Fundamentalists Event - It's Broken

The idea of a new minor race popping up by overthrowing the yoke of evil empires on a few planets is a cool idea. In principle, I like it, I welcome it. In practice, though, it often destroys my games.

The event is way unbalanced, at times beyond absurd. I have seen the Fundies ovethrow ENTIRE empires. They have never completely wiped out my empire, but they have taken 80% of my planets on the worst occasions. This is out of control. The implementation of this event is broken.

Who's idea of fun is this anyway? If I want to let a single roll of the dice determine the outcome of my game, I would go and play monopoly. This is supposed to be a strategy game, and that it is, except when certain way-too-powerful events steamroll over the game balance. Then it's reduced to a dice throw. Blah.

It doesn't matter whether I benefit or suffer from this event. I've come to despise it. The Draginol event, with ONE system going rogue, that's balanced. And you get a warning! The Dread Lords... if you've had enough espionage spending, you can avoid it. The Fundies just up and strike, totally at random, no warning, no redemption, no way to protect yourself if you are evil, no way to limit the damage. And when playing as good, I don't want to be handed a cheese victory on a silver platter either. I want to play the game!


SUGGESTED FIX:

The fundamentalists should be limited to a maximum number of systems taken over per empire, tied to map size and/or fertility settings.

Count "Abundant" as +1 map size.
Count "Normal" habitability as the default.
Count "Occasional" and "Uncommon" as -1 map size.
Count "Rare" as -2 map size.

Then cap the Fundies as follows:

Small or lower: Maximum 1 system per Evil empire to the Fundies.
Medium or Large: Maximum 2 systems lost per empire.
Huge: Maximum 3 systems lost per empire.
Gigantic: Maximum 4 systems lost per empire.
Gigantic with Abundant fertility, max 5 systems lost.

Never allow the Fundies to take over more than half of any empire, including no worlds taken over if an empire has only one system.


Unless and until this event is brought under control in its scope, I will consider it a blight on the game design, a bug to be corrected by ignoring it: reloading a saved game to undo it. I normally frown on reloading to undo random events and strategic mistakes, but I've had it with the Fundies wrecking my games. My strategy and my choices should be the dominant factor in every game of GalCiv, not some out of control roll of the dice.


Thank you for tuning in to this rant. Have a nice day. :)


- Sirian
1,701 views 37 replies
Reply #1 Top
I strongly disagree with the statement that this event is brkoen. I actually like it the way it is now. Note that I didn't like the nerfing of events like space sharks in the early days and wouldn't like that either.

You have to remember this:
Fundies is the main price you pay for being evil (that the good guys don't like you is not so much of a concern in my opinion, since you know it and can target them first). Therefore, I might even argue that it doesn't happen often enough. If it occurred everytime, it wouldn't be a random event, only its timing would be random.
So, I certainly don't want such an event to be nerfed. I once lost more than half my systems, including the best ones, to the fundies, and managed to recover them all plussome of the (formerly) Drengin stars. If you can't, you're not able to adapt your strategy to random events and should probably consider getting rid of all of them, including the good ones (there are TBS games where there is no luck involved except sometimes for the map, f.e. civEvo, which is free by the way).

My strategy and my choices should be the dominant factor in every game of GalCiv, not some out of control roll of the dice.
End of quote

If you really want your strategy to matter, do not remove the event, play a strategy which will avoid the event from harming you (i.e. play good or neutral instead of evil). Pretending this event is a roll of dice-killer is simply wrong, because you can choose a strategy which is 100% sure to avoid the problem. If not you gamble. It's then up to you to decide whether you want to reload because your gamble didn't pay.


[Message Edited]
Reply #2 Top
saying it's not a problem because you can work around it sounds like something I'd here from a shifty engineering software vendor. I'm evil and certainly accept the random even of these people taking over a slew of my planets without warning or battle, they simply show up. Last time they took 2/3 of my planets upon arrival, THEN I had an opportunity to deal with them. I agree with Sirian, they are given too much when they show up.

