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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,470 views 728 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 25

I happen to be more familiar on the ship design stuff because our games have included ship designers for a long time so it's a topic we are pretty familiar with.

Precisely. And the idea that P&F were demanding that you remove any fan designed ships that they didn't like (i.e. looked or were anything like anything from SC1/SC2) is complete nonsense.

Reply #27 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 26
Precisely. And the idea that P&F were demanding that you remove any fan designed ships that they didn't like (i.e. looked or were anything like anything from SC1/SC2) is complete nonsense.

That feels a bit overstated to me.  If people created images of something that is identifiably the USS Enterprise, or the Millennium Falcon, it's at least plausible that the respective copyright holders could try to demand that they be removed.  Such works would be derivative works of the original.  And while (unlike trademarks) copyrights do allow a "Fair Use" defense, it's applied on a case-by-case basis based on a number of subjective criteria, so it's not something that's very safe to rely upon.  So IMHO (and IANAL!), while P&F might not have a solid legal case on this hypothetical point, I don't think it falls to the level of "complete nonsense" either.

Also, even if it's legally plausible, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.  Sending a signal that you don't want your fans creating fan art is a great way to lose fans.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 27


Quoting bleybourne,
Precisely. And the idea that P&F were demanding that you remove any fan designed ships that they didn't like (i.e. looked or were anything like anything from SC1/SC2) is complete nonsense.



That feels a bit overstated to me.  If people created images of something that is identifiably the USS Enterprise, or the Millennium Falcon, it's at least plausible that the respective copyright holders could try to demand that they be removed.  Such works would be derivative works of the original.  And while (unlike trademarks) copyrights do allow a "Fair Use" defense, it's applied on a case-by-case basis based on a number of subjective criteria, so it's not something that's very safe to rely upon.  So IMHO (and IANAL!), while P&F might not have a solid legal case on this hypothetical point, I don't think it falls to the level of "complete nonsense" either.

Also, even if it's legally plausible, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.  Sending a signal that you don't want your fans creating fan art is a great way to lose fans.

While CBS or Paramount could potentially do that, it wouldn't be us they'd be contacting.  It's none of our business what people create. 

The Ur-Quan universe based games have an extra obstacle: The open-source license allowing fans to do whatever they want provided it is non-commercial.  Obviously, if P&F want to send cease and desist letters to their fans, that's their business. 

 

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Reply #29 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 28
The Ur-Quan universe based games have an extra obstacle: The open-source license allowing fans to do whatever they want provided it is non-commercial.

That's a good point, and one I hadn't considered.  Stardock might still be potentially vulnerable, if that art was ever used in a way that could be argued provided a commercial benefit.  For example, if such ship designs or images were posted in a place or manner that promoted SC:O.  However, I agree that this should serve to protect fans from any issues of direct copyright liability, and also makes any related case against Stardock more difficult to pursue.

Edit:  Oh, and IANAL.  :-P
Reply #30 Top

I think demanding to remove Super Melee from SCO was a bit too much. Owning the SC trademark without Super Melee is like owning a car without an engine. PR obviously is pretty adamant at keeping all aspects of UQM exclusively theirs. I wouldn't be surprised if that was an emotional decision on their part. But Stardock did rename SCO's Super Melee to "Fleet Battles" is that correct? As for SC2 ship replicas, aka "mods", I think they're wasting their time there.

In general, I'm particularly disgusted by this phase of this mess where the lawyers from both sides have taken over the rhetoric. "PR&FF are not the creators of SC1-2" is just... let's just say there's too much evidence for the contrary and to suddenly make that claim this late (having a stake in the SC business just 5 years running) when they have been there since the beginning (almost 30 yrs now) - they would know what's rightfully theirs.

I still hope in the coming days there will be a PSA from both sides saying they've settled out of court. *fingers crossed*

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 28

While CBS or Paramount could potentially do that, it wouldn't be us they'd be contacting.  It's none of our business what people create.

But if you were to actually clearly say "you can create TIE Fighters or Serenity with the editor" to promote the game, that would be crossing the line or at least toeing pretty close, right? (AFAIK, IANAL) Have you said this to the public about creating SC ships?

I still hope in the coming days there will be a PSA from both sides saying they've settled out of court. *fingers crossed*

Me too.

Reply #32 Top

The Ur Quan Dreadnought is a Hydran ship from SFB with the Battlestar Galactica's hangar bays hanging off of the sides of it.  It's even "Hydran Green".  The Hydrans, in turn, were the Battlestar Galactica with the hangar bays removed.  P&F had just put them back on.

