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Stardock response to Paul and Fred [UPDATE]

Stardock response to Paul and Fred [UPDATE]

UPDATE: Make sure you read the official statement from Stardock regarding newer events.

 

Re: November's blog post by Paul and Fred claiming Stardock's objection to their new game being promoted as a "true sequel" constitutes Stardock preventing them from doing a new game.

We are disappointed that Paul and Fred, two people we have a great deal of respect and admiration for, have chosen to imply that we are somehow preventing them from working on their new game. 

Stardock has been nothing but supportive of their new project and wish them the best. I personally made the post here on StarControl.com in support of it.

With regards to their contentions:

First, as many people know, the classic Star Control games have been available for sale long before Stardock acquired the rights from Atari four years ago.  For the entirety of the time we have held the rights, they have been getting paid for those sales.  If they had an objection to the games being sold this is something that could and should have been addressed before we were ever involved. 

Second, we have stated, repeatedly and consistently for over four years that we are not using any of the aliens from the classic series.  As we have stated, our position is that, to the best of our knowledge, the classic alien IP is owned by them. 

We have also discussed, at length, why it wasn't commercially viable for us to attempt to continue or retell the Ur-Quan story. 25 years is just too long of a gap.  This is one of the reasons why we have been so excited about Paul and Fred's project.  Their game frees us to introduce new characters and a new story into the new Star Control while allowing fans of the classic series a way to continue the classic story.  This strikes us as a win-win situation.

Lastly, when we acquired Star Control from Atari in 2013, many assets were transferred to us including the various publishing agreements to the Star Control franchise.  The short version is that the classic IP is messy. We understand that this makes them "really really angry" but we weren't a party to that agreement.  All we can do is try to put something together that releases them from the restrictions placed on their IP that they agreed to and transfer any and all rights and responsibilities to them.  We want them to make Ghosts but we don't want any liability or association with it.  

Given the disturbing and unanticipated post by Paul and Fred, we are persuaded more than ever that a clear and irrefutable document that makes it clear that we are not associated or involved with their new game is needed. 

We have nothing but respect and admiration for Paul and Fred and wish them well in their new project.  

Update 12/4/2017:

Paul and Fred continue to make unsubstantiated claims regarding the DOS-based Star Control games. If they have any documentation to provide evidence to their assertions, we have yet to see them. 

Stardock, by contrast, possesses a perpetual, exclusive, worldwide licensing and sales agreement that was explicitly transferred to us by Atari who in turn acquired it from Accolade that has Paul Reiche's signature along with a signed distribution agreement between Atari and GOG for the DOS Accolade Star Control games. 

The tone of their blog posts is similar to the kind of correspondence they had with us since the announcement of their Ur-Quan Masters successor, vague, full of demands and without any documentation.  

With all due respect to Paul and Fred, they really should talk to competent legal counsel instead of making blog posts.

Update 12/5/2017:

Dealing with the sales and distribution of 20+ year old DOS games is an unusual way to spend a Tuesday afternoon. Nevertheless...

Atari had transferred to Stardock a signed agreement between Atari's President and GOG that we assumed was the agreement. Paul and Fred claimed they were the ones who had set up the agreement and upon verification with GOG, we instructed them to terminate this agreement which they have which we appreciate.

The games are now correctly transferred to Stardock and we will continue to ensue that Fred and Paul receive royalty payments for the games per the publishing agreement. We apologize if anyone was inconvenienced.  

Old IP can be messy to deal with. The best way to deal with that is to have the parties talk to each other (as opposed to making public Internet posts) and work something out.   We remain committed to dealing with this situation with as much restraint and gentleness as possible.

Update 2/27/2018

Added link to https://www.starcontrol.com/article/487690/qa-regarding-star-control-and-paul-and-fred to address Paul and Fred's latest complaints.   

At this stage, the parties are seeking to resolve their disagreements in court.  Stardock wishes this could have been resolved otherwise.

For the record, if Paul and Fred had simply announced their game as a sequel to Ur-Quan Masters and requested Stardock to remove the DOS games from distribution, Stardock would have complied out of respect, even if we would have been unhappy that they chose now, after 25 years, to jump back in the middle of Stardock's efforts to bring Star Control back.

However, by promoting their new game as a "direct-sequel" to Star Control (and in other places as the "true" sequel) while using the Star Control box art (which is owned by Stardock)  a great deal of consumer confusion has been created requiring Stardock to protect its IP rights.

Other links:

7,352,713 views 688 replies
Reply #651 Top

Quoting Arch, reply 646


Quoting Frogboy,

The second Spathi, by contrast, belongs to Stardock as we have the registered copyright for it.  We could simply reproduce that Spathi without fear.  Not sure we would though.



