Star Control Fleet Battle Beta feedback.

Parts, Design and combat.

from StarControl Forums

As a Star Control Veteran I am excited to see Star Dock try their hand at the game.  I realize we all are playing for different reasons and have different memories of the games and things we liked and didn't like, so i'll post cut and dry stuff first and viewpoints second.

I saw someone else mention what I had in mind and that is a better way to sift through all the different parts.  Now granted most of the bits are for visual appearance until you get to the engine, thrusters and weapon mounts, but I would definitely look into different ways to sort things.  Whether it is the ability to favorite certain parts, have a way to categorize what certain parts look like, such as wings, connectors, and so on, or to allow players to manually group them.  

I would like to see the ability to change what the weapons look like as well.  Beyond the visuals, I want the placement and direction that the weapon is facing to affect which direction the weapon fires.  I think the ability to place multiple weapon placements is an important option to allow custom ship creators greater control of their design.  How you adjust having multiple weapon placements would need to be tweaked with further play and feedback.  I have also seen someone else post about more weapon types as well.  This would be good.  I also think that perhaps allowing the players to tweak the weapons visuals would allow for more variation and design choice.  Along the same lines, the audio and visuals of weapons need to be robust and if not unique, have some sort of defining quality to them.  The Human Cruiser in Star Control II would make a particular noise when launching their nukes which I can distinctly remember at this very moment.  The Spathi had their Backwards Utilizing Tracking Torpedoes which acted very similar to the human nukes with minor tweaks(damage, direction of fire, distance, speed, tracking), and also had a unique signature sound.  Part of what made Star Control and Star Control II so memorable and enjoyable was how much life and creativity each of the races and their ships had.

As for combat, my main issues are as follows.  The gravity well, the edge of the map and the asteroids.  The gravity well needs to be a little bit bigger and tweaked for slingshot maneuvers and using the planet as a shield to increase gameplay options.  At the moment the asteroids in the beta are just frustrating.  I am not a fan of the damage you receive when colliding with them.  Yes I know that this is more realistic, but it isn't fun.  There are so many stagnant asteroids just sitting out there.  I preferred the fewer, but more random moving ones from Star Control II.  The ones that didn't hurt nor explode when you collided with them.  Yes, they stopped you and could be destroyed with your weapons, but they were more fun.  As for the barrier around the map.....   I don't like feeling trapped in a ring.  I prefer the old method with having the edge connect with a different edge.  I can see how that might disorient some people, but it felt like you had more freedom.

I would love to hear other people's feedback and thoughts.

 

Captain Fwiffo signing off.

21,124 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from StarControl Forums Top

Correction...

"Captain Fwiffo bravely runs away!"

;-)

 

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

"I would like to see the ability to change what the weapons look like as well"

I would not like that at all, see that's exactly what i meant way back in the development phase here on this forum by too much customization, gameplay would be odd if someone fires a projectile that looks unfamiliar to the opposing player for one.

It would feel like cheating/un authentic as well, it's like taking an arrow and dressing it up as a missile, at the end it's still just an arrow. And actualy knowing it makes it even more "dull" for lack of better word right now. All being the same thing looking different.

That's also the reason i did not want any custom ships in the game, as it's all just the same thing looking different, it's not UNIQELY different. I wanted Stardock to create say 15 uniquely well designed ships, as was done in star control 2, and give that to the players, that was perfectly adequete for players back then, there was no complaining, and it would be perfect now as well.

But i guess i would have to live with the fact i'm shooting a "prop" of just a copy of another generic ship.

Also the focus should not be taken away from the game itself towards spending hours just to fancy dress a generic ship.

I'm sorry if some did not want to hear this but it's how it is, i love the game and will definately play SC Origins. Just speaking my mind, i've never been one to hold back that i like realism more than "photoshopping" something into something diffrent.

"I want the placement and direction that the weapon is facing to affect which direction the weapon fires"
Along the same lines, the audio and visuals of weapons need to be robust and if not unique, have some sort of defining quality to them"

That sounds plausible no objection there. i have not played the beta yet, but if the weapons was as unique and robust as it was in SC2 or even even better. i'd be happy with that.

I agree the audio needs to be fixed, i'm sure they are working on it as we speak.

Totally agree on the gravity and the asteroids, that perfect "star control 2" balance is critical for a balanced enjoyable melee experience.