The suggestion to cap them as a function of map size or your current status is fine, but I'd be more impressed if they showed up as a small armada and tried to colonize, transport, and battle their way onto the map. Of course their armada size should be calculated to give the evil doers a fari shake at possible defeating them.

if LDiCesare's post made much sense we may as well just scrap the opportunity to be evil. If everyone plays around it, why even enable it?

But so the newbees don't get frightened off from embracing evil, the fundies have never defeated me. Even when they started with 2/3 of my planets they submitted to bribery and became my buddies in attacking the Arceans! :D
(then I party palaced the fundies into non-existance!)

Evil just tastes better
Reply #3 Top
My point was
1) it's not broken because I always recovered from it so it's not a game-killer.
2) it is not random because you made a decision in order to get this event deal you damage. Thus the assertion that strategy had no matter in this event breaking the game was false. I was not refuting that the event was a problem, but the fact that it had nothing to do with strategy. It has, it is totally linked to strategy. If you play evil, be ready to face it. Keep some ships with combat transports out of orbit near some of your core systems so you can retake tehm in case fundies happen. Adjust your strategy by preparing for it if you need to. The +12PQ you got from worms in comparison with the 'good' choice allow you to do this. You can even extort money from the fundies on the way so if you paly correctly, it can end up giving you more cash and weakening other evil civs.
3) -most important- it is not a problem to me because I find it FUN the way it is (not because you can work around it). I love it when a whole evil empire is totally destroyed by the fundies. It forces me to adapt.

If you think the event is not fun, remove it. But please don't nerf it. Some of us like strong events that change the gameplay and make a galciv game different from the previous one.

Anyway, I think the best thing would be to classify events as petty/major and allow an option to choose if hyou want no events, petty events or petty and major events. But please understand that I like the event the way it is, therefore I don't want it removed or nerfed. Note that, with this option, there could be a petty fundy event in which the number of systems taken would be limited.
[Message Edited]
Reply #4 Top
Sirian, I'm sorry, but the event is not broken. It is fair and important, and you're just waining. A bit blunt, maybe, but still very true.

As was stated before, the fundies are a key random event that can change the entire game. It is SUPPOSDED to turn entire empires upsides down. Yes, it will sometime turn an entire AI empire to the fundies - which is GOOD. This is a good idea, and it is executed well. Just like morality shifts can ruin your entire day. The fact is that the fundies are supposed to be something the calibar of the I-LEAGUE. They need a huge initial push. They don't conquer new planets and they have no way to do it otherwise, so they are supposed to take over so many systems. What's this crap about max 5 systems? Dude, I saw evil empires with 20+ systems on rare. Losing five systems out of that, when they have hardly any protection or ships, is not going to do anything to them.

Play around it, or suggest a good, practical re-design (for example, I would make the fundies event almost as common as the I-league poping up, then a chance every turn an evil colony will move to them unless they are properly taken care of).

the fact is evil is too powerful in this game as it is, and the fundies event need to be overwhelming. Which makes perfect design sense. You gain HUGE temporary advantages in terms of random events and extra bonuses for the risk in the long range to spur up the fundies and lose planets. In fact, I would like to see the fundies event occur slightly more often, and if needed even twice in a game if the fundies were conquered by the evil empires again.
Reply #5 Top
But the goodies get extra points anyway!
Fair would be similar points for morality.
Fair would be simlar benefits from events.
Fair would be evil fundies attacking the goodies.

hmmmmm... there's always dissenters in reality...
everyopne should be attacked by opposing fundies...
:notsure:
Reply #6 Top
The goodies don't get anything, besides easier diplomatic relationships. Certainly not points.
Reply #10 Top
Fundamentalists have never been a problem for me. In about 8 games where I have played Evil, I have yet to lose a single planet to them.

