Solutions for Screenwrap

Wonderful post!

I had brought this up in the earliest days and mentioned that it is the most complex issue within this genre. You have developed a pretty good understanding of the basic issue, Volusianus.

A big part of the “unresolvable” issue you are delving into is that there is no solution that works for all ships. No matter how you choose to present it, which option you choose, it will still ultimately be about map size. The most important aspect of all of this is the find a good balance between slow ships and fast ships, short range weapons and long range weapons, all on one map.

Fast ships are the single biggest problem, they must be contained without being boxed in. The key phrase is “ability to control the range”. Allow the faster ships the ability to control the range, but box them in enough so that they can not just fly away from the fight. In a 1v1 fight, with no objective to force the ships to fight over a location... “speed is life”. “Speed gives you the initiative.” Exchanges of fire will take place only when and where the faster ship chooses and there is nothing that the slower ship can do about it. This is the actual source and true nature of the issue that you are encountering.

An objective solves this problem. You can't defend something by running away from it, you can't attack something by running away from it. But in 1 v 1 fight where the only objective is combat, fast v slow ships becomes a big problem. In the end, as mentioned earlier, in this specific situation you have to create a “boxing ring”. A map size that allows the the faster ship to use its speed to “control the range” but not “run away”. A slower ship will eventually trap a faster ship in the corner of a square map, for example, or at least run them out of room into a side wall. A map just barely large enough for the faster ship to use its speed, but still small enough for it to quickly run out of room in every direction.

A – The “leash” is even more strange than the wrap around screen, and won't solve the problem. Far enough to be out of range is far enough to be out of range, and the slower ship can never catch the faster ship if the faster ship does not want to be caught. The leash doesn't change this problem, it just uses a leash instead of walls.

B – Disqualification for leaving the map removes the need for “walls” (or a “Tournament Barrier”), but comes with its own problems. You have to make sure a faster ship can't lead a slower ship out of the map, then make it back before the slower ship, forcing them to disqualify themselves. Even if you, as the slower higher firepower ship, have driven them off, they are forced back in or they lose. So they have to come back and give you a close shot... which is what you would have got for catching them against the wall. This provides “a little slack” to the situation, and eliminates “walls” if you don't like the idea of “walls”, but is actually pretty much the same thing as having walls.

C – This ships would be very small if the entire map was shown on the screen at once. This also changes nothing, the map is the size the map is regardless of whether you show it all at the same time or not.

D – I had been assuming that this was how it was going to work. This is, again, a matter of presentation to the player. It doesn't really affect the problem of containing faster ships in a fight where they have no objective by dueling/attrition. The map is still what the map is.

The only solution to this problem is the “boxing ring”, or the “Tournament Barrier” was used in competitive SFB dueling. Whether it is an “energy barrier” that you bounce off of, or “disqualification zone” area outside of the map, in the end it needs to be a “boxing ring”. It needs to box the faster ships in leaving them just enough room to maneuver, to use their speed to control the range without all out running away from the fight. A round area is better than a square one for this purpose.

I should probably add that different map edges are better for different things.  In a fun/casual map, maybe a Capture the Flag thing, a barrier/wall that you bounce off of without penalty, like the side-bumpers of a billiard table, work best.

I personally don't like the "disqualification zone" for a lot of reasons that mostly revolve around how the fast ship can use that in "gamey" ways.  A no-nonsense wall stops all that one way or another.

A 1v1 duel is a unique situation.  The end conclusion of the SFB Sanctioned Tournament System that thrived as an international thing for nearly 30 years might be a good way to go.  The "Tournament Barrier" of the "boxing ring" is a "wall".  If you run into the wall in the SFB Tournament you come to a complete stop.  That extreme isn't necessary in a fast-paced arcade game, but it should slow you down to at least 50% max speed as you bounce off of the wall.  This penalty makes the wall "dangerous" to the faster ship and further shrinks the "boxing ring" on them because they don't want to get too close to the wall/barrier.  This will probably wind up being the best way to deal with this in Star Control because it is a 1v1 duel.

