Response to Paul and Fred

Nevermind. Read the Discord.

Get a lunch with them and clear things up. Wish you the best in resolving this nonsensical situation!

Coming from a business background myself, your position seems to make more sense. But I think the only way to really clear the air and set the record straight would be a public release of the document outlining the agreement they had with Accolade. Not sure on the feasibility of doing that as those sorts of materials can be sensitive, but that would really be the only way to tell which side is talking crazy. 

If there is a legal battle over this the only ones who would win are lawyers. The fans, Stardock and Paul & Fred would all lose.

Now regarding Paul and Fred's announcement.

If this is true how come the classic games have been available for purchase on GOG since 2011?

I thought they washed their hands of SC3? Now they claim to own it as well.

They seem to not want to acknowledge the agreement they had with Accolade.

After thinking about it for a while here are my suggestions for Stardock, keep in mind I have no knowledge of laws.

• if it is legally possible make available online the document between Paul and Accolade
• also post the document through which you wanted to return the rights to Paul and Fred
• if it possible post proof of royalties paid to Paul and Fred from the sale of classic games
  • if you have any from when Atari owned the IP post that as well
• if P&F continue to claim you don't have a license for the classic lore, threaten to include some cameos in Origins, the Orz and Arilou would do nicely
• if P&F still want you to discontinue sales of the old games only agree to it if they would post the announcement in which they are asking you to stop selling them, make sure to stipulate that you are doing this out of respect for them, not legal obligations
• if they take you to court and you win put the condition that only Stardock can publish Ghosts of the Precursors if they want to continue working on it

A public PR battle is not going to help anyone.

The lawyers will find out what, exactly is their issue. Their post is all over the place and seems a general rant about the Accolade agreement which, obviously, we weren’t involved in.

The SC 1/2 IP is very messy. We don’t want to be involved with it. But there does need to be a legal document to clean it up so that we never have to be involved with it.

Them suggesting that we are trying to stop their game in any way is dishonest. We have been nothing but supportive. 

All it does it make it even more important that the remnants of their old publishing agreement get put to bed because we are not about to be set up as the bad guy in the event they choose not to finish their game.

Just posting some of my thoughts so I won't forget them.

If this is a misunderstanding why didn't they contact Brad directly since we know they were in talks?

If they, P&F, had a legal leg to stand on why not just send a cease and desist letter to Stardock rather than posting a statement on a blog?

Why post the statement on a Friday afternoon when there would be no one at the office of Stardock to make an official response?

I found it very telling something that you said in Discord, @Frogboy:

> Beacuse it seems like they're trying to turn the fans against us.

You're right, it very much does seem like that.

I'm wondering if they are concerned about SCO and that it may outshine Ghosts - they've seen everything the founders have (more, even) and are aware of how it's going. They know it will come out long before Ghosts, and if it's really good that could impact the success of Ghosts in sales. Even more so if Ghosts turns out to be anything other than brilliant - think about it. Stardock can get away with making a Starcon game that's above average even if it's not brilliant (I'm not saying SCO wont be great, I'm making a point) because it's a new company working with someone else's IP. People are going to say "Cool - we waited 25 years, this is pretty good and certainly better than nothing". But if P&F make a Starcon sequel that is anything less than extraordinary, people are going to be really disappointed because it's P&F and so expectations are that much higher.

Couple all that with the fact that SCO will scratch that itch for a lot of people long before Ghosts can come out, and I suspect P&F are feeling a very great deal of pressure and they're pushing back in much the same way that my child does - they're throwing their toys out of the cot and trying to sour people against SCO so it will fail and not have any chance of impacting Ghosts. It smacks of very sour grapes, especially given that they have been involved all the way along through the development of SCO.

It's a shame. I really hope this gets resolved quickly. I'm personally looking forward to having TWO SC2-like games to enjoy.

(although, to be fair, even I have higher expectations for P&F than I do for SCO, and am likely to be far more critical of Ghosts if it's not amazing that I would be of SCO if it's not amazing. That's just the nature of the beast when you make a game like SC2 that is so incredible - people have expectations for the sequel).

