Planet & Gravity (New)

from StarControl Forums

Today's version is better, but the planet is still too big if you are wanting to achieve the “sling shot effect” these games are known for. The gravity is both too weak and too strong at the same time. It is too weak to sling shot you up to a noticeably higher speed than you are already moving because you can't get close enough to the singularity, and the ships are moving so fast that they overcome much of the gravity instead of being flung around the planet/singularity by it. It is too strong because it is too far reaching, so ships like the Menkmack get stuck at the planet (instead of being flung away in a slingshot). They AI is better at avoiding the planet now, but the planet is so big they still usually hit it instead of sling-shotting around it. Right now the planet works more like a magnet than a slingshot, the exact opposite of what it should be. Remember SC2? The biggest ships like the Ur Quan and Khor Ah were actually bigger than the planet. Remember?

I'll make a post about the ships again later tonight (or tomorrow) after I can play the new version more. The Earth ship's missile works much better now with its turn rate reduced by 66%. But I can still take out half of the enemy lineup with it because it is still retrograde heaven, just like the Dan'Nath. The Dan'Nath SHOULD be the retrograder, that is what the weapon is designed to do. But it should be a medium/slower ship that NEEDS to keep placing the gravity wells in good spots to keep they other ship from catching up too it. And, when the gravity is working better, the gravity wells will actually “grab and turn” the enemy ship which significantly impedes its progress. The Earth ship missile should be “medium range” so that it has to expose itself to return fire in order to use it against most ships. Its too easy to just hover outside of range and lob missiles backwards until you win, even now that it takes skill to aim them.

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Reply #1 from StarControl Forums Top

My opinion is both the nuke and the black hole are retrograde weapons.

Reply #2 from StarControl Forums Top

But the nuke is so effective and easy to aim that it is brain dead easy to eliminate half the enemy ship lineup with it.  Is the Earth ship supposed to be even more powerful than the Scryve?  It is a hard thing to break out of the thinking that all the ships should be balanced with each other, they shouldn't.  The Measured, for example, should not be able to realistically defeat the Scryve.  The way of thinking of "balance" within SVC's BPV system, which is what Star Control uses, is that the ship should be able to (on average) do as much damage as it is worth in points before being destroyed by the bigger and more powerful ship.

The "classes" are the structure within this works.  The very first true "clone" of another game was Battletech.  Battletech was "greatly simplified Star Fleet Battles with robots instead of space ships".  If you play Mech Warrior Online you can still see SFB's class system within MWO.  The ships aren't supposed to be balanced in a 1v1 fight unless they are of the same class.

As the tribute to SVC character of ST:TNG, "Cole-Rami" said in one of the two SFU-inspired episodes of TNG, "when one is in a superior position, one is expected to win."

 

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Reply #3 from StarControl Forums Top

I think the Crazy Cyborg Scryve laser should get better at shooting the Earthling Cruiser so there would be a chance that the player would die.

 

I think the ships are already not balanced based on points.  They are balanced based on rock paper scissors.

 

I think the Measured is a good example of rock paper scissors with the Scryve.  Yes the Measured has fewer points but it is a master of close range combat that can also dodge the Scryve laser in its sleep.  Paperwork should have more DPS than flak.

 

Another example of rock paper scissors is I think the Scryve Scout is really easy to self-destruct and kill the Scryve Battlecruiser.

Reply #4 from StarControl Forums Top

I'd like to hear from others regarding the size of the planet.  I too have had some...thoughts about making the planet slightly smaller.

 

 

Reply #5 from StarControl Forums Top

I hope in Adventure Mode we get to fight in the entire solar system.

 

As for Fleet Battles, I don't know how I can judge if the planet is too big or not.

Reply #6 from StarControl Forums Top

What modern gamers call "Rock, Paper, Scissors" is actually just a by product of the class and points system that Star Control used.  You can certainly look to be enhancing that effect, but any ship within the same class is generally going to naturally "Nemesis Balance" itself right into the group as long as its weapons and devices are reasonably balanced for that class (or what that ship is).

Reply #7 from StarControl Forums Top

Planet size is fine - to me it means you need to work on piloting skills to take advantage of gravity maneuvers.

I'm happy with not being able to complete a gravity whip to gain significant momentum as it provides a different game play. Its now about gaining a blindside advantage over your opponent. Quite effective with the Defender and Cruiser.