I'm not sure what the problem with screen wrapping exactly is beside it not looking good, the screen wrapping acts just as much a bounding box as any of these solutions.

SC Classic had a camera that zoomed in as ships approached, and as someone who does play the run away forever card my main problem was trying to figure out if I was on a collision course with the planet.

It also made the screen wrapping look good, it literally did a one frame camera reset.

Maybe the problem is something I'm missing, maybe a problem arises when in 3d and non-top down gameplay.

But sc3 did that and, despite the fact you couldn't aim, it still did screen wrapping ok.

As for the Hanna Barbera/Road Runner effect you mentioned, that happens in sc2 as well, if the ships are roughly equal speed and one is running and one is chasing, then you will see this happen, but the only real scenario this happens in is Spathi Eluder v Slylandro Probe where the main strat is to run away forever shooting BUTT missiles at the probe.

In any other fight, the opponent just turns the opposite direction to face you head on, it's less endless background and more two screens.

Most ships can't run away and shoot at the same time, the Spathi Eluder is the best ship in my opinion because it can fire behind itself.

So may I ask what the main problem with screen wrapping is?

Very perceptive, Gavros, there is nothing more powerful than aft firing weapons.  The most powerful ship design has most weapons facing aft, not forward.

There are advantages to the screen wrap, and it is actually the easiest way to address the issue that solves a lot of things on its own.  This makes it a good choice for those who don't really understand the issues involved.  The most obvious example is that with screen wrap there is no such thing as a ship being "too fast", it will simply keep "flying through" the screen.  With walls it would be bouncing around the arena like a ricochet bullet inside of a steal box.  This makes exceptionally high speed actually work against a ship, because it keeps flying by the enemy who gets a chance to shoot at it when it does.  There are a lot of advantages to a wrap around screen.

The best solution for a 1v1 duel, though, on a lot of different levels, is a barrier/wall that significantly slows a ship that bounces off it as a penalty.  This keeps the faster ship contained and forced to fight, makes the barrier feel "dangerous" too them so they don't even want to get too close too it, and actually slows them down when they do hit it to allow the slower ship to catch them for an attack.  If they were riding the wall so close that they bumped into it, the slower ship must be close and pinning them up against it... so they get an attack in if the faster ship bumps the wall.  A round map balances this from the other direction, eliminating corners that the slower ship can completely trap the runner in and most likely kill them.

If a faster ship tries to endlessly run on a round tournament barrier map, that will quickly evolve into it being endlessly pinned against the barrier with the slower ship endlessly cutting it off from the inside to keep it there.  This solves the problem through the fact that there are better plans than this for the faster ship, and it gets to decide on the general nature of the fight ("speed gives you the initiative").  So the player in the faster ship will decide that what we call the "Kaufman Retrograde" is not the best tactic to use in this situation, it doesn't have enough room to run.  So they will fight the enemy, instead of endlessly retrograding for the huge advantage that gives you if you have endless space to work with and the speed to do it.  The Tournament Barrier/Boxing Ring make the player in the faster ship decide not to fight that way, because there are better ways than being endlessly pinned against the barrier wall.

On 10/20/17 I will lose internet again for 2 or 4 weeks, apparently it can take up to a month to have internet installed in a new house when you are 30 miles from the nearest tiny town.  So I will be offline for about a month again, but when I come back I will have internet permanently again and be able to play Super Melee. 

I am almost finished with design document for an indie game version of Space Hockey, when I get back online I'm going to start trying to put together an indie group to make Space Hockey as an indie game.  I'll put the Space Hockey doc on my GameDev.Net blog for anyone who wants to see it, and of course if anyone is interested in becoming involved with this I'll be looking for aspiring indie devs to help bring Space Hockey to life... people who also love Star Control and know this type of game would obviously be a plus so I thought I'd mention that here.  Of course, even though I'll never have this for an indie game... Space Hockey still has to have its theme song!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Dsoe7XwP4

How about this idea: A circular fight barrier around the outside of the system that works like a gradual negative gravity field. As you get closer to it you slow down gradually and eventually repels you back toward the middle if you go too far in, so that it's not an immediate stop/bounce situation. You could kind of skim into it slightly if you wanted to slow down for a tight turn, for instance. 

