My rant about uxtheme patching and msstyles

I'm in a ranting mood today. So I'm going to talk about the whole msstyles, uxtheme, thing on Windows XP.  Now this rant is not aimed at people who choose to make msstyles. I have a very high opinion of anyone who takes time to share with the world anything they create regardless of whether it's for Litestep, msstyles, Hoverdesk, or of course our stuff.

Windows XP comes with its own "visual style engine". That's how you get the blue, silver, and green "styles". But that's all there are. That's because the interface to change them, uxtheme.dll will only use Microsoft digitally signed msstyles (the file that contains the "visual style").  So if you want more, you've got two choices: 1) You can make your own format and apply them (which is what WindowBlinds does) or 2) You can try to crack the security out so that you can use unsigned msstyles.

This is a bit of a sore point for me as a software developer because certain..companies have made it out that they are actually skinning Windows when in fact all they've done is crack the security built into uxtheme.dll.  Hey, if you want to mess with your system DLLs then it's your system, go for it. But what really rips me is how companies try to make it out like patching uxtheme.dll is somehow a safe and easy thing. It is if you're reasonably technical. But those who advocate that don't tend to show up when a new Windows XP service pack shows up and the system won't boot or their title bars are all missing or whatever.  The same company doing this stuff is planning on adding support to change the "boot screen".  I somehow doubt they'll make it clear that to change the boot screen you have to patch the actual Windows kernel (which is why we don't mess with that).  Similarly, those patching uxtheme are stuck having to replace their shellstyles.dll. There are whole websites now that allow people to essentially distribute copyrighted parts of the Windows OS without a) any regard to the piracy issues and b) without recognizing that when you replace the actual code binaries, bad things may happen in the future. 

That said, I have nothing against people patching uxtheme.dll to apply their own hacked msstyles (there's no such thing as a pure .msstyles file -- they are actually a .DLL renamed with graphics resources inside which means, amongst other things, it's a dead end -- come Longhorn, .msstyles go bye bye).  I just wish its proponents (as well as companies that make a profit off of cracking Microsoft's digital signing security) would be up front about what they do instead of passing what they're doing A) as "their" work and B) Stop making it out like patching out system DLL security is somehow a "native" way of getting more visual styles. To me native doesn't include the words "patching" and "system files" in the same sentence.

And patching uxtheme certainly doesn't add features. It just means you can, basically, replace the bitmaps of the Windows XP blue, silver, green, msstyle.  This is probably why when Microsoft wants to add more visual styles for a promotion like with the Xbox or Age of Mythology it's WindowBlinds they use as well as what they recommend to OEMs. WindowBlinds doesn't hack the system. What really galls me is the idea that someone would charge the unwary for the patch. It would be like charging money for a program that changes wallpaper because users didn't know where the wallpaper changing dialog was.  I probably wouldn't have such a hard time with the charging of such patching if there was some value-add.

So that's my two cents on that subject. Incidentally, *I* do have my uxtheme patched because I use both WindowBlinds visual styles and msstyles. I certainly didn't pay to do it, I did it myself with a hex editor. But I've been digging into OS internals for over a decade and I don't freak out if my system doesn't boot up. I know how to get back to a command line and mess around with system restore if need be.  But that's the thing, I know what I'm getting myself into. I suspect most normal people with lives who are interested in customizing their PCs just want to download a program that will work well. Not one that may or may not work on the next service pack.

The only other sore point about msstyles is their relentless advocates. People who would, if they could, wreck skinning for the long term because they hate the idea of someone making money on customizing.  Hey, if you want to use msstyles, go for it. It's your PC. But don't go on some web forum and tell people it's somehow better than WindowBlinds because, sorry, that's ridiculous. Besides being relativley primitive in features, msstyles are slower, use more RAM, are larger to download, don't fully skin existing programs, and have only a fraction of the # of visual styles that are available for WindowBlinds. Oh and did I mention they're doomed after XP?

That isn't to say WindowBlinds is perfect. But it is to Photoshop what msstyles are to MS Paint. MS Paint is not a bad start but don't try to argue that it's better than Photoshop. Oh, and in this analogy, Photoshop uses less RAM than MS Paint.

These days the more vocal msstyles zealots will try to say "Well, all the WindowBlinds skins are bloated and ugly.." which means, of course, that they didn't really bother to look. If you scan the net for msstyles, you'll find that they are typically just like Windows XP except now a different hue. Maybe they're purplish.  Of course, you can do this with WindowBlinds without having to find a new visual style since WindowBlinds can change the color of a skin on the fly. That doesn't mean there aren't great msstyles floating around on the net -- there are (of course, SkinStudio can convert them to WindowBlinds since WindowBlinds is a superset of features but I digress). 