The Airlou is functionally an Andromedan, the Ilwrath is functionally a Romulan Falcon Mauler.

If P&F can sue Stardock over these ships, then ADB can sue P&F for the same exact reason.


EDIT: In fact, P&F borrowed so much from SFB (without their permission, but that's a tradition in the computer game industry) that Stardock can probably get around many issues like this simply by going around P&F to the actual original source and getting ADB's permission to use them.  But why bother with that when ripping off SFB is practically a tradition?

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Reply #33 Top

Here is a visual comparison in chronological order...

Galactica...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Battlestar+Galactica+picture&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS784US784&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJkt6tx9rZAhUJFHwKHY6gBcIQ7AkIRQ&biw=1920&bih=974#imgrc=MFrSUxh35x8cYM:

Hydran...

https://www.shapeways.com/product/UYV68CLSL/3788-scale-hydran-chausseur-new-scout-cruiser-cvn?optionId=64891464

Ur Quan...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ur+Quan+Dreadnought&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS784US784&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=ifm3veESeHKmJM%253A%252CZuFFrlYn3POomM%252C_&usg=__VhHRGN693zvjNhCYTfuHiCFbgR8%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiohe32x9rZAhWL6YMKHcnNCucQ9QEIQDAC#imgrc=ifm3veESeHKmJM:

...so, when it comes to the Ur Quan, it's ultimately Glenn A Larson and the network that would have a lawsuit over ship design here.

Reply #34 Top

Thinking about this more...

Hellbore Cannon... SFB (Hydran).

The Earth Cruiser's point defense weapon... SFB Gatling Phaser (Hydran). Like many SFB players, P&F were clearly big fans of the BSG inspired Hydrans.

The Mycon's weapon... Plasma Torpedo is from the ST:TOS episode “Balance of Terror”. It is also the primary weapon of three SFB “empires” (Romulan, Gorn, Interstellar Concordium).

Airilou weapon... Tractor-Repulsor Beam (SFB, Andromedan).

Airilou device... Displacement Device (SFB, Andromedan).

Ilwrath weapon... Mauler Cannon (SFB, Coalition). The Coalition is the alliance of the Klingon, Lyran, and Romulan empires. They all have Mauler Cannons.

Ilwrath device... Cloaking device. Star Trek/SFB.

Sophixti... This guy, both the pilot and ship, were lifted from an early Apple II game called “Starfox”.

Thraddash... Fast Patrol Ship with warp booster packs or “Hot Warp” engines. SFB (All empires).

Ur Quan fighters... Hydran Stinger fighter. Diamond shaped wedges with point-blank only beam weapons.

Khor Ah weapon... Transporter bomb. SFB (All empires).

Khor Ah device... Expanding Sphere Generator. SFB (Lyran).

I could go on but I think the point is coming through here. P&F can make no claim to the design of the ships or any aspect of “Super Melee”. They did not “create” that aspect of the game. Steve Cole did, and they “borrowed” it all from him. Super Melee was just P&F's vision of SFB as an arcade game. If anybody is suing anybody over the ships or Super Melee it would be Steve Cole suing P&F.

P&F came up with the overall structure of Star Control, which is a significant thing. It is a “perfect game” in many ways in that regard. And they wrote the story. The ships, the tactical combat environment, Super-Melee... That's Steve Cole, not P&F.

 

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Reply #35 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 34

Thinking about this more...

Hellbore Cannon... SFB (Hydran).

The Earth Cruiser's point defense weapon... SFB Gatling Phaser (Hydran). Like many SFB players, P&F were clearly big fans of the BSG inspired Hydrans.

The Mycon's weapon... Plasma Torpedo is from the ST:TOS episode “Balance of Terror”. It is also the primary weapon of three SFB “empires” (Romulan, Gorn, Interstellar Concordium).

Airilou weapon... Tractor-Repulsor Beam (SFB, Andromedan).

Airilou device... Displacement Device (SFB, Andromedan).

Ilwrath weapon... Mauler Cannon (SFB, Coalition). The Coalition is the alliance of the Klingon, Lyran, and Romulan empires. They all have Mauler Cannons.

Ilwrath device... Cloaking device. Star Trek/SFB.

Sophixti... This guy, both the pilot and ship, were lifted from an early Apple II game called “Starfox”.

Thraddash... Fast Patrol Ship with warp booster packs or “Hot Warp” engines. SFB (All empires).