Away with barriers, i agree, i want to feel limitless, if you like the game, you will embrace no barriers.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top


As for combat, my main issues are as follows.  The gravity well, the edge of the map and the asteroids.  The gravity well needs to be a little bit bigger and tweaked for slingshot maneuvers and using the planet as a shield to increase gameplay options.  At the moment the asteroids in the beta are just frustrating.  I am not a fan of the damage you receive when colliding with them.  Yes I know that this is more realistic, but it isn't fun.  There are so many stagnant asteroids just sitting out there.  I preferred the fewer, but more random moving ones from Star Control II.  The ones that didn't hurt nor explode when you collided with them.  Yes, they stopped you and could be destroyed with your weapons, but they were more fun.  As for the barrier around the map.....   I don't like feeling trapped in a ring.  I prefer the old method with having the edge connect with a different edge.  I can see how that might disorient some people, but it felt like you had more freedom.

I agree with everything you said.

The gravity well's size is okay, it's the intensity that needs toning down to enable slingshot maneuvers.

I'm not a fan of the asteroids as well. And yes, I agree that it feels like you're fighting in a ring - a cage match perhaps. It renders fast ships useless in my opinion. I hate having to maneuver my ship along the edges of the asteroid belt, especially when you're running away from a Battlecruiser and the camera is zoomed all the way in but you can't see where you're going - which is stupid. Of course the ship's captain knows they're headed into a bunch of asteroids. It's part of the reason why the Battlecruiser is dominating so much in the current arena since it can easily catch up with even the faster ships because of the asteroids. Speed is useless when you're constantly worried you're going to run into a bunch of asteroids. I imagine an Ur-Quan Dreadnought's fighters can easily catch up and kill any ship in this game atm.

That said, the old method of coming out of the opposite edge of the battlefield has its problems but it's miles better than the cage match we now have. it felt like you had more freedom and could really abuse the speed of your faster ships. I remember just gawking over the speed of my Spathi/Shofixti ships and letting Mycon ships eat dust in the old games.

Reply #4 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting UrQuanian, reply 2

"I would like to see the ability to change what the weapons look like as well"

I would not like that at all, see that's exactly what i meant way back in the development phase here on this forum by too much customization, gameplay would be odd if someone fires a projectile that looks unfamiliar to the opposing player for one.

It would feel like cheating/un authentic as well, it's like taking an arrow and dressing it up as a missile, at the end it's still just an arrow. And actualy knowing it makes it even more "dull" for lack of better word right now. All being the same thing looking different.

That's also the reason i did not want any custom ships in the game, as it's all just the same thing looking different, it's not UNIQELY different. I wanted Stardock to create say 15 uniquely well designed ships, as was done in star control 2, and give that to the players, that was perfectly adequete for players back then, there was no complaining, and it would be perfect now as well.

But i guess i would have to live with the fact i'm shooting a "prop" of just a copy of another generic ship.

Also the focus should not be taken away from the game itself towards spending hours just to fancy dress a generic ship.

I'm sorry if some did not want to hear this but it's how it is, i love the game and will definately play SC Origins. Just speaking my mind, i've never been one to hold back that i like realism more than "photoshopping" something into something diffrent.
I'm inclined to agree here, albeit from a somewhat different viewpoint.

 

It feels like the idea of the ship builder is for people to make their own ships that are usable and balanced for competitive multiplayer. However, this puts a lot of limitations on the system. One of these is that it does mean that weapons are limited to a preset list so that Stardock can give the weapons appropriate point values and that opposing players can know what's being shot at them, which does limit creativity to just trying different combinations of existing weapons. The other is that simply having different combinations of existing weapons (along with other ship characteristics) still places some limits on what even Stardock can do. There are a few weapons and systems on Star Control 2 ships (and some of this is seen in Kessari Quadrant ships as well) that are essentially only balanced because other characteristics of the ship limit just how much they can be abused. I think the Mycon crew regeneration has been cited on this forum, while shields are something that is invariably balanced by battery issues (the Terminator can only shield for brief periods, while a Jugger that drains its shields has lost them for the battle). Such systems, in an environment where they can be mixed-and-matched, can only really be balanced according to the most abusive use they can be put to or left out altogether.

And even this allows for players to use the ship crafting to do some sneaky things. Somebody using a crafted ship, even if statistically identical to a stock ship, might gain an advantage because their opponent doesn't immediately know it's just a copy of a stock ship. Somebody could even use the system to make a set of ships that look the same but which have different behaviour, so when they select a new ship their opponent doesn't know if it's something new or something they've already seen. Or, conversely, have all their ships having different appearances even if some are identical in behaviour, with the same result.