But the thing is, WindowBlinds has been around for 5 or so years now, its community has moved way beyond the initial hacker demographic that the msstyles user base is at (and likely to stay at since, like I said, it does require you to crack system DLLs to use which ain't for the average user).  So the styles and tastes are all over the place now. But yea, it too for the first couple of years mainly fixated on those minimalist "Look, it's like KDE!" skins.

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Reply #1 Top
I use neither VS's or WB so I wont even start comparing/commenting on which is best/worst
but one thing cought my attention in your lill 'rant':

Oh, and in this analogy, Photoshop uses less RAM than MS Paint


Sorry Frogboy, but that is a load of bollocks!!
I loaded both apps and:

MS Paint: 7.044 K
PhotoShop 7: 36.692 K

Unless my calculations are absolutely of track and my years in school totally wasted, 36 is alot higher than 7!!
Reply #2 Top
You misread or misunderstood what Brad was saying Snowman. He said that WindowBlinds is to MSStyles as Photoshop is to MSPaint, except that in this case Photoshop (ie. WindowBlinds) uses less memory. He's saying WindowBlinds has all the features, but none of the memory usage.
Reply #3 Top

That's why I said analogy.

WindowBlinds is to Photoshop as Msstyles is to MS Paint.

Except in this analogy, Photoshop uses less RAM than MS Paint. That is, WindowBlinds, while doing a lot more, uses less memory than msstyles.

This monstly has to do with the way the visual styles are handled:

Msstyles loads the entire visual style for each process. So even if you load up a dialog with no scrollbars and no toolbars, it's still bringing in a copy of the visual style. WindowBlinds, by contrast, only uses the necessary pieces.

Reply #4 Top
He actually said it a slightly different way round to that, but I think you probably understand now.
Reply #5 Top
I'm in a ranting mood today.

Erm... Why is that, Brad? Did something went wrong today?
Reply #6 Top

most normal people with lives

Good Lord....do they really exist?.....Surely not in Skinning...

Reply #7 Top
Matthijs.....no.....more a case of the same-old same-old. Every now and then something crops up that makes you want to kick the cat. Mine is looking at me nervously....
Reply #8 Top
I love WB & MSStyles. It depends what my mood is.
Reply #9 Top

MadIce:

Ah you know, it's the same old thing. In the old days, when I was less wise I'd just jump onto a topic and correct mistatements. But that's precisely the kind of thing that serves as an engine for the anti-Stardock people.

So I bite my tongue.

I would be totally okay if someone said "Well I'm not really that into skinning and msstyles are 'good enough' for me and I don't have a problem patching system DLLs. It serves my needs so I don't see a reason to pay for WindowBlinds."

I'd be totally okay with that.

But no, it's never left at that. Instead you get all sorts of claims that are factually not true. And if challenged they argue "arent' I entitled to my opinon???" which is nonsense because they are stating things that are factually false (such as speed or memory use).

Teeny-bopper power users, for lack of a better term, want to believe that they've got the latest/greatest stuff but don't want to have to pay for it. So they try to argue that the free stuff is "better". Sometimes free stuff is better but not usually.

Then you've got certain companies who profit off of all this. Did you know Stardock was the first company to make msstyles work? We figured out how to make msstyles work and we didn't have to patch a system DLL either. But Microsoft asked us not to do it so we didn't put it into WindowBlinds 3.  Think about that, we could have owend the whole msstyle thing if we'd wanted to. But what really ticks me off is when a certain company claims Microsoft is "okay" with what they're doing even though we know that's not true (just because Microsoft didn't want the PR hassle of suing people distributing patches and files for customization doesn't mean they're "okay" with it).

 

Reply #10 Top
After trying both...I can most sincerely say, Windowblinds wins hands down over .msstyles. Too many reasons to list
Reply #11 Top
Well, Brad. Think of it this way: Rolls Royce cannot be worried when Daihatsu claims they have made the best limousine in the world. But they should worry (a bit) when the Maybach was launced. As far as I can tell such an event didn't happen for Stardock yet.

Erm... I've changed the brand. Daihatsu seemed more appropriate.

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Reply #12 Top
I am with you Brad on this and i have seen at first hand on Neowin and other sites where ignorance and misinformation about Windowblinds has gone totally over the top and both myself and several other members of this site have rallied to the defence(to quote Jafo - but they have not done anything wrong ). There must have been times that you felt like exploding but most of the time you have ignored the uneducated or put them right very gently which i respect you for. I used Windowblinds for the first time about 3 years ago and found it problematic at the time so i dropped it. I then found MSS styles via Style XP and used that for a while but i found the whole experience rather limiting and i found that there were only a few authors works that i actually liked. I kept coming back to Stardock and WC as a visitor and watched as programmes were updated and added and eventually i decided that things had moved on from my initial trial and decided to give it another go. I paid my money to Stardock and have never looked back since. Everything i was looking for was in the Object Desktop programme and not only that it worked like a dream and fast too.