I think the key is keeping morale high (which I do for production / tax purposes)... a neat side effect is that I've been thus far immune to both the Fundies and the I-League.

I would vote for keeping the event as is...

-Cypher
Reply #11 Top
Well, I play pure good on gigantic maso, and set all opponents to pure evil. I see fundies maybe 20%-30% of the time. Really wipes out my cultural overthrow strategy (they are damn hard to flip), especially if I happen to be trading with them so I can't just attack a few key points.

So now I plan for the possibility of the event, that's all. I consider it *major* possibility, and I like the idea.

I have played evil and lost virtually my entire empire, so I don't play evil anymore -- kinda the price you pay.

I would like to see a similar event that affects a good government of democracy or federalism -- call it Liberal Fascism. A political party led by Lyndon Larouche-ies take control of local politics in a sweeping series of victories. Suddenly the local governments of half your planets are run by liberal fascists who are evil at heart and Bingo! Revolution!

(hehehehe)
Reply #12 Top
Fundamentalist are my friends they wipe out entire AI's for me, I pay them to do the dirty work, so back off!!! from my friends LOL I will not let anyone harm them, they are sweet and friendly people, they just hate evil, so they are good in my book. ;)
Reply #13 Top
I agree with LDiCesare... Fundies taking you over is a risk you take, if you play evil. It's the primary deterant, as far as I'm concerned from my experiences with the game.

I've had games where the Fundies took everything but one of my worlds, and wiped out 2 AIs. Makes for a very different game. And I've had other games where they were just an irritant.

I think overall, Star Dock has that event about right. If you don't like it, load up a prior turn, and do a few different things, and you shouldn't get the Fundies popping up again, should you?
Reply #14 Top
Fundamentalists have never been a problem for me. In about 8 games where I have played Evil, I have yet to lose a single planet to them.

I think the key is keeping morale high (which I do for production / tax purposes)... a neat side effect is that I've been thus far immune to both the Fundies and the I-League.
End of quote


The Fundies event that broke the camel's back and led me to post this rant took place when my entire civ was parked on 100% morale. Seven systems, fourteen planets, went to the Fundies. They all had 100% morale, because ALL of my planets had 100% morale. I had every single morale trade good in the game, plus morale bonus picks, plus three morale resources mined by starbases. I had over +300% morale boost. Why, then, did the Fundies get any of my worlds if they only hit low morale?

So much for that theory, eh? :)



The goodies don't get anything, besides easier diplomatic relationships.
End of quote


That's like saying the President of the United States doesn't control anything, besides the most powerful military and economic nation on the planet.

Trade Centers are the best non-wonder improvement in the game, BY FAR, and there are several other noteworthy good-only items and advantages. 10% extra morale boost from Cure For Depression, an extra speed from Hyperwarp, two more trade routes than neutral civs, the Trade Monument. All this for taking a few penalties on planets, which may not even matter much, or for taking a few minor hits to the pocketbook from those easy-to-absorb middle and late game events that cost only money, when you've got money to burn anyway.


the fact is evil is too powerful in this game as it is
End of quote


LOL Are we talking about the same game here?

There are only two differences between good and evil in this game: who you'll have a devil of a time making friends with, and the minor effects of the rewards/penalties attached to the morality choice events.

You are WAY WAYYYYYYYYYY overvaluing the occasional PQ boost from an event. If the map layout breaks slightly differently, and by luck you get one extra PQ20 planet in your range, compared to a different map... That's worth more than the boost of THREE PQ events, which are themselves fairly rare anyway. I've not gotten more than three of those in the same game. Most games I get one or two, and some I don't get any. The rest of the evil bonuses are chump change by comparison.

The random luck of the draw on the map itself far outweighs the impact of the evil bonuses. A couple of hits on Ctrl-M can hand a good player a situation twice as beneficial as what an evil player who plays what he is handed is sitting on AFTER the bonuses are implemented. And you take none of this into account in your analysis of the issue.

