Your game review

As someone who enjoys stellaris as well I've really being enjoying galciv4 - its definitely beta but I've got that 1 more turn feeling from quite a few of my later play sessions - my recommendation check out some of the youtube 'lets play' clips - and equally join the discord and you can find out alot more information about it

it's def fun, interesting, and involved. I would say there's 2 important things to consider though... 1. the game gets upgraded every week or 2, so u have to start a new game each time if u want to stay in the loop. 2... it has a little bit of bugs, crashes, and for my 8g ram, 6 cores comp, it gets pretty laggy pretty quickly still. as long as those possible drawbacks dont annoy you too much, the game should still be fun and worth trying i think.

I get the impression that Stardock are done with real changes (see all the feedback comments that fall on deaf ears), and are just after the low hanging fruit now like balance and pacing changes. Things that require minimal dev work.

In which case, I don't hold much hope for release. Its alright on its own, but when comparing to the whole market of strategy games, it does nothing new and lacks all quality of life features that have become standard over the last decade or more.

The game is too incomplete for a full review. It is in closed Beta for a reason.

If it were in closed beta, it wouldn't be available to us.

It is in open beta. 

ok. I’ll bite, what are you talking about?

• "That is an ungodly amount of tech" - Seren Santiago
• "These are awful trade deals" - Explorminate
• "The player has to make a lot of blind decisions in Beta 0.77" - me

All of these tie into quality of life, things that other games have significantly ironed out by now. We're all trying to be open-minded, but I haven't seen any outside observer say you look like you are close to ready for release. Do I like what you've done with leaders and colonies? Yes, but I don't think it is enough. Given that it currently takes hours of sim-citying to build up your empire to the point that you can do anything fun, it's going to be a tough sell. I haven't gotten to the mid-game yet, much less the endgame. Nor have I seen a YouTube video get anywhere near that far.

If your modding infrastructure is good enough (I have no idea), then the modding community can build quality-of-life mods. That will only happen if the game is fun enough to get a critical mass of people in the door.

ATM crashing a lot

We just entered beta last week.  We aren't close to release yet.  

None of the things you just listed go with the comment:

"I get the impression that Stardock are done with real changes (see all the feedback comments that fall on deaf ears), and are just after the low hanging fruit now like balance and pacing changes. Things that require minimal dev work."

• "That is an ungodly amount of tech"

I'm not sure what exactly this means.  Tech choices in the game? Or something else? If it's the former that would be changes to XML if it's determined this is a consensus.

• "These are awful trade deals"

Similarly, depending on what awful means here (awful for the AI or awful for the player) but both of these would fall under balance.

• "The player has to make a lot of blind decisions in Beta 0.77"

0.77 introduced having events be part of the turn system.  That means that events could be made into modeless windows that are minimized.  

We aren't close to release but the things you just mentioned here would all be solvable in less than 2 days. Let alone months of beta ahead of us.

i gotta agree with all 3 points... 1- way too many useless techs. it takes a really, really long time to look through all the techs just to see what they do, let alone actually looking into what techs you need to get the techs you want, then figuring out which ones are worth going for first, then trying to use the research luck system to research the things your empire needs can be kinda frustrating. many people like the ability to come up with a plan for how they want part of their civ to work, then finding a way to put that plan into action and be able to see the results. in the current research tech system, this is very difficult to do. you can't even tell a lot of the time what research type you should be focusing on to get the chance of bringing up the tech you want. i understand what you're trying to do with the current tech system, but the problem with that is it's only going to appeal to a small % of your player base, and you need a main system that appeals to as many people as possible. maybe you can have a starting game option be to either use the current research system, or have one less based off luck, like gal civ 3. i still think having a research system that incorporates both would work best for what you're trying to do though, if it's possible. it would be a lot more realistic too... a giant civ never focuses on just one thing at a time

2. all trade deals i've gotten still have to heavily favor the other guy. even when my civ is more powerful, they will never agree to an open borders treaty unless i give them free stuff too. any trade requires me giving the other race a lot of free stuff, basically. last game i focused on diplomacy a lot too, no difference.