Also, IMO Orz was best for tailgunning

The reason a simple wall works best is that it can handle any type of weapon or device in a good way.  A disqualification zone, for example, doesn't work with all types of weapons or systems.  A "Repel" from Subspace, a gravity wave that flings things away from the ship, could be used to knock a player out of bounds and out of the game.  Or a tractor beam could hold them over the line.  A solid, no question about where the line is, barrier is easy to make work with everything.  So it doesn't limit the weapons and ship systems that can be present in the game.

Also, the key issue always remains keeping faster ships trapped into the fight.  The main idea, in a 1v1 duel, is to keep a fast ship pinned between the "dangerous" barrier wall and the enemy if the fast ship just tries to endlessly run away.  When you find the right map size, this boxes them in and forces them to be aggressive which is a better plan for them than being pinned against the barrier all the time.

But no one would ever go running away endlessly, that's a stalemate situation, I think this might be the reason Thraddash is banned though.

I mainly run hit and run, which involves constantly switching between moving in for the attack and staying out of dodge.

The best ships for that are the Eluder, Fury, stinger, and possibly Nemesis. I won't put the Torch here because it generally isn't all that great, just drags things out really.

Screen wrapping definitely helps with that, working in a walled off area may cause some trouble.

Keep in mind that this is something Brad has said is non-negotiable. Ie we won't convince him that screenwrap should stay, so it's probably better to put more effort into discussing other solutions.

The map size/edge issue is one that will never have a final, definitive answer. The scenario matters, the ship design matters. There are different “best solutions” depending on the ships and the situation. A “penalty barrier” in a claustrophobic “boxing ring” size map is ultimately the best solution for 1v1 dueling for a lot of reasons I've already mentioned. Another reason that is specifically relevant to Star Control is that the “boxing ring” allows for the widest variety of ship design to function within it. A great example is the Druuge from SC2.

The Druuge could get going super-fast firing its main gun, the idea was that you would build up to that speed (making you a hard target as you flew by on each pass) and if you could master firing the gun backwards at them as you blew by then you would be good with that ship. The Druuge won't work in the “boxing ring”, obviously. Its design relied on the screen wrap, that's how it worked. It took away the massive speed advantage, turning into a negative, and you were quickly brought back to the enemy for them to take another shot at you. This is not the only ship in Star Control where the design relied on the screen wrap, just the most obvious one.

The design of the ships and the design of the map go together. You can achieve the best balance by designing them together, as one unified thing. But with a “design your own ship” editor, you'll want the map to support the widest range of ships, weapons, and devices as possible. So, for 1v1 dueling anyway, some kind of “boxing ring” (whatever “edge” you decide to use) is the best way of doing that. Simply creating a “containment area” that allows slower ships to “own the center” as a means of countering a large speed advantage works for the widest range of potential ship designs. The ship design is always influenced by the map, because no one map solution works for all ships or all situations.

The problem is made even more difficult in Star Control because it tries to represent anything and everything so there is a wider range of speed difference than in a lot of other games like this. In most games a tiny, really fast and agile little ship doesn't take on a big slow “battleship” in a one-on-one fight. In an arcade environment like Star Control this happens and the sometimes huge difference in speed between opponents makes the problem even worse. So containing faster ships in a good way becomes even more important because it happens so often. There is no one answer that you are looking for, there are different answers for different scenarios/games and different groups of ships/weapons. And the ships ultimately have to be designed for the map.

As a last example... in the “boxing ring” that I have been describing a medium-sized moderate-speed ship, with a medium-long range weapon, will be lethal to faster ships if they wind up stuck hugging the wall. This situation is an extreme illustration how the faster ships are forced to decide that there is a better plan than hugging the barrier while being shot at. A ship of this design will be particularly powerful against fast ships on the “penalty barrier” version of a 1v1 dueling map. A “plasma torpedo” can also be a very powerful weapon in an enclosed area like this. Map design and ship/weapon design always go together.

You aren't looking for THE answer, because that doesn't exist. You are looking for your answer.

