Volt_Cruelerz Volt_Cruelerz

First Impressions from a Sins 1 Modder

First Impressions from a Sins 1 Modder

After playing a few games and digging through the data files, I figured I'd go ahead and give some general impressions.

Community Interaction

First off, I'm glad to see Yarlen and Blair continuing to post. That makes me hopeful for community interaction going forward.

Moddability

Oh hey, it's json files! That's actually an established file format! This is so much better than the not-yaml from the first game. I still wish we had schemas for the new stuff, but that can always be derivedEdit: we have confirmation that we will be getting the schemas!

But more importantly, constraints! Most notably, I see we already have...

  • logical wrappers
    • composite_not
    • composite_or
    • composite_and
  • has_buff
  • value_comparison
  • unit_passes_target_filter
  • distance_between_units_comparison
  • unit_passes_unit_constraint
  • has_mutation
  • autocast caster constraints
  • is_empowered
  • per_buff_memory_declaration
    • unit_variable_ids
    • float_variable_ids

Gameplay

Engine Upgrade

Do I need to talk about how much better the new engine is than the old one? I think we all know.

Weird Behavior

  • Strikecraft Docking: launch looks fine, but docking has them just vanish from open space weirdly. I don't know if this is a turn radius AI thing or what, but it looks weird.
  • Flak Burst: the text suggests it has friendly fire, but it doesn't seem that it does. Please change one or the other.
  • Pirate Base Component Slots: I feel like you should be able to stick things in there. Right now, they have a slot that you can't fill with anything.

Ship Design Changes

Overall, I'm a fan of these, but Cobalt takes the cake. I always hated the old design.

On that note, why the rebrand from Kodiaks to Harckas? As far as I can tell, everything else stayed the same, and the ships still have giant autocannons on them, so why the name change?

Garrisons

While I love the idea, I'm not sure about the implementation. I don't think they're terrible, but I feel like they missed the mark somehow. I wish I could explain why, sorry.

Update: As time as gone on, I think I like these more and more, especially with the dynamic phase lanes.

Trade & Refineries

I'm mostly fine with these changes, but I'll admit I liked the trade port income being impacted by the path length. It led to more planning of where to put logistic structures. That said, with dynamic maps, that's impractical these days. I do love the import point system though. That's cool.

As for refineries, I'm fine with the exotics system, though I suspect this was intended to interface more with the excavation upgrade, and I think most people will opt to just refine them instead of go digging for them.

Components

love these things. They make capital ships feel a lot more customizable. I don't have as strong of an opinion on them regarding planets, but I do think the UI should do a better job of telegraphing that they're not automatic buffs. At least on initial playthrough, I was very confused by this, but maybe that's just because there's no great game guide yet.

I think the Antimatter Engine is probably overpowered though. It may as well as make abilities free with how much it ups regen. On the other end, I think the Radiation Bomb and Salvage Kit won't see much use because of their limited charges.

My biggest concern here is how long they take to install. That's a lot of downtime for a hero unit to reload. Edit: looks like this has been changed.

I also haven't been able to figure out how to uninstall them if you misclick.

Disarming Ships

Why don't Provas and Krosovs have guns anymore? I get removing them from colony ships and Hoshikos, but I should think Krosovs should at least get light missiles, and I don't think a point defense gun on the Prova would be out of place. Is it just to keep the AI from throwing them into the meat grinder? Granted, I don't think either should be especially good at ship-to-ship combat, but the Prova being able to shoot down the odd incoming missile or the Krosov at least trying to throw its nukes at another ship makes sense to me.

Ship Survivability

I haven't exhaustively tested these yet, so I could be wrong, but I believe Shield Mitigation is now a flat percentage currently standardized based on unit type, and I assume the formula for armor is now 1/(1+MAX(0, armor - penetration)/100).

Edit: mitigation is a flat numerical reduction in damage, and armor is 1/(1+MAX(0, armor-penetration)/100).

Armor - Penetration vs Armor Types

The change from armor reducing damage by 5% to 1% is more intuitive, so this is a good change for new player clarity.

Likewise, the apparent pivot away from the armor types of the first game in favor of armor penetration is a substantial boon for new players. I vividly remember the time I learned LRFs did extra damage to LFs just because.

Using Penetration over armor types does have the downside of making balance between ship types harder to control due to fewer balancing dials you can tune in the future, but I'm glad for it nonetheless.

Shield Mitigation vs Point Defense

The biggest thing out of the gate for me is the change to Shield Mitigation. Mitigation is now a flat number without ramp. This makes it a lot more intuitive for new players, but doesn't handle the focus firing of capital ships as well. Considering capitals are hero ships (which you invest even more into than you did in the first game through the use of components, anything that reduces their survivability threatens to be unfun.