Ur Quan fighters... Hydran Stinger fighter. Diamond shaped wedges with point-blank only beam weapons.

Khor Ah weapon... Transporter bomb. SFB (All empires).

Khor Ah device... Expanding Sphere Generator. SFB (Lyran).

I could go on but I think the point is coming through here. P&F can make no claim to the design of the ships or any aspect of “Super Melee”. They did not “create” that aspect of the game. Steve Cole did, and they “borrowed” it all from him. Super Melee was just P&F's vision of SFB as an arcade game. If anybody is suing anybody over the ships or Super Melee it would be Steve Cole suing P&F.

P&F came up with the overall structure of Star Control, which is a significant thing. It is a “perfect game” in many ways in that regard. And they wrote the story. The ships, the tactical combat environment, Super-Melee... That's Steve Cole, not P&F.

 

Exactly.  This "Creator" hub-bub is probably something P&F really would have been better off not stirring up.

Here's a link to their GDC talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Napx0MjivCM&t=2821s back then they were known as the "Designers". 

Star Control is a spectacularly designed game.  But that's not the same as being THE creators of it.  

I've worked on a lot of games over the years and I don't refer to myself as "the creator" even though I think I would have a pretty legitimate claim on Galactic Civilizations (as I designed, wrote, programmed, paid for, and owned).  

Referring to P&F as the designers of the game only, apparently, became a great offense in the past few months.  Prior to that, that was the title they went by.  What changed?  I think we know exactly what changed.  They want to imply that Ghosts of the Precursors will have the same magic that Star Control had by giving the impression that "the creators" of Star Control are on it.  Sorry, that's ridiculous.   Take away the dream-team talent they had on the original Star Control and we wouldn't be talking about it today. 

If Fred did all the programming and Paul did virtually all the rest then I think they'd have a much better claim on the phrase "THE creators".  You know, sort of like what I did with the original Galactic Civilizations for OS/2 (which I also paid too by working miserable night jobs while also going to college).

 

Reply #36 Top

It's not just that they had a team of other people that were also involved. Even accepting Greg Johnson's defense of P&F of having been the “driving force” behind SC2, games, books, movies, etc, are always derivative.

As just one example from the story of my own universe/story, in my story the universe is a single living entity. Everything in the universe is just a part of that single living entity. It's all one living being, with a collective consciousness present in all of its components. This is somewhat “unique and original” when compared to the major modern sci-fi universes that take a far more “scientific” perspective on the universe. But, at the same time, it is not “unique and original” at all. The Force from Star War could be interpreted as being this same thing. I have no idea where this concept originated, but I would imagine it was with the “classic” sci-fi authors that my step father loves so much... Asimov, Hienlien, Clarke, etc.

From a literary stand-point, it is impossible to write a story that experts in that field can't trace back to William Shakespeare in some way, shape, or form. Any modern sci-fi story will be influenced, either directly or indirectly, by the original sc-fi authors from HG Wells on. And also the “more modern” sci-fi like Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers, Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5, etc.

Like any sci-fi story, Star Control's story was a blending of all of these things. And there are plenty of direct references too these older stories in the SC2 story... just like there are in anyone elses sci-fi story. P&F's, Stardocks, mine... anybody's. We all bring our own unique perspective too our own stories, but in many ways we are all also telling essentially the same stories over and over again.

So, what is it that P&F are claiming is “entirely, uniquely ours”. Super Melee is Steve Cole. The Ur Quan DN is Glenn Larson. The Star Trek influences in SC2 (there are many) are Gene Roddenberry's. I don't know what P&F are specifically claiming, I haven't bothered to read anything about this outside of these forums. But the things people are saying here don't belong to P&F, and they weren't their ideas whether you are talking about the game or the story. Like any sci-fi storyteller, most of their story was derived from previous sci-fi stories. Most of their game was derived from Dungeons & Dragons and Star Fleet Battles.

They didn't “create” some entirely new thing unlike anything that had ever existed before. Just like everyone else, the simply arranged things in a way that suited their taste and style. Just like everyone else, there were only a few (a very few) things in SC2 that they weren't “borrowing” from those who came before them.