Seems like a "plasma torpedo" hit this thread............................

I just thought of a potential problem with the boxing ring.

Where do you put the planet?

In the center or offset, either way, it will affect a large ship by being an obstacle, or a speed boost, but mostly just a lethal problem that's in the way.

You can't gravity whip to someone directly behind the planet.

I don't like the boxing ring just because I feel like that makes it feel too gamey and arbitrary. The player has to be convinced it's not a game. I think Brad was still wanting to experiment with multiple planetary bodies? (unless that got nixed).

Invisible walls as the best solution?  You must be joking.  If that's the way things are going SD may as well offer me a refund right now.  Terrible. 

I would love to see adventure SM be played out in an entire solar system, dodging between multiple planets and avoid burning up in the sun.

I'd like to see a mix B and D with a mini-map and no manual zoom control. Best effort is used to keep both ships on main view port at all times, but may slip off at long range. No attempt is made to keep summoned ships on screen, but all are visible in the mini-map. Allows for the fun of a restricted arena as well as keeping informed of opponent location.

As for consequences at the arena, possible options not mentioned above:

• Significant slow down of ship - sitting duck for opponent
• Take damage - longer exposure means death

Has anyone played PLAYERUNKNOWN'S Battleground or some of the other battle royal games? They employ the ever shrinking arena mechanic quite well. It could be a fun dynamic in the SM gameplay, but I would be wary of the copycat feel of it.

As for local mulitplayer - split screen for those still back in the dark ages with one monitor, or throw it on to a second screen.

A planet, gravity source, or other astronomical object can be at the center of the map, just like in Space Wars.

I had brought this up as pretty much the first point I ever brought up in these forums because it is such an all-encompassing massive issue within this genre.  It's not a design choice, it is the physics of the combat environment.  One way or another, faster ships must be contained.  The way that plays out the best, and feels the best to the players, is to turn the situation around with a boxing ring that is just the right size.  If it is just the right size the fast ships feel as though they have enough room to maneuver and control the range, the slow ships feel as though they "own the center" and will eventually win if the faster enemy just wants to spend the entire game running ("retrograding").

It can be made to work on an endless open map.  My own Pirate Dawn does this.  But to do that, you have to give up a lot of other things that I don't think Stardock wants to give up.  Ship speeds must be within a certain range, not the huge variance you see in Star Control.  All ships must have the right balance of forward and aft firing weapons.  All weapons, systems, and terrain in the game has to be something that works in this environment, or re-designed to work on an open map, but some types cannot be in the game if there is going to be an open map.  You certainly couldn't have a ship editor with an open map, at least not a free and open one where you can make anything you want.  Everything about the ships, weapons, and systems has to be designed for pursuit combat if you want an open map... it is very restrictive and eliminates a lot of things from consideration.

In a 1v1 duel, even in my game the dueling zone would have had a tournament barrier.  Even a slight speed difference allows a ship to retrograde and an endless chase in a fight you can't win isn't any fun.  Containing a 1v1 duel really isn't optional, it can't be made to work in a fun way in any other way.  How you contain it is the only issue, because you will never make a 1v1 duel work in a good way on an open map unless all the ships have the same exact top speed.

EDIT: I had been forgetting about SC's energy meter.  When a ship hits the tournament barrier it should lose about half of its energy in addition to about half of its speed, but not cause any actual damage.  The enemy ship will cause the damage... now that it has its chance to catch it and hit it with something.

As mentioned above invisible walls make things very video gamey.

That doesn't mean you can't use them, it just means you need to seriously explain in universe to your characters why it's there and explain to the player why this invisible wall is necessary.

It's not even that invisible walls are video gamey..it's that they are lazy/poorly developed video gamey.  At least draw a wall there you lazy bastards.

The root of the problem here is what SFB players call the “Kaufman Retrograde”. Kenneth Kaufman's (“Zzzzzz...” It's a 30-year-old joke) original Kaufman Retrograde scenario demonstrated how five Federation Heavy Cruisers flying backwards could not be defeated by an equal pursuing force. And the Federation is the one of the worst at doing this among the races of the SFU! Seeking weapons are even more powerful in this situation.