3. i know it's beta, but there are still many, many things that require tooltips to show how they work and need more explanation. and you really need the ability to check through stuff in your empire before making a decision for events. overall, it seems like you're just relying on the "pros" making a bunch of wiki stuff that the majority of players need for the game to be more fun. I really think you need to take the reigns with this a bit more, and include a lot more info in your game about how everything works. I still cant quite figure out how things like population growth work, for example, because it literally changes every turn, and there's no description on how or why.

I know you're trying to make a longer, more involved type of game that can take a very long time to finish, which i really like and think is a great idea, but the early game needs to be really fun too, because that's the hook that gets people to want to start playing more. it currently takes hours just to figure out how the basics work, and then the game starts off much slower than gal civ 3, and stays very slow for a long, long time. i've gone almost 100 turns and never seen any race declare war on any other race. and i've got drengin, yor, festron, all are super peaceful starting out, which i guess is a good thing because they seem to sometimes be able to build up their armies so fast early game i dont know how i could compete with early war against a race that can get leaders very quickly and have several commander ships while i still have 1 or 2. and i've still never been able to research anything bigger than small hulls either. i know that in alpha/beta i'm prob never going to have enough time to put into the game to get too far past the first 100 turns or so, so i cant really talk about the mid/late game, but right now the early game, while i do find it very fun and entertaining, i can def see how many players would be turned off by how much you have to try to figure everything out on your own before you can even get a good game going, and then combined with how slow the start is, i think it's def going to turn off a large portion of players that need a little more early game fun, and a little less "trying to figure out how everything works because not much is very clear in this game that has so many aspects and is so incredibly involved." and i know it's only beta, but this is the type of game that already really needs more descriptions for people to be able to really understand and thus accurately review the game.

This is all very helpful feedback and I don't disagree with much or really any of it.  

That said, I was responding to the statement that we wouldn't put in "big" changes from this point forward and trying to get an idea of what these big changes would be.

The examples being given here are balance changes.  For instance, in today's update, the AI trading got a balance update because they were so difficult to put together good deals for.

The number of techs in the game right now is because they haven't been divied up between the different civilizations.  So right now, you see ALL the techs instead of just the ones a particular civ would get.

Also, as a reminder, you can roll for a particular branch of tech:

You pay a minor tech penalty each time for doing this but this lets you focus in a particular area.

Also, the AI work only started last week.  You will find the AI in today's update vastly, vastly better.  And that's just one week's worth of development.

Totally agreed.  Don't let people whose negative comments contradict each other get under your skin.  Of COURSE there are major changes coming.  The game is still being shaped.  I'm eagerly awaiting the next (soonish) update by playing and being annoyed that it hasn't been changed yet.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 11

The number of techs in the game right now is because they haven't been divied up between the different civilizations.  So right now, you see ALL the techs instead of just the ones a particular civ would get.

Also, as a reminder, you can roll for a particular branch of tech:





You pay a minor tech penalty each time for doing this but this lets you focus in a particular area.

oh, that top point will prob make things a lot easier for people once it's separated, thank you for explaining that.

also when there's less techs from that this random system might work better, but it can still be very hard for people to use both because of the "bad luck" factor the can really frustrating for some people, and the fact that some of the techs dont currently show which one of the 4 you need to pick to have a chance of it coming up.

just wanted to add too that i think that you and the team are doing a great job. some people are always going to be mad that the game isn't going more in the direction that they want and will be very vocal about that, but you guys a making a great game here that already has a ton of fans just going into beta, and you guys are doing a great job of making tons of changes every week or so to try to find what works best for everyone. this game is already going to be a success, so dont let the haters get u down too much right now i think it's just a matter of continuing to work to make the game as fun to as much of your possible player base as it can be, and you seem to be doing a very good job of listening to your players and considering their opinions for every discission that you make, and just wanted to say thank you to you and the team for all that, just keep up the great work and this game is going to be huge

I have to agree with Basilisk83 ‘that you guys are doing a great job! I think that GC4 is already a better game than GC3 in its present state and improves with every update.

Not trying to be a fanboy here, just appreciating what Stardock is creating with this game. I guess I am a bit bias as 4x in space is by far my favourite game genre.