Reply #8 from StarControl Forums Top

I thought of a way that MIGHT produce a slingshot effect around a large planet. As I keep saying, the momentum/Delta V of the ships has to be within the right range for gravity to “grab” them without being so strong that it is acting as a magnet. Right now you probably have the gravity emanating from the center of the planet. What might work is if the strongest gravity is actually a “band” around the planet about ½ inch away from it. Inside this band, in the ½ inch or so between it and the planet, the gravity is very weak or does not exist at all.

Combined with ships that move within the right velocity range, this might make it so that if you approach at anything close to the right angle this “ring of strongest gravity” around the planet might grab you and fling you around it. Flying directly at the planet, you should still collide with it.  You'll have to experiment with this to see if it actually works, but it seems too me like it should.

 

 

Reply #9 from StarControl Forums Top

Honestly, I don't think the gravity whip of old plays a big role in the arena style of SCO. The whips worked well because the arena wasn't bounded as it is now. And I like that only some ships even have an effective chance at using the planet to create a gentle whip.

Scryve is one of my favourites and with the latest update I know I need to stay away from centre and that's fine because my opponents can use that as an advantage to beat my giant LAZOOOOR.

Reply #10 from StarControl Forums Top

The slingshot allows the slower ships to catch faster ships.  Right now most of the ships go the same speed, if they wind up with a greater difference in speeds the maps with a slingshot at the center are an advantage for slower ships.

Reply #11 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 10

The slingshot allows the slower ships to catch faster ships.  Right now most of the ships go the same speed, if they wind up with a greater difference in speeds the maps with a slingshot at the center are an advantage for slower ships.

 

er. The ships most certainly don’t go the same speed. 

Reply #12 from StarControl Forums Top

They don't go the same speed, but there are no slow ships and most of them move at about the same speed.  There aren't any "big, slow ships" and the general range of speed is fairly high.  This is, for example, why it seems so hard to make a ship seem "fast and agile".  Even the Scryve is fairly fast and agile, so making Measured feel fast and agile like Airilou isn't really possible.  Tywom doesn't feel "agile", and just has a really high turn rate, because its momentum is too high to be "agile".  Delta V, again.  Thrust is the limiting factor of speed.  The speed needs to be low enough for thrust to have a major affect on all but the fastest ships.  

Reply #13 from StarControl Forums Top

My comment re. the planet is that presently it does next to no damage.... we need to see the same SC2 type damaging scaling with larger ships getting pummeled?

Reply #14 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 12

They don't go the same speed, but there are no slow ships and most of them move at about the same speed.  There aren't any "big, slow ships" and the general range of speed is fairly high.  This is, for example, why it seems so hard to make a ship seem "fast and agile".  Even the Scryve is fairly fast and agile, so making Measured feel fast and agile like Airilou isn't really possible.  Tywom doesn't feel "agile", and just has a really high turn rate, because its momentum is too high to be "agile".  Delta V, again.  Thrust is the limiting factor of speed.  The speed needs to be low enough for thrust to have a major affect on all but the fastest ships.  

I do agree with Kavik here. While it's improved in the last few updates, the ships still need to be more diverse in their speed and handling. You have a few different variables to work with here: acceleration, max speed, turning rate, and gravitational mass (plus movement specials). Right now there could be a wider range for each one. SC1/2 had a variety of different configurations: like the Earthling turned quickly but had pitiful acceleration and speed (just an example, not saying Origins' Cruiser needs to be exactly the same), and the Mmrnmhrm had opposite extremes of speed and turn rate in each form.

Reply #15 from StarControl Forums Top

I noticed there is a newer version than the last time I played it.  The gravity is working a lot better now, but still isn't serving its purpose.  The whole point of the slingshot is to give the slower ships a means of catching up too, or escaping from, faster ships.  The planet isn't acting like a magnet anymore, but it is also still not slingshoting you to a high enough speed to be very relevant.  This might just be because there are no slow ships, the slowest is "medium speed" (or "cruiser speed").  I'd have to try it with a slow ship to see how it is actually working, but there are no slow ships.

If it still isn't working well enough, I think I have this worked out now.  As I mentioned in an earlier post you could have the gravity emanate from a band around the planet instead of a singularity at the center of the planet.  If that still doesn't do it, you could then use that to artificially make the slingshot work right by giving that band of gravity around the planet a vector-based "current".  The band would have a current that grabs you and accelerates you, the direction of the current would be based on the angle that you entered the band from.  I am pretty sure that this will work perfectly and achieve the exact effect you are looking for.