For the love of all that is sacred and holy in the universe! Please, don't use the second Spathi! Burn it with fire!

The plan is to nuke it from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

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Reply #652 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 644

But that isn't the same as saying that they could just do it without coordinating together in some fashion to avoid confusion.   The Star Control aliens are part of...duh...the Star Control universe.  This isn't remotely controversial.  If someone else wants to use the aliens associated with Star Control they have to coordinate with us to communicate to the fans how the games relate to one another.   You can't use Star Control aliens and then say your game has nothing to do with Star Control. That's very confusing.  You also can't say your competing game is a sequel to Star Control (can I say that Star Control: Origins is the sequel to Mass Effect?).

I don't think it is anywhere near as cut and dry as that. Using the aliens as part of a work looks like a copyright issue, not a trademark issue. I think the copyright holder can use the aliens as long as they don't present their product as a Star Control product. Also, given that the content (voiceovers, dialogue, graphics, sounds, and music) of UQM has been released under creative commons licensing, I think anyone can use the aliens as long as they don't make money from doing so, or present their work as a Star Control product.

I do however agree you cannot say your competing game is a sequel. That looks like a trademark issue.

I do not think the aliens can be trademarks (yet) as they have not been used a such:

"...it is not enough just to claim a character as a trademark. Nor is it enough to register it. Normally, a character is protected by copyright as an original graphical work. A character can also operate as a trademark, but it has to be used in commerce as an identifier of the source of the goods." - https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-trademark-a-character

As an aside, Spathi are meta-molluscs; their purple arms are exoskeletal like a crab's, not mechanical.

Reply #653 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 644

I have no idea how any of this will end.  I am still shocked that any of this happened in the first place.  Star Control ended up in the hands of Paul and Fred super-fans.  Some on the UQM forums talk about being fans but none of them were willing to put up $9 million to bring Star Control back AND do so without using the original aliens out of deference to Paul and Fred in the hope that one day they would return.  But instead of recognizing the tremendous boon they had received, they instead set out, imo, to ruin us after years of cooperation and support the moment they apparently got permission to work on their "passion project".  You cannot even imagine how devastating that's been on a personal level.
 

It is so unfortunate that this debacle has happened.  As an diehard fan of the series, I hope you don't let this tarnish your passion to rebirth the magic that the original Star Control games brought to us all.  I have been waiting patiently for decades to see a sequel to SC2.  While this is not a sequel per se, what you and your team have done is absolutely fantastic and better than anything I could have expected.  I loaded up the Fleet Battles and you simply nailed the Star Control feeling, it brought tears to my eyes.  I doubt Paul and Fred could do better.  Well done to you and your team, seriously, well done.

On a side note, I would appreciate it if your team could start working from home.  Maybe even have underground shelters built in their backyards or at a minimum disperse yourselves around the world.  You know, just in case any sort of natural (or unnatural) disaster occurs, your team can continue their work.  Wouldn't want anything to happen to this gem.

Appreciate all of your efforts.

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Reply #655 Top

Quoting Obsid1anWolf, reply 653

On a side note, I would appreciate it if your team could start working from home.  Maybe even have underground shelters built in their backyards or at a minimum disperse yourselves around the world.  You know, just in case any sort of natural (or unnatural) disaster occurs, your team can continue their work.  Wouldn't want anything to happen to this gem.

Thanks for the kind words.  This game means a lot to us.   We are hopeful that as people play it, they will see how much attention has been put into tiny details.

 

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Reply #656 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 655

Thanks for the kind words.  This game means a lot to us.   We are hopeful that as people play it, they will see how much attention has been put into tiny details.
 

 

I would like to second Obsid1anWolf's post.

I think that Origins is nailing the Star Control vibe, and for me, that is more important than anything else.

I would love to see a new adventure with the old alien races, but if Stardock can recreate the magic with new races... I'm in.

Starfleet battles is great and getting better. I look forward to play the whole game when it launches.

Reply #657 Top

It's a shame both parties can't meet in the middle.   I mean the solution is so fucking obvious here it boggles my mind.

Why can't THEY work on a direct sequel to Star Control II while Star Dock works on the Origin story?   Why can't both side meet,  sit down draw out a roadmap,  exchange the monies and signatures to make it happen and get on with their respective projects?  

I for one would play both games, and support both teams.

The desire to generate conflict and drama where none is needed simply disturbs me no end.

Reply #658 Top

Quoting SportsBraThief, reply 657

Why can't THEY work on a direct sequel to Star Control II while Star Dock works on the Origin story? Why can't both side meet, sit down draw out a roadmap, exchange the monies and signatures to make it happen and get on with their respective projects?

Ask it to Paul and Fred. They want to have their cake and eat it too...