I have to be honest - i am still very much a "user" of the product and i am slowly trying out "skinning" ideas but i know what i like to see on my desktop. I should imagine i am like the vast majority of your customers. Forget all the technical jargon - What are your programmes designed for? They are there to make your desktop look nice and possibly more user friendly and they certainly do that. MSS styles goes part of the way but does not get even close to Object Desktop. As you will know I have often stressed these points when talking to the unconverted.

It saddens me when i see people knocking your product because they really do not know what they are missing. I suspect the reason why many stick with MSS styles is that it is free? There is a good saying in our country "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys". I guess the saying is right.
Reply #13 Top
I have to laugh to think I'd chose a funky dll hack over WB to customize my OS No spank you but to each his own...

Windowblinds has come a longggggg way and folks like me who purchased it back in the day have seen it's progression!

I don't mind paying for something that is so damned cool and doesn't screw my puter up or overtake my registry to such an extent that I can never quite get it back.

Modular freeware is one thing but something that hacks your windows operating system to the point of 'risky bidness' is not my cup of tea. I'd prefer a team of 'specialists' to operate on my OS and could ya gimme a bit more 'gas' next time I update...hehe.

Reply #14 Top
there's no such thing as a pure .msstyles file -- they are actually a .DLL renamed with graphics resources inside which means, amongst other things, it's a dead end -- come Longhorn, .msstyles go bye bye


I will be devils advocate. Brad, with Longhorn, where there is a will there is a way.

Besides being relativley primitive in features, msstyles are slower, use more RAM, are larger to download


Ok, again, I will be devils advocate here. To use a Windowblinds skin you have to fire up windowblinds and that is a program right? So you fire up WB and set a skin. there is 2 things going on, the program WB and the skin. Msstyles do not need a extra program to skin stuff. So it seems to me that WB takes up more RAM. I am going to set up 2 machines and get to the bottom of what takes more RAM.
Reply #15 Top
Geezuz Kona...Educate yourself before you make such statements please

Sorry but you are really making yourself look like a fool
Reply #16 Top
I am a fool. I was just stating those comments for my own benefit...playinf devils advocate and all I guess.

Actually I don't use either so I guess I will drop it.

Sorry. I am a moron.
Reply #17 Top
Kona.....knock yourself out if you have time to kill...but it's genuinely a lost cause. The technology for each is different....
Reply #18 Top
Well Paul, then delete my last post and I thank you. Knocking myself out as we speak...
Reply #19 Top
ummmm Kona might have made a point there.

Maybe why so many people say MS Styles uses less RAM is because when you turn the computer on its on.

Basically they would say that since all your doing is replacing images not running a program, that MSSTYLES is faster.


I never thought of that before.

Although its wrong because while WB is a separate app, it uses less RAM then XP original visual style.

Plus it skins more stuff even before WB 4.0 came out. I think people just want competition to WindowBlinds so its not a 'monopoly' of skinning power.
Reply #20 Top


(Kona knocking himself out. )

Not a matter of knocking another program, since so many people don't use it and just use the cracked .dll, but I suspect a good number of those .msstyles users assert it's "better" simply because it's free and they want to confirm their own choice (and/or cleverness at getting "something for nothing") rather than engage in any objective analysis. It's more a matter of psychology. Those who like using the freebie but don't have their egos invested in it are less likely to be arguing about what's better or worse.
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Reply #22 Top
I know I switched to windowblinds, because as I added more mss files it took longer and looonger and loooonger to open my display propertys.I at one point had about 50 or so styles and it took like a full minute to open up. And my puter is no slouch.
Reply #23 Top
Well, both sides have their point but WB wins, no question. However, there is no denying that some very nice msstyles have been made by some talented people. Curses, we gotta convert these people before it is too late! I mean, if you go to ThemeXP or someplace, there are a ton of msstyles. There must be something right with them...Oh, I suppose it's the whole "skinning for free" garbage. Sure, you can do it, but let's talk about quality. WindowBlinds is better, uses less memory, skins more, is backward compatible (something Microsoft can't boast about) and so on...Besides, I recently tried BootXP and found it garbage. Costs $10 to patch one file to display ugly pictures. No, thanks. All hail Stardock!



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Reply #24 Top

Now if anyone wonders why I was so mean to Kona in the poll thread, this is why.

Kona: You clearly know nothing about GUI skinning (either about msstyles or WindowBlinds). Listen to that little voice that says "Maybe I shouldn't respond if I don't know the subject matter..."

Reply #25 Top

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