If Paul and Fred are reading these forums, I would suggest too them that they have nothing to worry about in terms of SCO being far more massive than what I imagine they intend too make.  As a huge fan of their games, I would see their far smaller and less modable continuation of the original story and game as the "classic" continuation and SCO as the "big budget massive explosion of Star Control".  Very different, and both good in their own way.  SCO might be far more massive, with a much bigger budget... but their game is their story as only they can tell it, and the kind of smaller and simpler arcade game that many people will actually prefer.

They shouldn't see SCO as a threat, they should see it as something that only makes their "Star Control" a far bigger, more massive, and more extensive universe than their game would be on its own.  They help each other.  SCO gives modern gamers a re-imagining of Star Control as a 2018 type of game, their game gives modern gamers a taste of the true Star Control of old with a story that only they can tell.

Just like JJ Abrahms is not capable of telling a Star Trek story that Gene Roddenberry fans accept, Stardock is not capable of telling a story that Star Control junkies would accept as the true completion of their story.  Only the original storyteller can tell their story the way that they tell it.  They shouldn't be concerned by this.

I actually kind of agree with Kavik for the first time ever....time to delete my account.

Public revelation won't help anyone.  Observers will claim some agenda or other.

What IS needed is a polite and legal-worded warning that public utterances by anyone that may adversely affect the public's perception of one side or other WILL result in defamation suit/s.

That right to "free Speech" doesn't include slander/libel ....;)

I'm hoping this is resolved in a manner that allows P&F full control of their IPs and that untangles StarDock from any idiocy caused by Accolade and Activision without tanking them or this product.

I am first and foremost a Star Control fan and I also believe in creator's rights.

NDA activated:

So that we're all clear here:

Stardock very much wants Ghosts of the Precursors to happen.   The average user would be shocked at the things we would be willing to do to help them make that happen.

However, we cannot allow Ghosts of the Precursors to be called a Star Control game or be represented as a continuation of a Star Control game.  That creates market confusion.   In addition, we literally have an agreement that was transferred to us by Atari that explicitly forbids Paul and Fred from using the licensed IP for sequels.  As in, black and white spelled out signed by them.  That provision survives termination (so even if the contract "expired" this remains).

We would not stop them from making Ghosts even if they weren't willing to sign a release. We'd just not enforce that provision.  But it's foolish not to take us up on the offer to release them just because they're still angry about the old Accolade stuff.  Stardock is not Accolade.  We want to help them.

This is how all this petty disagreement on distribution of the old DOS games got going and then increasingly unreasonable demands.

Now they are actively trying to portray themselves as the owners of Star Control (I, II, and III).  They are not.  They never were.  Accolade was.  One look at the box makes that clear.  

So it is an unfortunate situation.  And completely unnecessary.

However, I still believe within 90% that we will end up with a resolution that lets them do Ghosts of the Precursors without any involvement from us.   They are just making that very...very hard right now.

Also, regarding lawyers.  One of my last emails to them expressed that I could make myself available at any time to talk to them on the phone to work out a win-win agreement.  The next response came from their lawyer instructing me not to talk to them anymore and that the lawyers would take it from there.

I don't want anyone to think of them as villains.  I still hold them in high regard.  I think they have transferred a lot of unresolved frustration they had towards Accolade to us.

I've been somewhat in awe/fanboymode of Paul and Fred most of my life, StarCon and SC2 being such formulative games during my childhood (well, late childhood, but still).

So it's quite a bitter pill to swallow now, after 25 years of essentially idolising them, that they are for all intents and purposes shitting all over that legacy and now they're starting to look like a couple of desperate losers who had an accidental breakaway hit (which, as it turns out, they didn't have nearly as much involvement in the creation of as everyone thought and as they themselves have portrayed) who suddenly seem to think that that accidental success entitles them to ignore agreements and contracts (and common sense) and try to score points in the public forum by milking that image because they know that legally they don't actually have a leg to stand on. They can't win this, but in the meantime they're going to try to make damn sure that they shit the bed for anyone else who tries to follow in Star Controls footsteps (i.e. Brad and co).

I really wish they would stop destroying their own image. It's heartbreaking.

I have tried not to be emotional on this topic and I won't publicly.

But this whole thing has been soul crushing on a personal level.

My email correspondence would embarrass most of you. It's absolute fanboyism.  

I've been sharing all our inner most stuff for four years.  They even know our internal release date. Something you guys don't know about.

