July Update Feedback

Hooray for the Founder's Update!

Let's get started on the feedback:

  • You are correct, sir, in that the Super Melee is THE flashiest, most front-and-center part of the game. The one everyone will look at and judge immediately upon viewing, on whether this game is for them. Interest in the nuanced story comes after that, but there's no doubt FIRST impressions will be based on the Super Melee. Even myself - I owned Star Control II for 6 months before even touching the main campaign. Part of that was because I was 10, and 10yo's are dumb. But part of that was me playing with my buddy, head-to-head, this really, really fun dog-fighting 1-on-1 spaceship fighting game. Interest in a deep, nuanced story does come second to the casual observer, so a lot of pressure is very much on the Super Melee. It's gotta be just right, and we're well on the way toward making it so. I think one way to make it more attractive and awe-inspiring from the get-go is to REALLY step up the look of the background stars. Right now, there's some light clouding, and some stars - just look at the background of the page we're on right now. I feel like current space games are beyond this. For example, the recent Everspace:

Another example, Galaxy on Fire 2:

A third example is Eve Valkyrie:

They all seem to put heavy emphasis on cool space backdrops to really catch the eye. It works. I mean, it really works, big-time. I'm sure this is probably more a post-production issue, but I wanted to mention it now, since such emphasis is being put on making Super Melee attractive to the widest swathe of people imaginable. I think players may balk at such a simple space backdrop. 

Another way to improve gameplay and make it more varied would be including a ton of obstacles during the match. Discussed on Discord, I especially thought a good example would be the previous space ships that have been blown up during a match, could make for some very cool obstacles to avoid ramming into during subsequent battles at the same location. If Nitrous can support literally thousands of ships, I want to see the dead hulks of exploded ships that you've already fought. How cool would it be to have an enemy destroy one of your ships, only to be fleeced by its remnants on the next round, like it reached out from the grave for revenge? Fun stuff!!

  • Moving on to the next point - it APPEARS that Trandals and Menk-Mack are getting a makeover!!! To that, all I can say is - HALLELUJAH. What a wonderful day. Because out of all the races, these two were the ones I took the most issue with. There are a few more critiques I'd like to make known as well, so I'll just list the small amount of grievances I have, with each of the races here:
    • Trandals - an iphone with a cord? This is too meta. There's almost a zero percent chance that they would create the same exact handheld, with an earphone jack dozens of lightyears away from us, evolved completely separately. I'd like you guys to take this as dark as the concept states. I want to see it hardwired into their brains. Bolted into their skull with pegs hammered in at birth. I want them to be neutering the trandal race in a foul, but polite way. I want their dominion over trandals to be complete. I want a screen welded onto their face. Take it further, make it repulsive, but in a nice, polite way to fit their friendly personality, and to fit the dark comedy vein of SCII.
    • Menk-Mack - Please just destroy this thing that's straight out of a Saturday Morning cartoon on Sprout. I feel like there should be an overly happy human on the couch next to this Menk-Mack, discussing how to best tie your shoes as a toddler. I feel like they should pull out a guitar and sing a duet together, about the need to take baths and how fun they can be, bopping along with the music and swinging their feet. It just... it needs to go. 
    • Tywom - They're, again, too human caricature. In Star Control II, aside from one visible cigar - there's not a single HUMAN object in those scenes. The Tywom have 7-11 sodas (with a straw!) and pocket protectors. Look at the Umgah! Their little non-hands squeeze fleshy bulbs to control their ships! The Spathi control by pulling on some sort of hooks! The Orz control their ships by tapping on... some sort of drum with a bright yellow circular organic-screen. Lose the human! Really REACH out there!!
    • The Measured - Librarians, the galaxy's finest compilers of information.......................... complete with the Dewey Decimal system and step ladders? We're really going that direction? Come on. Also, their mustache looks weird and not at all intimidating. Maybe that's the point, I guess... 
    • Greegrox - Omg, so happy. I guess that's fine if you like Pixar, a lot.

The Mu'kay nail it. You guys got so creative with them, I really want to see all of them taken to that level. Scryve too, with the floating things. Can't really see much of the other race's bridge. But....... Go big. Go alien. I mean it. Please.

  • The Flagship design... it looks pretty crowded, guys. Like, almost too much in the two photos of it this month. I've never thought that before, but this looks a little much. Not a big thing, I just can't, for the life of me, figure out what's even going on. And you certainly won't be able to tell when you're flying it in top-down view.
  • And finally, a quote from this month's vault update: "you can expect there to be a lot more classes of ships for each race". Just a question... what's this all about?!

Let's hear what everyone else thinks of this update!!