Morality events only pop up for about one in three planets you settle, and any effect (always only a single effect) applies only to that planet. Relative to your entire civilization, it's penny ante, except for the PQ events. One of those on a rare map can turn the game, but on most maps they just improve the terrain luck a little bit.

So where do you get the idea that "evil is already too powerful"? You do realize, do you not, that your alignment does not affect your strategy. Heck, it doesn't even affect your tech usage. If you can trade for The Dark Side with a civ who researches it, you can sit on Saintly 100 perfect good and still build the Life Force Power. How's that for logic. You can assemble and use terror stars, use WMD on planetary invasions, whatever. NONE of that brings penalties to the "good" alignment player.

Evil isn't any more powerful in this game than good. Quite the opposite, evil has significant DISadvantages built in, aside from the Fundies event. Eating some (or even all) of the minor penalties on the morality events is made up for by the fact that other good civs will almost never bully you around when you are good, and will come to your aid in wars far more quickly and readily. Evil civs respect only power. If you are evil, other evil civs only buddy up to you if you are strong. I've literally been sitting on Demonic Zero in some games and been unable to get the Drengin to stop targetting me. That NEVER happens when playing good. The other good alignment civs always cozy up.

Resources go down the tubes when you take on extra wars with those who should be your friends, but aren't because evil still fights evil. Those costs can more than erase the benefits gained in those morality events. So when you poohpooh the value of those "easier diplomatic relationships", you are distorting the facts and wandering off into lala land.

The benefits of the morality events when the evil options are chosen are minor, while the penalities of possibly having no friends at all are major. If you play huge or gigantic maps, the fact that alignment bottoms out at 0 provides a loophole. Pure evil can drop to zero and then enjoy more and more benefits for no additional costs, but sitting that far down, your political options with the other civs are curtailed. Yet I am not talking only about gigantic maps and pure evil. I'm talking in general, all settings, map sizes, and flavors of evil. One can be deemed "evil" by the Fundies, having taken only ONE SINGLE EVIL CHOICE in one morality event. How's that for balanced?

Perhaps if the alignment costs to playing "good" were more restricting -- no acquisition or use of evil techs, no terror stars, restricted WMD usage, no use of bribes to foment wars, etc -- then we could sit down and talk about the "need" for a catastrophic random event to bring comeuppance to evil civs.


I don't view good and evil in this game as meaningful. The game design does not embrace role playing. Stardock made it expressly clear that they did not want to go that route. They put good and evil into small boxes, specifically limited the impact on the game, and treated them like flavors of ice cream.

If you like variety, you can enjoy all the flavors. OH WAIT. They put fish oil in some of the chocolate cartons. If you don't want to risk tasting fish oil, you had better stick to vanilla and strawberry. OH YEAH, THAT MAKES SENSE. Not.

There are a limited number of alignment-based techs and options. Both good AND evil get two techs apiece that boost trade routes (penalizing the neutral player, in fact). Evil gets Master Race and Mind Terror Weapons, minor boosts to soldiering. Good gets Cure for Depression and the strong Trade Centers (if you get up over 90 alignment rating). Evil can build the Life Force Power if they are evil enough. These are interesting bits, but all minor.

The real value and significance of alignment is the diplomatics, the politics. Those vary per map, based on who is closer to you, who grows larger and fatter because they have more/better systems in their space, etc.

All other things being equal, playing good is easier. The benefits are stronger and the alliances much more stable. But what happens if the Altarians got stuck in a corner and have only three systems, while the Torians drew bad land and have only four, and both are far from you, while the Drengin, right next to your space, have twelve systems. Those good civs can't really help you. If you can't improve relations with the Drengin, you are in trouble.

