade techs like crazy for 'em), they overbalanced. Instead of trying to explain the issues some people had with this ONE ISSUE out of tons of fixes, they go off on the dev team, calling them 'lazy', complaining about how they didn't bother to properly test this 'nerf' before released.. the posts were just nasty! People like this irritate the hell out of me. Knew someone just like this RL. You could treat her like a queen, but the first screw up, even if minor, and she was all over them like you blew up her car, stole her bf, fired her from her job, and burned her house down. There is such a thing as decency, benefit of the doubt, common curtesy, etc. Instead, people feel the 'Net gives them license to act like arrogent jerks with incredibly short term memory.

You are dead wrong if you think other computer games receive this level of support. Quick email replies to problems, personally working with individuals to fix issues, fast and furious updates as WELL as ADDED FEATURES based on user requests, free expansion on the way, the CEO taking his time to post here, respond to worries and issues; this sort of support is incredibly rare in the gaming industry.

Comparing this support to MOO3's code patch (which of course, is so far, a vaporpatch.. of course, the game has only been out 3 months now!) is sad. MOO3 has had pathetic support from day one. From rude artists coming on to lash back at a disgruntled community, to a data patch that came with the disclaimer of 'this is something you modders could have done', it has been TERRIBLE. Don't even begin to compare a NON EXISTANT patch to the # of patches that has been released with this game. Do you really think, even for a moment, that the huge # of fixes in the MOO3 code patch will be bug free and balanced? Muahahaa! Please... once it is released, there will be PLENTY of issues, and the community will be lucky to see a second patch in another 3 months, IF EVER! Don't compare ANY game to MOO3 in fact.. that is a train wreck of a game that MIGHT be playable in the long run if it continues to receive intensive support. And it won't. Amazon is currently essentially giving MOO3 away for free. Yup.. we have a real winner here!

Most games don't even bother working more than half heartedly at updates once their game has sold the majority of units. Some take 2 months for the first patch, and that is the only one you see.

So do complain, notice problems, report them.. but at least do so without coming across as arrogent know-it-all 'i spent a whopping 40 bucks so I am entitled the world' attitude.

And ma$e, if you spent 50 bucks, you were of course, ripped off, since everyone was selling it for 39 bucks from the get go. Nothing like saying you payed more for a product than you did to blow it out of proportion, nosiree!

Sometimes I wonder about people.. cripes, how in the world did humanity survive even as long as it did.

fleabitfox

Everyone's getting too worked up. In short: think of each patch as a new challange. Change your way of thinking. If trade goods aren't worth trading anymore then don't build them, unless you need the bonuses. It's as simple as that. Find other ways to win.
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About the moo3 thing, for me the telling difference is
that I havent posted or visited the moo3 forum in 2 months, much less played the game

Of course I liked the 1.04 patch, so im not even
one these people gripping about it.

Looking back over this thread, I'm trying hard to figure out why we have the slews of "apologists" complaining about the rudeness and unwarranted Brad & Stardock bashing. Were some of us blunt about what we didn't like? Sure, but with the exception of the one profanity laden post, I can't say that I see another post in here that was personal or insulting. It seems as though there are a lot of you, and Stardock is as guilty as this as anyone, who only want to read about happy things in regards to this game. Well, feedback isn't all going to be positive.

Further, I would ask Brad to take a look in the mirror before he whines about our tone. He started a thread a few days ago with no other purpose than to tell us that the most vocal on here (because they're generally the higher ranking players) are insignificant and irrelevant to the game and that he wasn't going to change the game or Stardock's efforts around those players. This defensive stance on Stardock's part is then aggravated when so many of the unpopular changes to game mechanics are driven by what this insignificant and irrelevant group of players are doing to the detriment of the other 99% of the players Brad claims he's doing these updates for.

Anyhoo, I'm done with this particular venting session. I'll wait to see how the 1.04.059 changes things before I comment further on this tender subject

dang double post
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Im insignificant and irrelevant!

I love you too codemonkey!

"the most vocal on here (because they're generally the higher ranking players) are insignificant and irrelevant"

That's clearly not what he meant- I think that is obvious to just about everyone. I'm sorry if its damaging to your ego that the devs dont cater to your every demand.

I am yet another person upset at Trade Goods being nerfed. Their name itself is now ironic, they are basically for your own use and never worth trading.

Maybe the AI plays by the "same rules" that we do.
However, the AI (Drengin esp) seems to know exactly how much they can extort from every AI and how often... causing an AI to always be leading early on.

Trade goods were the one balancer... I could get AIs to fight among themselves, declare peace, etc...

I was always wary of giving a potential enemy Diplo Translators or something that would give them a big kick, there was always a proper cost/benefit.

I'm going to play a few games at 1.04 before I decide, but for sure my entire way of playing will have to change. (Oh yeah, despite my whining I'm happy with the Devs in general for making a fun working game that has good updates...)
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Exactly xiahou.. I think it is rather hilarious that a few players feel that since the dev *has* taken the time to respond to posts and listen to requests, that they are now entitled to act as if the dev exists to cater to THEIR particular whims as if they speak for the entirity of the GalCiv playing community.

As I said in another thread.. GalCiv does not revolve around Codemonkey and a few others. You think they patched it wrong.. you feel it is not balanced right.. fine, that is your opinion. YOU ARE NOT THE MAJORITY! You are a few players that feel a loophole that was closed no longer lets you cakewalk. tisk.

It was nerfed a bit to much.. big whoop. It'll be fixed, Brad has even stated so. People are peeved not at requests or problems you have, but rather the blunt, nasty tone you are taking. Cripes.. you are acting as if you have never experienced ACTUAL support for a software game. We don't need a few vocal smuckerheads ruining it for everyone simply because ONE FEATURE doesn't meet your 'standards'.