27,888 views 30 replies
Reply #1 Top

Just a few points here:

  • I want to know more about the Greegrox before I judge them.
  • I feel like the Measured are fine for the most part.
  • I agree that we need to shift away from SOME human caricature, but There was a lot more in classic SC than you might be remembering. Maybe it wasn't so overt, but in dialogue there were certainly things mentioned that...didn't seem so alien.
  • I don't like the current Menk-Mank, but I don't know enough about them to know what I WOULD like about them.
Reply #2 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 1


    • I don't like the current Menk-Mank, but I don't know enough about them to know what I WOULD like about them.

The ears. Gotta be the ears.

Reply #3 Top

The human caricature that I remember from SC2 was mostly from the Arilou and the Pkunk. The Arilou because of their unique connection to Humans and the Pkunk because they could read human minds/psychich etc. Other than that, most of the alien species were pretty damn alien-like. Mycon, Druuge, Chmmr, etc. Utwig, Yehat, and Thraddash were probably the most humanlike in their personalities, but they still had pretty strong alien characteristics. 

I can't comment on the current aliens in game though as I'm not privy to any alpha builds of the game o_0

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Xiaorai, reply 3

I'm not privy to any alpha builds of the game

Even those of us with keys only have Super Melee access, not the actual game itself (yet).

Reply #5 Top

Cuorebrave,

What they mean by different classes is different size ships of the same race.  So, for example, the Mukay might have three different ships in the game.  A big slow one like an Ur Quan Dreadnought, a medium one like the Vux or Yehat, and a small one like a Suphuxti.  They will all have the same type of technology, and look, etc.  But type of technology is a theme, not necessarily the same weapon and device on all three ships.  

And the Mukay just jumped off the screen at me in the new update.  I like the design of that ship a lot.

 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 5

What they mean by different classes is different size ships of the same race.

AFAIK the game is going to ship with only one ship per race. I think Brad means that eventually the community would allow multiple ships per race to exist. But I don't think they are doing more than the current roster of ships.

Reply #7 Top

We intend for the game to include multiple ships per race but only 1 in super Melee. In super melee you will be able to add your own ships with ships made by others and play online with others with them (ranked mp will be limited to official ships only).

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Reply #8 Top

I really like the idea of multiple ships per race. It should really add a lot more depth to combat and engaging gameplay.

So Brad will that also flow into the Human ship set? As per a number of peoples' thoughts here, I'm theorizing that the Human ship set starts off with a pea shooter and eventually we develop better weaponry.

Reply #9 Top

I think this is a huge deal, it was the highlight of this month's update too me.  Having at least three classes of ships for each of the major races is just such a huge deal in so many ways.  It's going to make the game feel much bigger, more realistic, and have a lot more variety.  It's a "force multiplier" effect on the content an, an illusion that is far more than the sum of it's parts.  It really is a big deal.  I love it!

 

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Reply #10 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 7

We intend for the game to include multiple ships per race but only 1 in super Melee. In super melee you will be able to add your own ships with ships made by others and play online with others with them (ranked mp will be limited to official ships only).

This is all great news! thanks 

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 7

We intend for the game to include multiple ships per race but only 1 in super Melee. In super melee you will be able to add your own ships with ships made by others and play online with others with them (ranked mp will be limited to official ships only).

If you're going to make (say) 3 ships per race, then you've already constructed them in-game anyway, so why wouldn't you make them available for people to play with in super melee? I don't understand...?

Arguably, you mean that they'll be too powerful or too weak to bother with in SM, so people shouldn't be able to use them in ranked online matches or whatever, but surely they'll actually be in there and we can play with them. I guess I just don't understand why you *wouldn't* do that...?

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Reply #12 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 11


Quoting Frogboy,

We intend for the game to include multiple ships per race but only 1 in super Melee. In super melee you will be able to add your own ships with ships made by others and play online with others with them (ranked mp will be limited to official ships only).



If you're going to make (say) 3 ships per race, then you've already constructed them in-game anyway, so why wouldn't you make them available for people to play with in super melee? I don't understand...?

Arguably, you mean that they'll be too powerful or too weak to bother with in SM, so people shouldn't be able to use them in ranked online matches or whatever, but surely they'll actually be in there and we can play with them. I guess I just don't understand why you *wouldn't* do that...?

Yes, should be able to balance them out with point-value, correct?

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 7

We intend for the game to include multiple ships per race but only 1 in super Melee. In super melee you will be able to add your own ships with ships made by others and play online with others with them (ranked mp will be limited to official ships only).

This _IS_ big news, Mr. Frogboy. I remember talking about this in the very beginning, and while at the time, my reasoning was - instead of having multiple ships for each race, why not just have more races? But this was before I was carrying the heavy burden of "scope-creep" at the forefront of my mind. Adding a race would be enormous scope-creep at this point, I'm sure.

That being said... what's the point of the multiple-ship per race thing? To show progression, and how well each race is thriving? To keep the player working toward unlocking better ships by helping each race?