Personally, when I heard of the ship builder, I was thinking of it more as a tool for people to come up with their own ships when working on new campaigns and the like rather than something that would be usable in competitive multiplayer (at least without being approved by whoever's running the competition). As it currently stands... mixing and matching existing weapons and systems doesn't allow much scope for that. Presumably modding will allow a little more freedom in this respect!

Reply #5 from StarControl Forums Top

Just throwing in my $0.02 from the limited amount of time I have been playing against the computer solo.

 

Graphical Corruption: Could just be my machine as I was only able to create this scenario once, but I have tried to recreate yet am unable to get the precise flow of events to potentially recreate the scenario. I was playing Trandals versus Scryve Battlecruiser. Used Speed Burst to fly just past the BC, getting clipped by the laser, pull a 180, start moving forward as I shoot the Laser Ribbon Bola, and graphical corruption formed a line from that blast to the right edge of the screen in a weird V-shaped Big Long Range Laser graphic, but the BC wasn't firing as it was still trying to turn. Again, could definitely just be my machine, but figured I would throw it out there in case anyone else hit it. AMD Radeon 380, 4GB not overclocked.

Gravity Wells: These definitely need tweaking. There seems to be minimal speed increase when accelerating towards the flow of gravity. Gravity seems to affect larger ships more (which is GREAT!), but simply entering the gravity well seems to slow down your ship regardless of directions being flown.

Race Pictures: These are cool, and I'd personally prefer to see the race I am flying as instead of a '?' on grey background because I haven't chosen an avatar.

Balance: There seem to be some real balance issues and how many points that particular ship/race cost. The Scryve Battlecruiser is a great obliterator so long as you can turn quickly enough. You'll get lots of clipping shots with the main cannon against everything besides The Measured. That being said, the Menkmack ship is only 14 points, can call in additional ships, and can leave a plethora of mines EVERYWHERE. I do enjoy the Drenkend ship concept though. Cause a little bit of damage but shut the ship down while your boarding party lands to take out the crew en masse.

Hard Edged Arena: I definitely prefer having a looped arena instead of one with hard borders, but that's just personal preference.

Asteroids: These fragging things are a real pain in my ... asteroid. More losses to asteroid collisions than to enemy fire.

Dan'nath Trickster: Once gravity wells get a good sound revisit, these folks might need an itsy bitsy, teensy weensy, smaller than large nerfing. As it is, their turn rate combined with the ability to create their own gravitational fields to escape planetary gravity wells, AND throwing limited lifetime singularities at varying distances (keep holding that button!)... if gravity worked properly they would be nigh unstoppable.

 

Again, just my $0.02, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now I'm going to have to reinstall 'The Ur-Quan Masters' HD beta again to get back into the saddle. :D

Reply #6 from StarControl Forums Top

Hi Guys,

I'm pretty excited for Origins! Have been waiting sooo long for a SC follow up!

My comments so far on the fleet battles Beta:

(1) It's great to be able to play using controllers! I love that, however, it's frustrating to have to go to the mouse when in the menus, selecting a fleet, etc. All the menus should work with the controllers. In fact, the whole game, including the main campaign, when released, should be 100% controller friendly.

(2) The mouse pointer does not auto-hide and remains on screen, and in the way, all the time.

(3) The space battle does not feel like space...It feels like an arena with the asteroid ring wall. Perhaps different play areas should be available...The original wrap around space should definitely be available to play in. Having said that, the idea of asteroids isn't bad, but shouldn't they rather be floating around space rather that forming an artificial wall. These and other could be options for multiplayer battles, or built into various different battle zones.

(4) While playing local versus games: Sometimes when one ship explodes/dies, the camera pans to the winner immediately so that the actual explosion is not shown. It wasn't really clear what was going on the first few times. The explosion should be shown fully, thereafter the camera should pan to the winner.

(5) While playing local versus games: While one player is selecting a new ship, the action continues in the background, but the player which still has a ship in play can't control it...this results in the ship repeatedly smashing into the planet or asteroids in many cases. I'm not sure if damage is still counted, but it looks silly. Rather pause the action in the background.

(6) The sound does not seem to have the same impact as the original SC2. I'm referring to the winning jingles, and for example the sound when the human ship launches its missiles. Perhaps it's cause I'm used to the sound from SC2, but perhaps other notice the same thing.

 

Think that's all for now.

Cheers.