That said, there is one major defensive change, that I suspect is the exact reason mitigation got nerfed so hard: the introduction of point defense. In one game, I sent a level 4 Ragnarov upgraded with point defense to solo the pirate base, and during the process, it shot down every single missile. That is a remarkable level of survivability.

Throwing together a quick spreadsheet...

Amusingly, the rock-paper-scissors triangle of LF-LRF(LRC)-Flak remains functional on paper in Sins 2.

This pretty well matches my observations. With missiles, capitals are vulnerable, but they can be shot down, and assuming missiles make up roughly 50% of a fleet's DPS, those medium autocannons are only 28% efficient, meaning the Ragnarov is only taking ~14% of the original pirate fleet's DPS, and that's comparable to the realm of shield mitigation in the first game.

Point Defense Meta

Considering how impactful missiles are against capitals, I suspect they'll be a lot like bombers in the meta in the first game, but with one major difference: they don't get a first pass. Even if you had all the flak in the world, bomber spam could still nuke a single capital on its first pass before fleeing to rebuild. That doesn't apply to missiles. Yes, you could saturate flak defenses, but that makes flak vs missiles a threshold comparison, and I don't think that's a particularly fun interaction.

To be clear, I love the fact that point defense got added. It's really cool to watch, and it feels amazing to watch a Ragnarov take out half the DPS before it even arrives. I don't know that it should be perfectly effective though. Some sort of TEC research that allows missiles to take evasive maneuvers, dodging point defense X% of the time would probably help it a lot because missiles would always be able to do something, even before the saturation point. For the Vasari, this sort of tech seems essential, and thematically obvious.

Without the ability to dodge flak, I suspect the meta is likely to reach a point where the dominant play vs flak spam to protect capitals will be not to build more missile boats to saturate defenses, but to build more interceptors for the express purpose of drawing point defense aggro. Point defense guns deal 10 damage. Interceptors come in squadrons of 5 and have 170 hull. Even heavy torpedoes only have 50 hull, with lesser missiles having only 5.

Vasari

If phase missiles don't get the ability to eventually dodge incoming point defense, I'm going to be sorely disappointed. Provided they get that though, I think Vasari balance will handle the change from bypassing shield mitigation to point defense well, and I don't expect any major issues.

Advent

Ah, the Illuminator. Such an eternal threat to balance, and that was before point defense replaced shield mitigation. Assuming these ships come into Sins 2 in any form roughly comparable to the original, they're going to be a balance bugbear because not only can they engage more targets than the other long range frigates cruisers, they also get to bypass the main thing that would keep the Javelis and Kanrak in check. Basically, they get all the balance difficulties of both themselves and phase missiles!

For the sake of balance, I'm guessing Illuminator beams will probably be middling armor penetration (25-50), but that will mean they'll still have a very different interaction with flak than the other two races, so you'll probably need a different fleet composition against them. This could mean being sandwiched between an Advent and a non-Advent player will be difficult to pull off. Then again, LRFC come in later now, so maybe I'm overestimating the impact.

Edit: as I think about this more, perhaps it won't be so bad. Advent do love their strikecraft, so building flak against them will still be important, and part of the reason the Illuminators were such a problem was their side beams didn't ramp mitigation.

Conclusion

Overall, this is looking very good, it's surprisingly stable, and I'm looking forward to future updates.

52,440 views 33 replies
Reply #26 Top

@Unikraken (reply didn't work)
Allowing non-capital ships to gain a one-time flat bonus after passing a threshold could still be a way to give a nod to this concept though. Something trivial from gameplay perspective can still be flavorful. Ideally, you guys could make it a random draw on which buff is given. Adding a goofy text title with it would be icing on the cake.
Random concepts:
~ +1HP/sec regen [Mechanic]
~ +1 Armor [Shipwright]
~ +1 Shield-P/sec regen [Technician]
~ +1 Shield Mitigation [Tuner]
~ -1% ability cooldown [Experienced Crew]
~ +1 Antimatter/sec regen [Overclocker]
~ +1% Phase Jump speed [Marathoner]
~ +1% Ship move speed [Sprinter]
~ +1% Weapon Range [Sniper]
~ -1% Weapon cooldown [Brawler]

Rather than using the XP system, it'd be nice if it used the kill-count system. Setting this as a game option might be best though.

As for the non-combat ships, maybe a different counter for them?
Scouts: {Gravity Wells visited}
Support Ships: {Ships Repaired},{Ships Impeded}

Reply #27 Top

I've been continuing work on my simulator, and it really does seem like missile swarms tend to be pretty swingy: either you overwhelm the flak, or you don't. Since threshold comparisons are difficult to estimate and not especially fun to deal with, I maintain that something needs to be done.

After some thought, I think I've come up with a few options to make missiles more reliable against lategame flak without making flak useless. Any would need to be unlocked with tier 3 or 4 research.

