The State of SuperMelee - An Open Discussion

Clearing the message flag - ignore.

1) Willing to give it a shot, but I like the idea of top-down better.

2) I like a clear view of things.  Off to the side or to the top. 

3) I wrote something rather long about this the other day.

Could you tell in the screenshot from the update that it wasn't top down?

Gave me an idea for a new question... Updating top post...

I read the monthly update zoomed all the way out.  It looked pretty top down, but I just took another look zoomed in to normal levels.  From the screens there it look like it's 87 degrees.  Feel is a big part of it, you have that experience, I dont.  I'll get it eventually

It was so close to 90 that you have trouble telling. (I had to have it pointed out to me, too!) The giveaway is the thrusters on the human ship. The ones on the right are slightly shorter than the ones on the left. (Left/Right are relative to the ship, not the screen.)

I think that there is an angle that SCO can use that gives you both the beauty of an isometric view and the functionality of the top-down view.

The issue with an isometric view, is it gives a slight advantage if your opponent is "above you" on screen, and a slight disadvantage if they are "below you" on the screen, because the slight angling of the view extends vision in that direction.

Also, there's the whole nostalgia thing for me since SC1 and SC2 were top-down, but of course this game isn't being designed just with old farts like me in mind who were even alive 25 years ago to play the originals, so that shouldn't necessarily be a consideration.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the relevancy of the location of the bars, given the new aspect ratios. I'm not sure where else you would put them. In fact, in this day and age of wider monitors, the sides are the only place to put them without compromising space. I don't like the solid bars (I like the little squares) but it looks from the update like Brad has already identified that for possible change.

There are obviously going to be ship/weapon types missing, since there's a far smaller number of ships in the initial release than SC2 had. That'll improve over time, I imagine (potentially very quickly, if the modding tools are good enough).

I'm willing to try any form of camera that is given to me. I could tell something was off in the screenshot, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I knew it wasn't quite top-down, but it wasn't isometric either.

One of the things that I love about modern OSes is the ability to move your taskbar anywhere you want on the screen. I don't know how hopeful we should be for a fully configurable UI, but if it has to be on screen, I feel like having one player on the upper left and one in the lower right would actually be easier to deal with. I feel it would present interesting moments during local multiplayer.

The things that are missing are primarily non-weapons, from what I can tell. There's a few, and the ones that they have are good, but we need more things like the Pkunk regeneration, Supox lateral controls, and (I know it's technically a weapon) the Thraddash Torch's GLORIOUS AFTERBURNER.

1) I dont think different angle will be better if you can't manually scroll the screen. If you viewing from an angle there would be advantageous side to fight and both players would pursue it. The other solution would be to have the screen rotate with the ship, having you always facing north - but this would change the whole Super Melee feel we had from SC2.

2) Would have to experience it to say but if we are always in the middle it would be best to keep the gameplay part of the screen as square as possible (thus keeping them on the side is best option)

3) Can't comment unless I try the ships in action

In SC2 the Energy text below the bar would flash - hinting that you don't have enough to fire a missle. I guess this would be the best option here as well.

While true, that "advantage" is miniscule the closer you get to 90. It's so small, you automatically compensate.

What are you focusing on when you play? Are you focused on the ships fighting? Can you watch the ships AND the bars? How far out would the bars have to go before you could no longer pay attention to them? I think 16:9 widescreen monitors are at this crossover point.

(Do you play MMOs, Brian? One of the most helpful tips is to put your health/mana/casting-bar right near the center of your screen. It is the same concept.)

If I could wave my magic wand, we'd have health and energy rings around each ships that kept track of health and energy. Problem solved. (Plus, it would solve the problem of knowing which ship is yours.)

What if we surround the ship in your meters, but only when relevant or when a specific key is pressed? I know this is totally unnecessary and silly, but have a Quip Key that causes your captain's portrait to pop up and make a quip on the current status of the battle, and then the AI (or other player) can quip in response? Serves absolutely no mechanical purpose, but would give us an option to have the portraits still.

Or pressed to toggle.

And we were talking in Skype about the ship meters surrounding the ship. This is an example of the type of GUI we mean.

I already know how the angled view doesn't work.  It makes it a completely different game.  This is exactly the reason I have never played SC3.  I never even tried SC3 because it showed that distorted view angle on the box, letting you know "you don't want this, it doesn't actually work".  I actually won't ever even try SCO if it can't be put into top down, it's not a game worth playing if the view (and the action itself) is distorted like that.   If other people want to disadvantage themselves to the point of having almost no chance at all of winning I don't care, but if it can't be viewed clearly there is no reason to play it.  If you have to compensate for the distorted view in your mind, that destroys almost everything about what makes these games good.