Quoting Basilisk83, reply 14

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 11

The number of techs in the game right now is because they haven't been divied up between the different civilizations.  So right now, you see ALL the techs instead of just the ones a particular civ would get.

Also, as a reminder, you can roll for a particular branch of tech:





You pay a minor tech penalty each time for doing this but this lets you focus in a particular area.

oh, that top point will prob make things a lot easier for people once it's separated, thank you for explaining that.

Those screenshots are from version .77 click any of the 4 smaller Icons and a different selection of techs come up based on the Icon's focus, they are Planet, manufacturing, military, and government (titles may be different but this is their basic functions).

Feel free to review my post history. You can watch the videos for yourself. Your boss retweets them all.

I'm going to simplify this and then step back from the forum for a while.

Streamline all the things.

• Leader selection? Get rid of it. The micromanagement of which leader to pick and when is a real nuisance and puts too much emphasis on your credit economy. Earn leaders by doing stuff, then figure out what to do with them once you get them.
• Technology selection? Get rid of it. Picking from a group of 4-5 techs every few turns is boring. Through your science minister, pick a tech (anywhere in the tree) to try to moon-shot. Otherwise tech awards are random as science is earned.
• Culture point selection? Get rid of it. Earn culture point awards through events as you accumulate ideology points. If I have worded this wrong, apologies, but hopefully I got my point across.
• Citizen customization? Get rid of it. No one wants to hover through every citizen to find the one with the lowest approval to exile onto a starbase.
• Trade deal offers? Get rid of it. No one is interested in a trade deal with England. Don't offer me crappy trade deals.
• etc. If it doesn't make the game more fun, just get rid of it.

The game takes way too long as it is and the excessive number of mindless or low-impact decisions just exacerbates the problem. We're here because of the setting, the event-driven story, and winning strategy. Lean into that.

Take it or leave it.

Playing GC4 makes me remember just how much I despise culture/influence systems, where you constantly have to fight against your worlds being flipped by the AI

I would give this game a hard pass because of this. It's no fun to see your worlds (which requires a huge amount of micromanagement, building up hex by hex) to just suddenly go to the AI with no real warning or there being anything you can do. 

And does it make any logical sense? Hey, as the Terran Resistance we're eeked out an existence for decades despite being abandoned by our homeworld, but now lets suddenly in a year decide we want to be part of a weird alien empire.

Beyond that, it's incredibly slow paced. Lots of micromanagement - the core worlds idea might have been good on paper, but in practice every world that isn't terrible become a core world. It takes forever to build stuff. There's a lot of dead time because of this. I'm 10 hours into my current game and it feels like I'm still just starting out.

The card based research system simplifies a giant tech tree, but can also keep you from researching very important things

Just who retweets your videos I guarantee you it is not Frogboy's boss. 

Thanks for posting this.  

Some of it I agree with but much of it I don't.  I'm sure Derek will given it consideration.

But a lot of what you don't like are staples of the genre that most people DO like.

Mind you, I'm not the lead designer on this game and it is well known I was not a fan of GalCiv III (I did design GalCiv II and GalCiv I and of course the OS/2 versions) so take this for what it's worth:

• I like trade offer deals. A lot.  It helps with pacing and boosting your friends at the expense of your foes.
• I don't hover over citizens to decide who to exile to a starbase. But I like the idea, very much, that there are min/max options available if the AI ever proves to be too challenging.
• You already earn culture points through events and techs and many other ways.  
• Totally disagree on how tech should be done.  One of the things we've learned over the years is that players will get into a rut where they play the game the same exact way every single game.  Did you know that only something like 30% of the players even play NON-Terran Alliance.  That is, custom + all the other species combined.   
• You could go the whole game and never pick a leader if you didn't want to. 
• Leaders are, imo, a very fun alternative to having sliders.

Just my 2 cents.

Maybe people do play the same way I got over 2000 hours in Civ 5 with a very defined tech tree and what I research changes every game yes their is a usual flow but other than researching pottery first that is the only thing that stays exactly the same. Not knowing the tech tree is maddening you just guess and hope you get lucky. I will say it is A LOT better than it was. If there was a way to see a defined tech tree as an option it would be most appreciated.

The Tech navigator shows the tech tree.

If the events could be minimized that would be a huge improvement.