So, what's the deal supposed to be? In order to be effective in sucking up to the most dangerous rivals, the player has to choose his alignment BASED ON THE PARTICULARS OF THE GIVEN MAP. Canned gameplans need not apply, unless they want to wimp out and Ctrl-N their way to situations they can handle, or else simply eat the losing game when the map hands them evil superpowers and runaway evil empires.

If you are limiting your evaluation of choice of alignment to the minor, often insignificant rewards/penalties of the morality events, you are missing the big picture.

The diplomatics are the best part of GalCiv, setting it apart from lesser games where the AI's are all the same and there's no way to try to choose your friends. The fact that this one random event undermines what is otherwise a skillfully crafted balance is intrusive on my gaming experience.


We're talking about Russian Roulette here. That's all, nothing more grand or meaningful. Evil civs are the only ones who have to play, too.

I have played evil and lost virtually my entire empire, so I don't play evil anymore -- kinda the price you pay.
End of quote


Ridiculous.

it is not random because you made a decision in order to get this event deal you damage.
End of quote


Nobody who responded in this thread to disagree with my position has bothered to notice that I'm equally unhappy with this event when I play good. Did you guys bother to read my entire argument? Watching a random event take out the opposition is not my idea of entertainment. I find that far more insulting to my gaming experience than when it happens to me directly.

I have literally been losing a game and then had it handed to me on a silver platter by this event. My opponents had to put the gun to their heads, and BANG, it went off that time. No more opponents. Kill off the last few planets the Fundies didn't take out, and the Good Alliance prevails. Oh yay. Yippee. Wow, what a satisfying victory. :notsure: I invest a whole day of my life into playing a game of GalCiv, so I can watch one roll of the dice take out the opposition. Brilliant game element? Balanced gameplay? Cool feature? "The price I have to pay"? I don't think so.

If I wanted to let a single dice roll determine the outcome, I don't need the game to do it for me. I could grab my own dice here at home, roll a D6, and every time it rolls a 6, declare myself "winner" if I am good or "loser" if I am evil. Hey, don't even have to bother with GalCiv! Just cut to the chase, roll the dice, then go do something else with the time I save.


if LDiCesare's post made much sense we may as well just scrap the opportunity to be evil. If everyone plays around it, why even enable it?
End of quote


Exactly.

The suggestion to "keep some transports floating in space" as a workaround to the event is BEYOND INSULTING. That's not strategy, it's exploiting the game design. It makes no sense whatsoever to the context of the event. If the situation depicted by the event were to happen in reality, the evil leaders would never park billions of people in space waiting for the planets to revolt. They'd send in the secret police and suppress it before it could flower. Why don't we get the chance to do THAT?

This event is broken.


- Sirian
Reply #15 Top
The Fundies event that broke the camel's back and led me to post this rant took place when my entire civ was parked on 100% morale. Seven systems, fourteen planets, went to the Fundies. They all had 100% morale, because ALL of my planets had 100% morale. I had every single morale trade good in the game, plus morale bonus picks, plus three morale resources mined by starbases. I had over +300% morale boost. Why, then, did the Fundies get any of my worlds if they only hit low morale?So much for that theory, eh?
End of quote


I think you're cooking up stories to one up someone. I have never had a 100% morale planet flip fundie. Ever. The chance may not be zero but don't expect a second thought from anyone if you are gonna rant, be a smart alek and play loose with the facts to do so.
Reply #16 Top
This event has never seemed broken to me.

I've never lost a planet to fundies and I've seen them enough, plus they have never ruled a game for me.
I play as good, so that means the Fundies have turned up when my alignment was anywhere from neutral to saintly. My my morale isn't always high either, and yet I've never managed to lose a planet to the Fundies.

Sirian I agree with Pontius, how bout restricting your arguements to facts and not colourful fictions.

~SDC~
Reply #17 Top
The event can indeed be devastating. In one game I was playing Evil and in the fight of my life against the allied Altarians and Torians. Suddenly , the Fundies roll in and take 6 of my 9 systems. I lost the game , my Manufacturing Capital, Economic Capital, Technological Capital and Political Capital went poof in one turn. Out of funding , capital ships and good planets I was hosed.