Can you help us understand the motivations behind their inclusion? Let us know, we're an inquisitive bunch. And I mean that both in the sense that we like to ask question, AND we're like the damn Spanish Inquisition sometimes ;)

Reply #14 Top

I have no idea how it is being used.  It can be used for progression, but the basic idea is that the races each have entire "fleets" of ships and not just one kind of ship like in Star Control.  Like a Battleship, Cruiser, and Destroyer.  It can be used, really, any way that you might be able to imagine using it.  Maybe you get destroyers early in the game, cruisers later... and the battleships are "special" that exist in various ways but your mothership can't carry those.

Reply #15 Top

I have the feeling that there will be lore significance, but unless I hear otherwise from Brad, I'm going to assume that the only mechanical difference will be crew amounts and ship handling. IE battleships having 1.5 - 2x crew, but being slower, corvettes and frigates having less crew, but being faster, etc etc.

Reply #16 Top

You could do it that way, but then they will all seem like pretty much the same ship just with different speed, maneuverability and health.  They would also run into a problem with weapons and systems.  For example, a big slow ship that can barely turn is going to be pretty useless with the weak weapon of a fast and agile ship.  Usually each species would have a theme too it.  So the DaNoth (close enough:-) has a theme of gravitic technology, so all of the ships of it's class would have weapons and systems that fit with that theme and have a similar look that makes it feel as though they were all built by the same people.

And your class are more accurate then the example I had been giving.  I wanted to use classes everyone recognizes.  Fast Patrol Ship (ie "gun boat"), Corvette, and Frigate match with the mothership concept a lot better than DD, CA, and BB.

Reply #17 Top

I can see the ship size options a nice way to enhance the flagship 'carrier' build. If we needed to fit ship modules for fleet capacity, it could be interesting to provide upgrades to allow larger vessels within the fleet and not be limited to the smaller variants. Having more vessel combinations and options should give a lot more replay value.

 

Reply #18 Top

How is this not incredibly scope-creep?!

Reply #19 Top

Never said it wasn't. Just throwing out thoughts and ideas. After all, this is a place for us to provide feedback.

If ideas start a productive discussion and thought process on whether it is a mechanic that works in the game, then great. If the ideas manage to influence the game (or future expansions) it would be even better.

Reply #20 Top

@inferno - I wasn't talking about you - I was referring to the addition of multiple ships per race, from Brad's vault update this month, lol - oops.

Reply #21 Top

I would think that the danger of "scope creep" is doing a lot of work for little real gain.  This is the opposite of that, this is a force multiplier in many ways.  It greatly increases the variety of ships in the game and it greatly enhances the immersion of the player.  The universe seems incomplete if every species only has one kind of ship.  And it is not a ton of work because you are just adding two thematically similar ships for each ship that already exists.  Many of the weapons and devices are likely to be either weaker, or more powerful, versions of the "base ship" (the one that already exists).  So in many cases the animation and effect already exists to be made weaker or stronger in some way for the other two ships.  So, for example, a gravtic torpedo on a medium base ship might lose its gravtic effect on the smaller model and increase its damage on the larger model.  So in most cases there is no need to create new things in order to do this.  It is actually a whole lot of bang for the manpower buck that goes into it.

 

Reply #22 Top

@cuorebrave - is all good - too easy for misinterpretation here - my bad too!

I've been thinking a little more about the 3 tier ships and wondering if it is partly to balance against using the 'mothership of death' builds in the campaign. It could be forcing (at least some) campaign combats to favour smaller and faster ships than big, slow sitting ducks. Will have to wait and see how it all works.

It could be a lot of fun to come up against a Scyrvve Planet Buster...

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 21

I would think that the danger of "scope creep" is doing a lot of work for little real gain.  This is the opposite of that, this is a force multiplier in many ways.  It greatly increases the variety of ships in the game and it greatly enhances the immersion of the player.  The universe seems incomplete if every species only has one kind of ship.  And it is not a ton of work because you are just adding two thematically similar ships for each ship that already exists.  Many of the weapons and devices are likely to be either weaker, or more powerful, versions of the "base ship" (the one that already exists).  So in many cases the animation and effect already exists to be made weaker or stronger in some way for the other two ships.  So, for example, a gravtic torpedo on a medium base ship might lose its gravtic effect on the smaller model and increase its damage on the larger model.  So in most cases there is no need to create new things in order to do this.  It is actually a whole lot of bang for the manpower buck that goes into it.

 

Completely balancing 45 ships as opposed to 15? I'd prefer 15 incredible, well-balanced ships than what it would take to make 45 hopefully-not-too-unbalanced ones.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 23

Completely balancing 45 ships as opposed to 15? I'd prefer 15 incredible, well-balanced ships than what it would take to make 45 hopefully-not-too-unbalanced ones.

 

The other classes of ships won't appear in ranked play, so they don't have to be balanced at all.

Reply #25 Top

I'd like to know something about player ship design.  When we get to design our own ships, will there be more primary and secondary attacks to choose from, or can we only choose from the attacks of the super melee races in Origins?

As a possible follow up question, will we be able to design our own attacks in-game or through modding?