Reply #37 Top

The quibbling over the title "creator" seems rather pedantic to me. There are many other examples where one or two people are referred to as "creator" of a fictional work where they of course had help, including to promote new projects. It's a common convention, and people understand it doesn't mean that the work was a solo effort. Here's just one:

http://time.com/3987615/david-simon-hbo-the-deuce/   The Wire Creator David Simon Is Bringing Two New Series to HBO

Nobody thinks that The Wire is solely the work of David Simon. He had many people helping him (much more than SC2), including writers, directors, camera crew, and of course a fantastic cast.  But Time still thinks it's appropriate to call him "creator" of The Wire, and a quick search will show that this headline is not an isolated journalistic slip-up. Far as I know, Dominic West, Aiden Gillan, Idris Elba, Michael Kenneth Williams, and other immensely talented people who made the show what it is don't think credit is being stolen from them by giving Simon this title.

Also, the complaint goes well beyond saying "they should be called designers, not creators" to suggesting they weren't meaningfully involved in SC2 at all.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting joel_ds, reply 37

The quibbling over the title "creator" seems rather pedantic to me. There are many other examples where one or two people are referred to as "creator" of a fictional work where they of course had help. It's common parlance, and people understand it doesn't mean that the work was a solo effort. Here's just one:

http://time.com/3987615/david-simon-hbo-the-deuce/   The Wire Creator David Simon Is Bringing Two New Series to HBO

Nobody thinks that The Wire is solely the work of David Simon. He had many people helping him (much more than SC2), including writers, directors, camera crew, and of course a fantastic cast.  But Time still thinks it's appropriate to call him "creator" of The Wire, and a quick search will show that this headline is not an isolated journalistic slip-up. Far as I know, Dominic West, Aiden Gillan, Idris Elba, Michael Kenneth Williams, and other immensely talented people who made the show what it is don't think credit is being stolen from them by giving Simon this title.

Also, the complaint goes well beyond saying "they should be called designers, not creators" to suggesting they weren't meaningfully involved in SC2 at all.

There is a big difference between "having help" and other people doing most of the creating.  Stardock's complaint does not suggest they weren't meaningfully involved.  

I suspect if David Simon was doing his series for say, Netflix instead of HBO, there might be some issues involved in that description.  Also, there is a big difference between a third-party calling you something and you claiming the credit yourself both morally and legally.

It is very unusual in our industry for people to refer to themselves as "The Creators" unless the people in that list actually did the vast majority of said creation and/or actually OWN the creation (PF compare themselves to George Lucas except that Lucas actually owned Star Wars).

I agree it's pedantic. Stardock isn't the one who made a public issue of it.

 

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 35
Star Control is a spectacularly designed game.  But that's not the same as being THE creators of it. [...] If Fred did all the programming and Paul did virtually all the rest then I think they'd have a much better claim on the phrase "THE creators".

I think this may be stretching the argument a bit further than it really should be.  Colloquially, at least to me, I don't think that "Creator" requires that someone had no help or outside inspiration in making the work; it just means that they were the primary guiding and driving force in its creation.  Moreover:

Quoting GregJohnson1, reply 114
What I can and will say is that Paul and Fred created both of those games. It was really the two of them, and others like me and Erol and whomever just contracted and did bits and pieces under Paul's direction. This Universe, Story, Characters and Gameplay all come from the amazing mind of Paul.

That's enough for them to qualify as "The Creators" in my book.  I suppose others could draw the lines in different places, but equating "Creator" with "Sole Creator" seems like splitting hairs, and outside normal parlance.

If the other people who were there are good with P&F calling themselves "The Creators of Star Control", then, IMHO, Stardock is stepping out-of-bounds when it steps in and tries to create a distinction about "Creators" 25 years later.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 35
Referring to P&F as the designers of the game only, apparently, became a great offense in the past few months.  Prior to that, that was the title they went by.  What changed?  I think we know exactly what changed.  They want to imply that Ghosts of the Precursors will have the same magic that Star Control had by giving the impression that "the creators" of Star Control are on it.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 38
I agree it's pedantic. Stardock isn't the one who made a public issue of it.

My impression, which you are welcome to rebut, is that nobody cared whether P&F called themselves "Designers" or "Creators" until Stardock's lawyer disputed the usage in Stardock's complaint (paragraph #49).  I presume that the lawyer's intent in doing so was because "Creators" has legal significance to copyright ownership, and they wanted to try to delegitimize Paul's copyright claim. 

As a legal tactic, I understand this.  If SC2 was worked on by Accolade employees, or by outside workers without any copyright assignment, it could really muddy the waters, giving Stardock a legal advantage; you didn't know the Accolade contract details at that time.  But when those details came out in Paul's counterclaim, they strongly supported his sole claim to the copyright; the other contributors appear to have been subcontracted by Paul, not directly employed by Accolade, and presumably, although we haven't seen it, those subcontracts included a copyright assignment to Paul, which would make him the "Creator" from a legal standpoint as well as by colloquial use (IANAL, of course).