~SDC~
Reply #18 Top
The Drezioli event (sp? or whatever thier called you know the one "There is a evil vibe growing on the planet Uranus Prime, we should leave Uranus alone etc etc . . . ) is definately broken,

That's all I can say for sure? lol . . . smirk

[Message Edited]
Reply #19 Top
The suggestion to "keep some transports floating in space" as a workaround to the event is BEYOND INSULTING. That's not strategy, it's exploiting the game design.
End of quote


It is by no means an insult. It is just a proposal to show that you can counteract the event. From my point of view, CtrlN is beyond cheating because you abuse the fact that you can always restart. I don't tell people who suggest to use a game feature that they are insulting.
Again, I think your main point is you don't like game-breaking events, in any direction, so please read what I said, because I suggested a solution, which is to separate events into categories pett/major. If you don't like events that change the game a lot, switching off major events would be the way to go.
IMO the most unbalanced event is not the fundies, but the UP vote for sharing techs. This one can totally change the game, and there is not much you can do to control it either (though you have more control than on the Fundies).

As for good being easier, I agree. In almost all my games, except for the lucky map, the Altarian-Torian alliance end up surviving last.
I think that you can choose a strategy based on alignment, however, but I'm not sure it's the best way to play: If you choose evil, you need a military, and you're better off fighting early and preferably a good civ in order to isolate any other good civ out there.
I also agree with the fact that the alignment requirements for techs are badly implemented, since it makes no sense gameplay-wise to choose evil when you can get the evil tech and stay good, and vice versa.
Reply #20 Top
You wrote a very long essay, Sirian, and I agree with you on several points. There should certainly be more distinction between the two sides, and no side should be able to acquire the techs of the other side.

I also agree wity you that the fact you need to adapt your ideology to the political structure in every game is also somewhat misrepresentative. I am not sure I would do it differently - after all, it makes sense to adapt your political decision according to the political map of the game. In addition, you get cool ideology-changing random events that can turn the game upside down.

However, it does not matter.

You are seriously underestimating the strength of the evil character and his advantages. The +PQ event is important, but evil characters also get huge bonuses to construction, ship quality (getting +50% starship bonus can be GAME-TURNING) and things like extra population ,morale and so on. Another huge advantage is while the bonus you get from being good is fixed (a small bonus to diplomacy and relationship), you can have a morallity rating of 0 and still continue to get evil events which constantly bolser you. This is especially true if you're playing common or very common yellow stars, which means you will be getting a shitload of more powerful planets.

I'm sorry, I still think the entire Fundies random event is a perfect way to solve some of the balance issues between the two sides. From a design point of view, it makes PERFECT sense. Short term advantages for the risk of a powerful, dangerous catastrophe further in the game.

If you want to address the balance between the two sides, I agree we can talk about restricting the good side a bit more. But the fundies event is designed perfectly, and fits the entire game concept. It should not be touched.
Reply #22 Top
If you don't like the UP vote for sharing tech, join the UP an vote against it!
End of quote


I love that vote on Maso as for 4/5 of the game, I'm behind. HEHE. SHARE THE TECH, SHARE THE TECH BABY.
Reply #23 Top
Evil is better on smaller maps or rarer stars, while good is probably better on the larger maps with more abundant stars. If you have only three planets, then getting a +40% PQ event has much more effect on your empire's prospects than if you have twenty planets.
Reply #24 Top
I think you're cooking up stories to one up someone.
End of quote


This isn't about you, Pontius.