Again.. the CEO of a software design company hardly needs to cater to your personal whims, get off your high horse.

fleabitfox

High horse? I express an opinion on a public message board that happens to actually have devs that read it as opposed to ignore it as most devs do and that magically means I'm not entitled to be as blunt (or as gushing) as I feel is appropriate?

I know who needs to get off his high horse and it's certainly not me.

There's been plenty of long posts on the matter already, and I tried to be brief, but I failed and so I here's another long post :

Re: The negative reaction from some folks "sucking the fun" out of doing updates to the game.

Regrettably, this sort of thing has become very common in the gamer-developer interaction part of a lot of gaming communities. This community (in part due to the age group of GalCiv's audience and in part due to the quality of the product and continuing support) is not experiencing it as severely as most (if you've ever seen the Warcraft 3 or MOO 3 forums, you know what I mean), but there's still enough to seriously erode developer morale over time. Not long ago I was still intent on pursuing a career in game design/coding, but I've lost a lot of my interest in that path because of this trend and a number of other factors.

I hope all you folks at Stardock understand, despite the negative feedback that you sometimes get from parts of the audience, that your work really is appreciated

Re: Conduct on the forum

I could go into quite a lecture on this, but fleabitfox has saved me most of the effort (I would not have put it quite the way he did, but close enough). Some things I would like to say, though:

Code Monkey, I'm sorry to single you out, but it's much easier than speaking to each one acting like you individually: I know you're not out to win any popularity/personality contests, which is just as well, but the truth of the matter is that in nearly all your posts that I've read you come across as rude, arrogant, and unappreciative (i.e. taking all of Stardock's efforts and GalCiv's good points for granted and harping on the flaws) ... it isn't fair of me to view you that way, but it takes a lot of effort and patience to do otherwise. I realize you probably don't care about my perception of your character, which is just as well, but I get the impression that you do care about being listened to when you speak (or post), so I think you might care that because of how you come across I generally don't read your posts. I imagine I'm not the only one, and that it's quite possible some of the Stardock crew would rather not read what often could be quite aptly described as "vitriol".

To those criticizing the game and/or its developers: Take care not to over-react if the developers make a decision you feel is a mistake, just let them know and hopefully both you and they will come to a better understanding of the issue (and it gets fixed if need be). Be blunt if you absolutely must, but remember that the line between "blunt" and "rude" can be quite thin indeed. Even if the developers do fubar something horribly, be forgiving, they're doing their best

Briefly to the "apologists" (it's not the word I would use, but you know who you are) : Take care not to over-react to people making criticism, do not lump them all together into "whiners" or such without exceptionally good reason, do not accuse them of saying things they did not say (one would get the impression from some of these posts that everyone complaining about the trade goods thing was calling the devs 'lazy', which was not the case), and try not to get too annoyed with them, little good can come of it.

To everyone, if you will indulge my apparently out-dated sensibilities, for I feel this strikes at the very heart of the matter:
"Love one another as you love yourself."

Many of you may scoff at such a notion, and it is your decision to make... but I ask you to reconsider, for I assure you that evil will come of anything you do without love.

i do not like the trade goods nerf. thx for the rest of your good work!

With all due respect... I'm not a hardcore player, not even close, but I still play and enjoy the game very much. I just simply set the A.I. to a level that I can contend with.

I also play Chessmaster a lot and I don't set the computer A.I. to GrandMaster level and then expect to win by setting some simple traps.

I think the main problem that some people including myselves have with the changes is the wild pendulum swings in difficulty level without enough testing as to the consequence of the change.

This very same thing happened with Moo3 except in the opposite direction. The AI was more or less castrated about 2 weeks prior to release. The result was an AI that you literally could not lose to, even on the impossible levels (save for a senate defeat). The reason this fix was put in was apparently the AI was more or less impossible to beat.

The fear I have with the massochistic level is that the big equalizer is probably gone, and that means the only type of win you could probably hope to muster is a tech victory through cheese (taking out a world from a civ with Final Frontier). The reason being the mathematics are so stilted against the player (huge AI econ advantage, nothing gained from trading your trade goods, etc). Often times those trade goods were your only hope in maintaining any kind of parity with the AI. This leaves the cheesy "starfighter" gambit as your only viable solution until you're able to rush towards Dreads. With any luck, the AI isn't bringing out Avatars, Overlords and the like. The only other perceivable way to keep up is to CTRL-N your way to a lucky starting position, -or- attempt to bring down alot of worlds in a hurry (thus stealing techs that way). The second solution is risky because it assumes you somehow have superior military firepower.

I can understand taking masachistic to the toughest, but don't make it to where it is literally impossible to beat through the so-called normal means.

PS- It should be apparent to those who see my scores, that I'm not exactly a hardcore player either...

I think most games with an 'impossible', 'masochistic' or other incredibly difficult settings should be VERY difficult if not impossible to win except by the extremely skilled with perhaps a bit of luck to boot. It is supposed to be a nearly impossible challange.

As long as there are levels that CAN be beat even by those with not nearly as much TBS skill, as well as levels that are challaning for those of middling skill, the game is FINE. I agree the trade good should be fixed the way it is going to be fixed.

Simple point being made that there is no reason to get nasty with the devs as if they hadn't been addressing issues from day 1, releasing updates, and getting involved with Joe Public in person. Honest is ok. No one is asking people to kiss someones rear. Just asking for a little tact and tolerance, that's all.

fleabitfox

To compare the support and updates that Stardock has provided for GalCiv with Moo3 development is utterly perposterous.