So IMHO, this whole "Creators" argument is a legal tactic from Stardock that is actively backfiring.  IANAL, but I think that the Accolade contract language makes this claim unlikely to succeed in court, and Stardock is doing itself a huge amount of PR damage pushing the argument.  You've been saying that this is all about the trademark, not the copyright, and you've got a much stronger argument there, so I hope that Stardock stops digging this hole deeper, and instead refocuses the discussion on the arguments where it has a stronger case.

Reply #40 Top

What did they "create"?  As far as I can tell, they "created" the characters.  Everything else is derived from the previous work of other people.  This is pretty much always the case in books, movies, and games.  The adventure game is an RPG/Adventure game inspired by D&D, Super Melee is SFB.  The story is a blending of previous sci-fi stories.  Just as with my own story, the only thing that they (or I) seem to have actually "created" are the characters.

And, even then, I'm guessing a literature professor would be shaking their heads at all three of us and saying "They didn't create Fwiffo, he's similar to this or that character.  You didn't create Cindy McAllen, she's similar to this or that character".

I understand that P&F may have legal rights to something, and I am guessing that in the end that is the characters.  Even "The Precursors" were not their idea, in the Star Fleet Universe they are called "The Old Kings" and I'm sure that idea doesn't originate with SFB.

Very little is "new" when it comes to storytelling or games, it's all been done before.  We are not "creators", or even "designers"... the most accurate term would be "composer".

 

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 40
Very little is "new" when it comes to storytelling or games, it's all been done before.  We are not "creators", or even "designers"... the most accurate term would be "composer".

You're right, in that most new creative works are built on things that come before.  But if that argument were taken to its logical extreme, we couldn't have any copyrights, because nothing is really new.  But copyright law does recognize derivative works, and if I was a copyright lawyer, I could try to comment on how the line is drawn between a legally derivative work that's close enough to require authorization, and an informally-but-not-legally derivative work that doesn't cross that line.

But I'm not, so I won't.  I'll just say that the line exists, and if Stardock decides to push that argument, a court would have to decide.

Reply #42 Top

That's right, like others keep saying, I am not a lawyer.  I am speaking in terms of "ethically, morally, and evolutionary".  The law often arrives at a completely different decision, the most obvious being that murderers sometimes get set free on a legal technicality even when everyone knows that they are guilty.

If Paul & Fred as seeing these posts, and I suspect that they are, I want them to know that I am a big fan of theirs and always has been.  As an experience, I think Star Control II was the very best computer game that I ever played.  I think they should consider what I am saying, and realize that very little of SC2 was actually "theirs".  They seem to be thinking in terms of "we invented all this from scratch and there had never been anything like it before".  If they are entrenched in this way of thinking, they will be taking unreasonable positions in this dispute.  All things are evolution.  Evolution is everywhere, not just in genetics and life.  Most "ideas" that anyone ever has can trace themselves back thousands of years to their original source.

I consider my story to be "mine".  It's my take on a sci-fi universe.  There is a lot of me in it in how I have "arranged and composed" it all.  But, in reality, there is very little in it that originates with me.  This is the case for all "creators" of any type of fiction.  Even my "Rube" is based on the work of others going back centuries, I am just "arranging and composing" it differently than anyone else has ever done before.  While I deserve some type of credit for that, at the same time I never could have arrived at it without the previous thoughts, ideas, and work of many other people over a period of centuries.  Even Rube is not really "mine".

I can't speak to the law, only what I perceive to be the ethics of the situation.  I would hope that Paul & Fred would realize that what they did was based on, and built upon, the work of many people who came before them and that, in reality, there is very little in SC2 that was "uniquely theirs".

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 41

But I'm not, so I won't.  I'll just say that the line exists, and if Stardock decides to push that argument, a court would have to decide.

I obviously disagree with your views on this.  Stardock wouldn't be making an issue of it except for PF now trying to associate themselves with Star Control to compete with it.  IF they had announced their new game as Ur-Quan Masters II and said they were the creators of Star Control we wouldn't be here now.  But they didn't.  They announced it as the true sequel to Star Control and promoted themselves as THE creators of Star Control.   And when we objected they started attacking the distribution of 25-year old DOS games and calling us thieves.

 

 

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 43
Stardock wouldn't be making an issue of it except for PF now trying to associate themselves with Star Control to compete with it.