Reply #659 Top

All stardock would need is royaltys. Stardock does work with other game companies to make games. Toys for bob is real, but they are not willing to pay for a right to make a sequel.

 

Reply #660 Top

Since this thread is already pretty long, and it seems like we may be diverting again from the posted topic, I've taken the moderator's suggestion and created a new thread for discussion of the litigation that doesn't strictly fit under "Stardock responding to Paul and Fred".  How about we move further discussion there, until P&F post something new for Stardock to respond to?

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Reply #661 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 644

Paul and Fred chose to promote their new game as the "true sequel to Star Control".  They even used the (R) (which kills any fair use argument even if they weren't explicitly forbidden from using the marks by contract even if the term of the agreement expired).  They have refused to stop doing this. 

They seem to have rather explicitly stopped doing this?


They also chose to insist that the Star Control aliens would be in their new game

"Despite having an exclusive license to the IP in question, we are not looking to block your endeavor. We are incredibly excited to find out the true nature of the Orz, what happened to the Androsynth, how the Captain ended up getting together with the Syrene."

I mean, with you sending them emails like that, why wouldn't they include the old Star Control aliens?

Reply #663 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 662


Quoting SportsBraThief,

Why can't THEY work on a direct sequel to Star Control II while Star Dock works on the Origin story?



That was basically the settlement that P&F proposed: https://www.dogarandkazon.com/blog/2018/3/24/nope-and-nope

Brad can presumably speak to why Star Dock declined that settlement.

III b  (F&P can use the name Star Control for their new game) and all of V  (a-Stardock can't display fanart, b- very broad claims on pretty much any UI element and gameplay.  This includes any and all future Stardock games). Would be my guess. 

Reply #664 Top

Frogboy, 

This thread was posted today and its definition of what copyright does contradicts what I have read here, meaning that If you want to protect your stuff you use Trademark. 

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Pat#What_rights_are_protected_under_copyright.3F

 

 

Reading this thread implies that F&P literally own and operate all things Star Control. 

 

What rights are protected under copyright?[edit]

Copyright is secured automatically whenever a work (such as computer software, literary work, or other authorship) is created, and does not need to be registered.[1][2] This gives the copyright holder exclusive rights to the authored work, including the right to reproduce, distribute, or sell that work.

The copyright holder also controls the right to create derivative works based on the original work.[3] For example, a sequel to a game or a movie using characters and other elements from the original would be a derivative work, and needs the permission of the original copyright holder.[4][5] The creator of the derivative work would be limited to copyrights in the new elements only, and their rights would exclude anything copied from the pre-exising work.[6]

 

I just wanted to get your insight on what they are posting. 

 

This implies that Stardock is infringing on thier copyright and seems to imply they brought the lawsuit up..again its very confusing.

 

 

So what caused the copyright dispute?[edit]

On October 19 2017, Stardock began selling the original copyrighted games through Steam.[7] Reiche and Ford said they did not authorize this and requested a takedown,[8] and Stardock responded that Reiche and Ford's request includes "Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement".[9] In fact, Star Control 3 does use copyrighted characters and content from the first two games.[10] Star Control 3 is a derivative work based on Star Control 1&2, which Accolade could only create with permission from Reiche and Ford, as seen in the 1995 addendum to their original agreement.[11]

How can Stardock legally sell games copyrighted by someone else?[edit]

Stardock claims they purchased a license to sell and distribute the three games (among other legal rights), "that was explicitly transferred to us by Atari who in turn acquired it from Accolade".[12] Recall that in 1988, Reiche/Ford had granted Accolade the right to sell their Star Control games.[13](pgph 2.2-3.1) Stardock has claimed that they purchased this agreement from Atari at bankruptcy in 2013,[14](pgph 20)whereas Reiche and Ford claim that this agreement had expired.[15](pgph 33, 57)

Reply #665 Top

Quoting Larsenex, reply 664

Frogboy, 

This thread was posted today and its definition of what copyright does contradicts what I have read here, meaning that If you want to protect your stuff you use Trademark. 

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Pat#What_rights_are_protected_under_copyright.3F

 

 

It's so nice that their fan wiki is on the internet making their misinterpetations true cause you know it's there and you can read it so it must be true...

 

Meanwhile over at the actual US copyright office you can read a significant difference in what a Copyright does.......
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html

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Reply #666 Top

Quoting Taslios, reply 665


Quoting Larsenex,

Frogboy, 

This thread was posted today and its definition of what copyright does contradicts what I have read here, meaning that If you want to protect your stuff you use Trademark. 

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Pat#What_rights_are_protected_under_copyright.3F

 



 

It's so nice that their fan wiki is on the internet making their misinterpetations true cause you know it's there and you can read it so it must be true...