When I see them call me by name in their posts I have two reactions.  Part of it is "Weeeee! Paul Reiche mentioned me!" before the horror comes in that they're vilifying me.

If the issue was just a matter of discontinuing the old games -- i.e. if that would make them happy. I'd do it in a heart beat.  We had no idea this was an issue at all until literally weeks ago and that was only AFTER they started doing things that are really problematic for us like calling their game an official sequel to Star Control II and referring to the Star Control games as their games that we have no association with  even though we we absolutely do.

We've spent four years on this game.  That's longer than they spent on Star Control II.  They had all these years to do something and they said they would someday come back to make a new story in the Ur-Quan universe (I always assumed they'd call it Ur-Quan Masters II).  

Instead, they're backing us into a corner and making us, their biggest fans, fans willing to spend millions of dollars to bring Star Control back from the wilderness -- while not touching their aliens or lore, the targets of their ire.

If I didn't have a responsibility to you and my employees, I'd quit.  I only did this game out of love for Star Control.  It's just heart breaking.

I don't understand why we can't just have a lunch, I'd be happy to fly down there, and work something out. 

The last time I offered, I was met with lawyers.  THEY, not us, brought lawyers in first.

Thanks for your honesty. I can imagine how crappy this has all been for you, and I truly appreciate the approach you have taken with this (for the most part). I wish there was something the fans could do. I strongly hope that the saga will end now, although I feel that this may make them close up even more. :/

What a Kobayashi Maru. I guess staying publicly positive, reiterating your deep admiration for them, and that you'd love to take them to an expensive lunch is the course of action I'd try if I was in your shoes. Hope it is some form of deep misunderstanding on their part rather than malice. Hard to stop things trending toxic when lawyers get involved, but hope that you're able to (at least publicly) keep up that positive attitude towards them that you've always shown.

I wish we could change the conditions of the test too.  This is looking like a no-win situation all around-doubly so with them probably sending a C&D letter to GOG because that forces you to protect your IP.  I would say, rather than take this all in front of a judge, try to get arbitration so it can be worked out, only resorting to going to court AFTER that fails.  You have 4 years of development done and a product you are selling.  They have what?  2 months of work and maybe 20-25 years of notes on what they'd like to do?  The ideal changed conditions would be you publishing the game as a sequel and apart of the founders program while they use the Origins engine.  The next ideal is they self-publish, you allow them use of the engine.  The current trend looks like Ghosts is shut down and anything they owned goes back to you, along with P&F being fired for their shenanigans. The WORST case would be BOTH games having to suspend development for a indefinite amount of time, Stardock losing a lotta cash, AND P&F fired/blacklisted for what they are doing.

None of this affects Star Control: Origins one way or the other.  I should have some new goodies for you guys shortly on that end. 

While it annoys me personally, it doesn't have any impact on the amazingly talented people who make up the Star Control team.

Good. One thing you can be sure about is that we're (us on Discord and these forums) all rooting for SCO. We can't help in the legal shit, but you know we're behind you guys.

I want Origins to succeed, but I don't like the way it's turned into such an F&P bashing pile-on (the Discord especially has become downright vicious - I've unsubscribed from the channel for multiple reasons, but that was one).

Maybe I shouldn't be saying this here, but the fact is we've heard Stardock's side repeatedly in great detail and have so far only heard the broad strokes of F&P's. I'm not saying Brad is lying when he says Stardock's case is airtight, but I'm sure F&P have consulted with lawyers and think the case on their side is strong too. I seriously doubt the interpetations that they've gone completely insane and are self-sabotaging to have an excuse not to make Ghosts.

It's also easy to see how saying "you don't actually have the rights you think you've had for decades" could come across as threatening to them and trigger an overreaction, even if it was not intended that way and Stardock may even be correct in the end. I want both sides to reach an amenable agreement but am withholding judgment on the legal matters, though I don't think they should have gone public.

Like I said, I of course hope Origins is successful.

I am sorry you felt that way about the atmosphere on the discord server. Drama is certainly not something I want to be encouraged on our server and we have already taken steps to help refocus the discussion on what I think all founders can agree on: To help make Origins the best game it can be.

If you ever return to the server please let me know so you can be added back to the founders there.