As for the energy and health bars... I have no problem tracking that from corner displays, in fact I like having that info and radar in the corners, but have nothing against this being displayed in a "more modern" way (graphics around the ship, for example). But what is bad about this is that they will get in the way in a top down game if they are big like in the pic you posted.  2 rings, or half-rings, close around the ship would be better in SC that big meters off to the sides that will get in the way and block your view of the action at times.

Classic Kavik being Kavik.

You should give the angle a chance before you totally write it off. We aren't talking about the awful angle that SC3 had. It is much more subtle.

I already know how it works.  I have a literally a lifetime of experience with this specific subject.  I have already tried it and fully understand the issue.  It's like how certain you are that you will die without air.  3D Isometric space combat is not a thing, it is just an amateurish mistake.  Star Trek online and Eve are both ruined by the same thing.  There are ways of doing it other than top down, but the distorted angled "isometric" view simply does not work for this type of combat.  At least I know I am not missing anything since I wouldn't be playing it yet anyway.  Until it can be put into top down Stardock can save a key on me because I wouldn't have any interest in playing it anyway.  If I wanted to play a broken angled view game I could have been playing Eve and Star Trek Online for all these years and I wouldn't be lacking my favorite game on computer since the demise of Subspace.

As long as it is locked into a broken view, I don't need a key.  I won't have any interest at all in playing another Eve or Star Trek Online so I don't even need a access too it if it is as broken and worthless too me as Eve and STO.

Was it 40 years of experience, with the past 8 not counting?

What game had an 85° view angle that you tried?

I was in the "90° or nothing" crowd until I tried a game with it. Now, I see the light. I won't go much past 85°, though.

It's not locked. True Top-Down is available. But even IT is still in perspective projection and not parallel which might feel a bit weird for a sec.

Kavik, this is the Voice of Reason, here. You'll be pleasantly surprised. I didn't actually realize it wasn't top-down, it's so close. Just felt like True Star Control to me.

Nobody - why do you think the crew bars feel so far off to the right? Don't get me wrong, I agree, I NEVER knew what my battery was, or if I was going to die... BUT - SCII was the same exact way, and I constantly knew where I was at. Why does this feel further on a screen that's stayed the same?

Also, I'm not super excited about flying elliptical bars that coast along with my ship. Would moving it to the left side help?

This is exactly correct.

Because it physically IS farther to the right. We used to play on 17" 4:3 monitors. Now we play on 21" (or more) 16:9 monitors. The combination between the aspect ratios and the screen sizes means that the bars are waaaaay off to the side now.

Still too far.

I was proposing a hotkey to toggle them on/off for a quick check. Think of it as holding ALT in Diablo.

Sometimes, you need to know how much health you had left. Do you launch your GoGos or Fighters?

As an EVE player..what's broken about the view?  Also going to point out that the camera drone can be moved.

This is an example of what I would surround each ship with.

• The colors would be changed to green and red. (Enemy colors would be different.)
• The transparency would be increased.
• The number of bars would shrink or grow based on max crew and energy.
• The bars could either be in a fixed orientation around your ship or they could rotate with your ship.
• The bars could be toggled on/off with a hotkey.
• The bars could fade in/out as the distance between ships decreases. (That way, they aren't in the way when you are doing close quarter melee combat.)

As someone who played Ur Quan masters on 16:9 screen, there is nothing wrong with ship info being on the side. It is still well in the field of view.

Quoting IBNobody, reply 21

This is an example of what I would surround each ship with.

I hate to say, I really hate this (sorry IB).

I want to view the ships fighting without having all this info around them. I can flick my eyes to the side of the screen quickly to gauge my crew and energy reserves when I want to, and the other 98% of the time I just want to be looking at glorious ships and planets and space.

Just my 2c.

This isn't UQM though, and the game scale is different. (I just compared them.) UQM plays in 1024x768, and even in full screen it scales the battlefield to be roughly square. SCO has a very rectangular battlefield. Also, compare the sizes of the GUI elements. The end result is that the SCO setup is different enough that it makes stat glances difficult. 

This is the beauty of the AND. You can have this AND the traditional stuff way off to the right. Don't want to see part of the HUD? Turn it off or toggle it.

1. Do you still feel that you have to be completely top-down to enjoy SuperMelee, or would an 80-85 degree angle be sufficient? (If unsure, would you be willing to give it a shot?)

I'd be willing to give it a shot -- As long as it doesn't impair play, I think it'll be fine.

2. Do you feel that having crew and energy bars on the right side of the screen is relevant in a world of 16:9 or 21:9 monitors? (We know the green bar is getting fixed.) If not, where do you think they should go?

Translucent circle around ship?

3. Look at the SCO ship ability list previously published. Now look at the SC2 list of ships. What types of ship abilities do you feel are missing in SCO? What ships in SC2 were essential to making SC2 SuperMelee feel special/fun?