I have never had a 100% morale planet flip fundie. Ever. The chance may not be zero but don't expect a second thought from anyone if you are gonna rant, be a smart alek and play loose with the facts to do so.
End of quote


Accusing me of lying? Funny thing, that. Ray just today posted news of losing systems with 100% morale in a massive Fundie uprising. Is he lying too?

http://www.galciv.com/forum.asp?BID=GF&id=100627#109328

The AI regularly runs on 100% morale. How are they losing planets, if 100% morale is a perfect shield? It only happens to them when their morale drops? Sorry, you're wrong. I've seen entire AI civs wiped out when all of their planets were on 100%.

Perhaps you aren't as expert on the game mechanics and possibilities as you seem to believe. In your defense, the game goes through regular patching and what you say may have been the case at one point. I don't know. Still, it's over the line to come attacking my integrity and character because I must be lying if what I say doesn't match your experiences exactly.


Sirian I agree with Pontius, how bout restricting your arguements to facts and not colourful fictions.
End of quote


Accusations of lying are serious business. I advise you not to toss them around so lightly. You place your own credibility on the line in attacking mine. Be a good idea to make darn sure you've got it right before taking that step.

Since you always play as good, Stydracos, of course you would never have lost a planet to the fundies. They only take over evil worlds. Your remarks do not appear to show that you understand the issue here.

Now to some, being handed a massive advantage on a silver platter (when the Fundies show up to take bites out of your evil enemies) could be seen as a good thing. I don't see it that way. I hate that even worse than being handed a disadvantage when they hit me while I am evil. It means a game I was enjoying competing against has suddenly been transformed into a cakewalk by one dice roll. That is not good game design or balance in my view. But then, I'm not focused on padding my Metaverse score, but on enjoying the game. If an alliance victory is at hand, I'll take my win and move on to the next game, and the Fundies practically hand you an alliance victory if you are good. Some others might see that differently and welcome a few free or easy cakewalks being handed out, or not see them as cakewalks if they still have to do as much work to get the same military conquest victory they always shoot for.


You are seriously underestimating the strength of the evil character and his advantages.
End of quote


No, I'm not. I explained the same point you did, Harel, that in a few situations, the Demonic Zero player gets major boosts. The only situations that happens for is the combination of large maps and high habitability.

Shall we discard any concern for balance for the rest of the game, because it is balanced OK for one aspect of one tiny fraction of the scenario permutations? I don't buy that.

If the Fundie event targetted only DEMONIC civs, that being anybody at 10 alignment or worse, then it might be a different issue. But it doesn't. It targets anybody at 49 or lower, as far as I can see. I've certainly been hit by it while still being well into the "neutral" range. So the same penalty is dished out to the player who took a single 1-point alignment hit (say, grabbing a 4% morale boost on one planet) and the guy who gets ten or fifteen boosts, including a bunch of the big 10-point alignment swing jobbers.

If the Fundie event scaled the number of planets it can take based on how evil you are, then that might also be a balanced way to do this.

You still have not addressed the fact that I don't like what this event does to my enemy when I am playing as good. That is a worse problem. It often means "game over", stealing my fun by taking away the opposition. If that happened once, chalk it up to an anomaly. With the Fundies, it happens over and over and over again. I do not like my games being handed to me by a dice roll. That is not a strategy game.


Evil is better on smaller maps or rarer stars, while good is probably better on the larger maps with more abundant stars.
End of quote


For some cases, yes, but not all. On those smaller maps and rarer stars, you can't be all that evil anyway. You get fewer events. What if you don't get any ten point alignment swings? What if you get only minor bonuses? You can still be well into the "Neutral" range as far as the music and the buttons tell you, but qualify as "evil" for the events targetting you. (I believe that is also true for the events that restrict "evil" trade routes).

If you have only three planets, then getting a +40% PQ event has much more effect on your empire's prospects than if you have twenty planets.
End of quote


Absolutely. But unless you are reloading to exploit the game in ridiculous fashion, you will only draw a PQ event about one in five. There are production events, morale events, research events, the bug wars event where evil is the only option not to get a penalty. There are starship events. And if you DO get a PQ event, sometimes the bonus is less significant. Plus if you settle PQ14's and PQ13's, even a 40% PQ boost may only turn them into a PQ19, far from a godly turn of events, though of course major if you only have three or four planets.