In a 1v1 duel there is no objective other than destroying the enemy ship. The retrograde is, as a general rule of thumb, a 3-1 advantage. So in a duel, the faster ship will always decide to retrograde if it can. You almost can't beat it if it does. The only way a duel can work between ships of different speeds is to contain the faster ship and limit its ability to retrograde. Otherwise the fight will be a long and boring endless chase that the slower ship almost always loses. It's no fun, and the slower ship is generally doomed.

When the only objective is to stay alive yourself and destroy the other ship, and you are faster, it is only a matter of time before the slower ship loses. The faster ship needs to have this option removed from it. Allowed to use its speed to run rings around a slower ship, but not to endlessly run away from it. Then, turning it into a “fun game”, finding just the right size where the slower ship “owns the center” turns it into a fun game. Both sides “have their own domain”. The slower ship “owns the center” and the faster ship “has the initiative”. This is what makes a duel work in a fun way between ships of different speeds.

...and I definitely think the barrier should be visible.

I forgot about it too. That works better in my opinion.

At this point I'm not worried about walls, I'm worried about invisible walls.

An invisible wall is cheap, it's lazy game design, go see Zero Punctuation to see someone who thinks that if we can see it, we should be able to go there at some point.

Be creative, make it a pulsating blue energy barrier, or a superdense asteroid belt, or an event horizon, or something.

This isn't a tournament. It's a battle through the stars, where there are no barriers, to the death, for the right to live in this galaxy.

I think this was touched on before, but...

Perhaps "Slash Arena" style battles could work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf05c1XrL5A

After reading through dozens of posts here and on Discord, it seems the underlying issue "wrapping" tried to solve or handle is the containment of the faster ship.  With MAP WRAP off the table (which doesn't effectively handle the issue anyhow) and LEASHING (which might as well be the same thing) clearly not a popular idea, a fixed arena is the only logical option left. 

Using Slash Arena as an example, the battle area is fixed, which provides the faster ship only so much room to maneuver (learn how to pilot your ship instead of retrograding).  The camera is always centered on the player's ship, and only lets the player see a portion of the battlefield around the ship.  Include a mini-map (as it was previously mentioned) of the whole arena, or a radar, or as in SPAZ 1 indicator arrows that show direction and distance relative to the player's ship. 

Arena boundaries should be soft and slow down any ship that enters that area (nobody wants to experience a ping-pong effect when fighting for their lives).  Indicate this area with a colored haze (maybe there's a storm nebula surrounding the ships, preventing escape). 

Of course arena size will need testing, but this concept

A)  Contains the faster ship (which is the issue at hand)

  Provides just enough obscurity to allow each ship to capitalize on its strengths or take advantage of the other's weaknesses

C)  Provides an effective method for bringing MP battles to the SC Multiverse

I hope I'm not just talking out my arse and have added something at least a little worthwhile to this discussion.

^ pretty much what I envision in the end. Can also add shrinking arena border option when faster ships become available.

No wrapping, no bouncing, no leashing. Just a "soft" border that drains energy, (maybe damages ship later in battle) and slows it down.

That's what I've envisioned as well.  It's how Subspace worked, which I played a lot of, and a lot of other top down space shooters have worked that way as well.  Any Subspace player can tell you that, since the radar is just an extension of your "visual range" off-screen, you have such good situational awareness that hitting moving ships on radar was easy in that game with either prox torpedoes or even just streams of bullets.  Hitting things on radar adds another dimension to the combat, and it feels really good when you do it.

Star Control has a much wider range of weapon/device abilities, but very few per ship.  Just one weapon and one device/secondary ability.  So only some ships in Star Control would be able to take advantage of hitting off-screen.

One thing Star Control has going for it in making it easy to balance in the end is that damage is permanent.  Ships get worn down over time as long as you can keep hitting them.  This all becomes much more complex when they repair themselves, and regenerating shields make it even worse and really not as fun in the end.  There are a lot of negatives associated with fast regenerating shields, not having them is one of the things that makes Star Control different than most other games like it.