  • Speed Boost: just making missiles faster would make them less likely to be shot down.
    • I see this as providing a mild boost, but it wouldn't shift things much unless the missiles become much faster because point defense guns have such short cooldowns already.
  • Multiple Warheads: after traveling some distance, have the missile separate into multiple missiles, meaning each has to be shot down independently.
    • This would tend to make the game such that you should assume you will never shoot down all the missiles, which means it's no longer a threshold comparison, and the game can be balanced around that.
    • We could similarly just double the number of missiles everything in the game launches in the first place, though this makes missiles trash against shields. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is something to note.
  • Bomb-Pumped Laser On-Death: If missiles are about to be shot down, they fire a beam of energy at the nearest ship within a smallish range, maybe 2000 or so.
    • This would mean that shooting them down removes some of their damage and forces it onto a suboptimal target (which is probably a tanky frontliner), but it doesn't do nothing.
  • Casaba Howitzer: when the missile closes within about 2000 units of its target, have it throw a spear of nuclear fire at it instead of exploding on impact.
    • This reduces the time flak has to shoot down the missile, similar to a speed boost, but because the battle space isn't just a 1-dimensional interaction, the closer a missile gets to the enemy fleet, the more individual point defense turrets it enters the range of, increasing the likelihood it gets shot down. By detonating well away from the enemy fleet, it will have been threatened by fewer flak turrets, making it more likely to survive long enough to deal damage.
    • I can see this being harder to balance than multiple warheads, so it might not be a good solution for everything, but I can see it as a capital ship and titan component since it feels fitting on the Marza or Ragnarov.

Overall, the best answer balance-wise is probably a bomb-pumped laser on death. It's reliable suboptimal damage to a suboptimal target that makes frontliners like heavy cruisers more important.

For the Vasari, I still think the best answer is to just let them phase jump through the flak damage, though it's probably best to say their baby phase drives are only single-use, meaning it can't dodge flak multiple times, and that then means it can't ignore shields.

Quoting Erebus6937, reply 26

@Unikraken (reply didn't work)
Allowing non-capital ships to gain a one-time flat bonus after passing a threshold could still be a way to give a nod to this concept though. Something trivial from gameplay perspective can still be flavorful. Ideally, you guys could make it a random draw on which buff is given. Adding a goofy text title with it would be icing on the cake.
Random concepts:
~ +1HP/sec regen [Mechanic]
~ +1 Armor [Shipwright]
~ +1 Shield-P/sec regen [Technician]
~ +1 Shield Mitigation [Tuner]
~ -1% ability cooldown [Experienced Crew]
~ +1 Antimatter/sec regen [Overclocker]
~ +1% Phase Jump speed [Marathoner]
~ +1% Ship move speed [Sprinter]
~ +1% Weapon Range [Sniper]
~ -1% Weapon cooldown [Brawler]

Rather than using the XP system, it'd be nice if it used the kill-count system. Setting this as a game option might be best though.

As for the non-combat ships, maybe a different counter for them?
Scouts: {Gravity Wells visited}
Support Ships: {Ships Repaired},{Ships Impeded}

That sounds more like something a mod would add, though at present, I don't think we have access to a random draw pool. We do have access to kill counts (see Warpath) though, so that's possible, at least.

Reply #28 Top

@Volt, I suggested it as something fun that would benefit the game as a game option. There's been a couple convos regarding it on the discord.

That said, whether the game is closer to rts or 4x is a dev decision. As a single player only, balance isn't a priority for me either.

As for whether it's possible to mod, I'll have to wait until others release mods so I can figure out what's possible using them as templates.

Reply #29 Top

Basic units do have or count kills, so while heroes - capships - take the exp from grav well, units doing the kills (missiles excluded hopefully) should be getting something.

Non-capships in general will still get destroyed. If vetting it up renders that one unit 1.1-1.2 combat effective, it is not terrible.

This is the thing that killed most rts fun - RA2, RA3 or CnC3 had rather impactful bonuses. However those were tied to value of stuff they destroyed, usually 3x-9x their own cost. (RA2 worked like that)

Rapid autoloader is not weak at all, if you want some proper overkill, do use 5 heavy slugs plus 1 autoloader. 40% passive bonus, 90% on top active one. 250 penetration on the gausses.

Repair unit is also not weak, because it has a passive bonus, that applies nonstop even during jumps. 30 or so on top, if on Kol with active armor means that you get much more effective repairs.

Games without unit exp ended up consistently bad. SIns 1 had only heroes gaining exp. Units and heroes gaining would be a novelty imo, but units themselves, depending on how veterancy is achieved and what kind of bonuses theyd get.

You could have even starbases and base structures gain exp based on their function or use /damage in combat.