 

Meanwhile over at the actual US copyright office you can read a significant difference in what a Copyright does.......
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html

 

Thanks Tsalios, I am NOT trying to stir the pot but was just wanting information. The forum there seems pretty uh..toxic..

Reply #667 Top

Quoting Larsenex, reply 664

Copyright is secured automatically whenever a work (such as computer software, literary work, or other authorship) is created, and does not need to be registered.[1][2] This gives the copyright holder exclusive rights to the authored work, including the right to reproduce, distribute, or sell that work.
The copyright holder also controls the right to create derivative works based on the original work.[

Yep...that's correct.  However the 'who' of that authorship depends specifically on your status of employment.

If you are working FOR a company it is THEY who own the 'exclusive rights'.  You get nothing other than the chance to say 'I did this [for someone else]'.

Formal registration isn't needed however Lawyers like you to do so because it makes their job easier, nothing else....;)

Reply #668 Top

Curiously this thread has lost all the formatting in IE ...though Chrome is fine....

Reply #669 Top

Stardock’s complaint involves the immense confusion caused by Paul and Fred’s activities over the past several months. There is only one Star Control franchise.

In response to Stardock’s complaint, Paul and Fred files a countersuit alleging that the 1988 licensing agreement has expired and thus the old DOS games can’t be distributed anymore.  

If all goes well for them in the copyright countersuit, they could keep the old DOS games from being sold. That’s about the extent.  

However, if they lose the trademark suit, they would owe damages and potentially pay all of our legal costs. We literally have no choice but to defend our IP.  

Some of their fans have...very generous interpretations of what copyright can cover in video games and Star Control in particular.  For example, the Arilou are in Star Control:Origins. You can’t copyright a name nor can you copyright ideas or descriptions.  You can’t even copyright a recipe let alone a timeline or species descriptions. Our artistic interpretation of the Arilou will necessarily be different from what was in SC2 or SC3 just like artists have updated the look of the Altarians and Yor over the years.

The Arilou, like the Ur-Quan and Spathi are part of the Star Control universe. As owners of the brand, we decide what is and isn’t in the Star Control universe. This isn’t even a controversial thing as any follower of comic books can tell you.

We have a great deal of respect for Paul and Fred’s works over the years and they are entitled to the works they created. We have no plans to use any of that work and still hope that they will be able to create new works in the Star Control universe.

Reply #670 Top

Thanks for reply!

Reply #671 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 669

Some of their fans have...very generous interpretations of what copyright can cover in video games and Star Control in particular.  For example, the Arilou are in Star Control:Origins. You can’t copyright a name nor can you copyright ideas or descriptions.  You can’t even copyright a recipe let alone a timeline or species descriptions. Our artistic interpretation of the Arilou will necessarily be different from what was in SC2 or SC3 just like artists have updated the look of the Altarians and Yor over the years.

Addendum no. 3 to the license agreement says: "The Reiche Intellectual Property shall include proprietary rights in and to any source code, names (of starships and alien races), characters, plot lines, setting, terminology unique to the Star Control products, and music in and to (a) - (d) above."

So it would seem there's an actual legal document saying that yes, Reiche owns the names? Maybe calling it a "copyright" is wrong, but it seems pretty clear cut that whatever "proprietary rights" you can have to a name, they belong to Reiche?

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html page 62.

(And earlier in the same document, it mentions that Star Control 3 licensed, amongst other things, names from Reiche)

Reply #672 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 671

Addendum no. 3 to the license agreement says: "The Reiche Intellectual Property shall include proprietary rights in and to any source code, names (of starships and alien races), characters, plot lines, setting, terminology unique to the Star Control products, and music in and to (a) - (d) above."

And just as I said to you in the other thread a few minutes ago, you can't do that in a contract. You can't protect rights to names any more than you can story elements, that's ridiculous. Saying you can in a contract doesn't mean it's true.

Edit: And Paul very much does not own the rights to the music, even though he says he does in that agreement, because it's owned by the musician who made the music (much of which was made by Riku, who is also composing SCO). Yet another way that contract is full errors.

Reply #673 Top

@GMOrz

Are you now arguing the 1988 agreement is in effect?  And was Addendum 3 not for Star Control IV which was never made?  

 

Reply #674 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 673

@GMOrz
Are you now arguing the 1988 agreement is in effect?

Oh, I didn't realize the 1998 agreement wasn't in effect ^^;

Quoting bleybourne, reply 672

you can't do that in a contract. (...) Yet another way that contract is full errors.

Ahh, thanks. I had assumed since there was a contract assigning rights, that those right must be a real thing. I didn't realize the contract was riddled with errors. I'm still pretty new to all of this :)

 
Reply #675 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 674

Oh, I didn't realize the 1998 agreement wasn't in effect ^^;

Unless there's a Star Control IV out there they made, I'm not sure how any of that applies.