And the trademark certainly gives you the right to make an issue of it.  My point is that in the statement "From the creators of Star Control", I think your argument should be focused on the words "Star Control", not "creators".  To the best of my understanding, their use of "creators" is irrelevant to your trademark claims; it only matters if you're trying to attack their copyright.

IF they had announced their new game as Ur-Quan Masters II and said they were the creators of Star Control we wouldn't be here now.  But they didn't.  They announced it as the true sequel to Star Control and promoted themselves as THE creators of Star Control.  

To be precise, their announcement was "...we are now working on a direct sequel to Star Control II® -- The Ur-Quan Masters, called Ghosts of the Precursors™".  This has slightly less proprietary connotations than "true sequel".  They still should not have used your mark without permission, but I believe that they have since corrected their infringing post.  If so, the only question left should be how much harm they caused by using the infringing wording, instead of the proper wording.  Personally, I think the real harm was probably small; the press and fans would have filled in the blanks whether or not they actually used the words "Star Control", and the effect would have been almost the same.  Maybe you could agree to forgive their infringement, if they agree to drop their demands about policing fan art and using "Super Melee"?

And when we objected they started attacking the distribution of 25-year old DOS games and calling us thieves.

I agree that the accusations are really not helpful, and my current impression is that P&F have not been communicating very well throughout this whole disagreement.  My understanding is that because of the IP split, both Stardock and Paul probably need to agree on any sales of the old games via GoG or Steam, so he had the right to block sales, but he should have started with a polite email to you, rather than a DMCA takedown.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 44

I agree that the accusations are really not helpful,

For 'really not helpful' insert 'libel'.

It doesn't take an armchair lawyer or self-proclaimed 'expert' to distinguish what constitutes 'libel' and thus what may or may not be actionable...;)

Even the Fourth Estate uses the word 'alleged' to avoid the flak...;)

 

/me goes back to 'sitting on hands'.

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 45
For 'really not helpful' insert 'libel'.

Just so I can form my own opinion, can you point me to the allegedly libelous statements?  :-)

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 46

Just so I can form my own opinion, can you point me to the allegedly libelous statements? 

I'll happily leave that to Frogboy to point you in the right direction....;)

Reply #48 Top

They also refer to it as the "true" sequel in many other places online.  See exhibits.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 44


To be precise, their announcement was "...we are now working on a direct sequel to Star Control II® -- The Ur-Quan Masters, called Ghosts of the Precursors™".  This has slightly less proprietary connotations than "true sequel".  They still should not have used your mark without permission, but I believe that they have since corrected their infringing post.  If so, the only question left should be how much harm they caused by using the infringing wording, instead of the proper wording. 

Actually, they called it a true sequel in their original post.

"This is a passion project for us and we have committed to dedicating
some of our own time to creating a true sequel."

And we know of one example where they contacted a news site:

"We have a follow-up to the news that a Star Control game called Ghosts of the Precursors is being developed by Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III, aka Toys for Bob. Because Stardock owns the current rights to the series and is developing a new installment, we took the description of this as a "passion project" from the developers of the first two Star Control games to mean it is not an official installment in the series. It turns out that's not correct, as they say their newly revealed game is a direct sequel to Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters. Here's the statement of Fred and Bob, which raises some questions of its own, but sets the record straight:

We have never had a business relationship with Stardock and are creating independently a direct sequel to our 1992 game, Star Control® II -- The Ur-Quan Masters. We are doing this outside of Toys for Bob (per the Gamasutra article) as a passion project."

Reply #50 Top

Quoting Rhonin_the_wizard, reply 49
Actually, they called it a true sequel in their original post.

"This is a passion project for us and we have committed to dedicating some of our own time to creating a true sequel."

And we know of one example where they contacted a news site:

"Here's the statement of Fred and Bob, which raises some questions of its own, but sets the record straight:

We have never had a business relationship with Stardock and are creating independently a direct sequel to our 1992 game, Star Control® II -- The Ur-Quan Masters. We are doing this outside of Toys for Bob (per the Gamasutra article) as a passion project."

Ah, thanks; it looks like there were two places in the announcement where they talked about 'sequel'; in one that called it 'a direct sequel', in the other, 'a true sequel'.  I hadn't noted the second.

Still, the real problem was not that they called it a sequel, whether 'direct' or 'true'.  The problem was that they called it a sequel to 'Star Control', thereby forcing Stardock to defend its trademark.

EDIT: Also, *sigh*, for the old comments on bluesnews, from when it sounded like everyone would be getting along for the two efforts, instead of getting so *frumple*.