So what are the odds here? Maybe one in five to draw a PQ boost? Maybe half of those allow for a major shift? You only draw a morality event on 35% or so of planets you settle, that's about one in three. So... we're looking at about a one-in-twenty chance to get a PQ boost, and even lower odds that it will be major? For small/rare maps with only four planets available, that means one in five games where you get ONE PQ boost, unless you are reloading to skew the odds.

Heck, if you draw a couple of the bug wars events, and that's all you get on a small map, you can qualify as evil to be smacked by Fundie uprising WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED A SINGLE BONUS. Tell me that makes sense. :)

Now Harel has a point about a huge morale, starship or production bonus being significant, too. Still, with events only popping up for one in three planets, the typical small and/or rare game with four or five total planets won't even see you with enough alignment shifts to be labeled evil. The Fundies can still hit you, though, and hit you just as hard as if you were parked on Demonic Zero and continuing to reel in more benefits.

I agree that a LUCKY STREAK for evil, with the best of the available bonuses, can mean a lot more with just a few planets. I don't believe that these rare cases should dominate the issue, though. Perhaps the Fundies could be made more discriminating, rather than treating all "evil" the same.


Again, I think your main point is you don't like game-breaking events, in any direction, so please read what I said, because I suggested a solution, which is to separate events into categories pett/major.
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No, that's not it.

A) You're wrong about the tech-sharing event, because when new minors show up later in the game, they always show up with most if not all of the tech anybody anywhere has researched. This makes it nigh impossible to keep a tech lead, whether you are the player or the AI. Those behind can always exploit the new minors, who show up entirely defenseless and ready to be raked across the coals.

If the tech-sharing event were the only way for tech to be spread around, for those behind to be caught up, then I might agree. But because almost the same thing happens in every single game via late-game minors popping up, the tech-sharing UP Vote becomes less significant than you are making it out to be.

Not only that, but if you research off the beaten path of the AI military preference, then you actually come out the loser from a tech sharing event, even on Maso.

B) I don't have a problem with events that change the diplomatic balance of power, per se. Radical alignment shifts, or a "terrorist attack" or "assination" or "insulted the alien leader" events... those can upset the current balance of power, but none of them KILL OFF a major civilization.

Note that I did not post this rant the first time a Fundie event shattered a game. I can understand a rare or unusual confluence of events where an otherwise balanced game element can go awry. The Fundie event breaks game after game after game.

So your proposed solution targets too much for me, LDiCesare. I don't want all the catastrophic events nerfed, nor do I want a button to disable them all. I want the one that is broken to be fixed.


- Sirian
Reply #25 Top
A) You're wrong about the tech-sharing event, because when new minors show up later in the game, they always show up with most if not all of the tech anybody anywhere has researched. This makes it nigh impossible to keep a tech lead, whether you are the player or the AI. Those behind can always exploit the new minors, who show up entirely defenseless and ready to be raked across the coals.
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Actually, I saw it the other way around, where I have almost no tech the others don't have (often on maso) and suddenly am given dreadnought tech, which means AMM and game over I've won. Minors only get the techs I have, not those the ai has.

Back to fundies: I believed the number of systems lost was based on how evil you are. Now that may be a mistake. Or maybe each system is rolled individually, which means if you're unlucky you may lose everything which would be bad if it was the case. As I said, I like it when there are major turnovers. You say that that if the event targeted only demonic civs, it would make more sense. The big problem is we don't know the formula. Looking back at the figures you proposed, I still think they are wrong, because rare/abundant don't translate as +1/-2 stars but as twice as many ot twice less stars. A proportion of the planets based on the morality would be better, like 2* (abs(40 - morality))% of the planets, rounded to the nearest but leaving at least one planet.