There is an RTS in the making SCII-like called Zero Space (suposed to release in circa 2 years)- there are heroes like in WC3, combat and movement looks like SCII, units do get vet, just like the hero. It is a different kind of game than yours, but like in SC-2 campaign, each unit type has 2 tiers of upgrades of : 1 or 2 and 3 or 4, fixed for the rest of the game. (SCII campaign had such system - like Bunker - add 150hp (400 to 550 or hp stays, but bunker adds an MG turret, only one 1 or 2 option))

You do have a sort of more customization with capships here via the slots. There are some that result in a visible change like say on titan getting PD, missiles. But stuff like repair, autoloader, and such generic upgrades, you do not get a visual change.

I didnt play that thing, but some of the mechanics (except those 'global' abilities-sounds like a tabletop 'magic' thing per game or turn) but mechanics-wise there are things you could take a look at (that one looks pretty solid tbh) and see if there are things you like there that could perhaps introduce something more unit types reminiscent of RL (granted, this one plays like in an ocean of space with islands moving, while that one is based on static ground)

Im pretty sure I could come up with all sorts of ideas, the new trade mechanic is better because it is based on RL economy, not monetary economy that doesnt produce stuff. But that would take a few days I guess :P and Id have to be in a mood for it.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Erebus6937, reply 28

@Volt, I suggested it as something fun that would benefit the game as a game option. There's been a couple convos regarding it on the discord.

That said, whether the game is closer to rts or 4x is a dev decision. As a single player only, balance isn't a priority for me either.

As for whether it's possible to mod, I'll have to wait until others release mods so I can figure out what's possible using them as templates.

Fair enough, it is a dev decision, and I'm not opposed to units getting tiny little boosts. If there's ever a campaign on a small map, it would probably feel more important that way.

As for it being moddable, it's just not possible (yet). There's nothing in the existing game data files that allows for randomness except NPC rewards, and those are just resources, not buffs. Even targeting is currently deterministic (I tried that)

Quoting TomaSkTemplar, reply 29

[organized the post to more cleanly respond]

  1. If vetting it up renders that one unit 1.1-1.2 combat effective, it is not terrible.
  2. Rapid autoloader is not weak at all, if you want some proper overkill, do use 5 heavy slugs plus 1 autoloader. 40% passive bonus, 90% on top active one. 250 penetration on the gausses.
  3. Repair unit is also not weak, because it has a passive bonus, that applies nonstop even during jumps. 30 or so on top, if on Kol with active armor means that you get much more effective repairs.

  1. 1.1-1.2 is stronger than you'd think once Lanchester's Square Law kicks in. From my own simulation, buffing damage by 20% on any random type of unit is enough to radically alter the outcome of what were previously balanced fights.
  2. I didn't say Rapid Autoloader was weak, just not great on most ships. Heavy Gauss Slugs is the one I have issue with. HGS grants +25% damage to one weapon type, while RA grants a +45% DPS baseline, with the ability to ramp up to +90%. Even with the penetration boost, it's not going to do much. Armor boosts only matter if you make substantial progress toward dropping armor to zero. Gauss cannons already have 100 penetration by default, so going up to 130 doesn't make much of a difference against anything unless, as you mention, you spam it, by why wouldn't you just get Rapid Autoloader more times? It'll give you a much better DPS increase.
  3. By the time that thing comes online, capital ships are going to get swarmed pretty hard, so I expect they'll leave most battles either near full health or dead. 5 HPS is 300 HPM. That's not enough to make a difference in battle, and it's a fraction of the regen rate from repair bays or Hoshikos, so I don't think they'll alter drydock repair much either.
Reply #31 Top

Quoting Blair, reply 25

So much good stuff, thanks. Way too much for me to address here but I assure you its being read, collected, and discussed. Some of these points were / are already in progress and some have already made it to the new public test build (e.g. being able to build ship items on the fly). 

The main thing I want to point out for modders is we have a programmer entirely focused on generating a schema for use in vs.code etc. No more guessing what is available or not.

What do you think of my idea I posted here: Post

I don't know if something like this is already implemented. I wonder if its something that a Modder can create themselves as well?

Reply #32 Top

Quoting Gambit3689, reply 31

I don't know if something like this is already implemented. I wonder if its something that a Modder can create themselves as well?

That is beyond the scope of what modding is possible. We'd probably need full API access to do that sort of thing.

Reply #33 Top

sorry for the late reply, I wrote 1.1-1.2 combat effective was HP/armor/dps movement whatever, combined compared to base. Invoking WW1 Lancaster as if I was ignorant of Numbers having quality their own ? :) Im no ignoramus, but I do not like it when some people expect me to be 12 and try to explain how 1+1 is not 2. Or is, because they feel like it.

So, I consider my own argumentation sound. Especially since how a single basic ship is pretty inconsequential.