Savage

Call me a pessimist, but I don't believe adding more abilities to ships will solve this. Griefing will always find a way.

The idea of a timer mechanic of some sort will at least limit the duration of an unpleasant battle. I'd rather spend 2 minutes fighting aagainst a griefer then spend 10 or 5.

Hahaha, IBN, you know how you're always saying "Please let us know how we've affected development."?

Name one time where anyone on here has affected YOUR development! Changed your mind about something. 

^ Are you planning on writing a 5 pages report for the last update and post it in a separate thread like a rebel you are? I'm bored AF here and wanna read more of people's impressions on it.

No. IBN has affected my development too much. 

I plan on writing a one-line post in a separate post. . . . And then following THAT up with a 5-page report on the replies.

You convinced me to give you a fake internet point that one time...

But seriously...

Stardock does a great deal to change my opinions. I went from a very pro-SCO standpoint to a very anti-SCO standpoint all because of the omission of Local Multiplayer. Remember that I was one of the few people defending the ability to change camera angles from top-down. That is completely off the table now because I based the assumption that it would not block the inevitable inclusion of Local Multiplayer.

But we love you for it. It shows that you care about not making our forum lives hell.

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 55

I plan on writing a one-line post in a separate post. . . . And then following THAT up with a 5-page report on the replies.

Hey, that works for me. Do it or no more fake internet point for you!!

It can be very easily solved with a passive ability for each ship.  About half the ships already don't have a problem with this.  The ones that do can have their passive ability address dealing with a ship at the map edge, the ones that don't need this can just get a passive ability that fits with their theme.  Like the HyperWarp Skip you could give the Scyrve, or the proximity torpedo the Dan Noth already has, it is really easy to come up with unique ways for different ships to reach/attack the map edge.  Fixing it with some kind of timer is the "band aids and string" way of addressing this issue, that's how you fix this problem when you aren't capable if identifying what the problem is.  It's a much better game when you fix the actual problem, and not just try to hide it beneath band-aids and string.

If health regenerated this would be a much more difficult problem to deal with.  But remember that your health does not regenerate, which makes this pretty easy to deal with.  As long as you can damage a ship trying to ride the map edge with some kind of regularity, the tactic doesn't work because health does not regenerate.

It's how you fix the issue when realize that the "band aids and string" fix is more cost and time effective than adding 15 new abilities.

Nothing comes free here.

They must address the issue of griefing somehow or else they will lose out on SuperMelee players paying for combat add-on DLCs. (Though they could also make people pay for the griefing solution via DLC.)

You argue that since health is limited, the duration of combat is limited. I argue that for this problem, combat only has to last long enough for me to piss you off.

A timer really isn't a good solution, the overall game suffers greatly.  This type of game is more that the sum of it's parts.  It has a quality too it that other games don't have, because it is so deep and there is so much actually going on that the player's sense is there even though they are many years away from understanding what exactly that is if they were to begin studying it.  This "timer" is just a way of fixing a "mysterious problem" that is not understood instead of addressing the actual root cause of the problem.  It's actually only a few of the ships that are going to have a big problem with this, maybe 5 or 6 of them at most.  A passive ability for each ship is the best way to deal with it, for this specific situation and map design, but they could just change the weapon or ability on the 3-6 ships that have a problem with it and not need new passive abilities for all ships.

Just a timer is not really a good idea, it just works.  It's what I think of as a "safety valve" idea... it will work if we can't find a good way to fix it.  I would actually be embarrassed to have to use the timer, other people who have this knowledge would make fun of me for the timer, haha:-)

Oh, and for that Dan Noth "proximity torpedo", assuming that is what that weapon is, Subspace had a very cool way of making that work.  In Subspace the "Photon Torpedo" of that game could achieve a "direct hit" where it did not detonate at the detection range and instead went all the way in for a +50% damage direct hit.  They did this by the approach vector of the weapon, if it is on target for a direct hit it doesn't prox detonate and instead goes in for an extra damage direct hit.  It gives the weapon a much better feel, and it always feels great when you get the "dead on target direct hit" with it.  Especially at long range.

I agree, but... You should post this in the October review thread. And use the Chenjesu Broodhome direct hit as the example rather than Subspace or SFB (since few of us care about Subspace or SFB and our eyes glaze over every time they are mentioned).

It worked very differently in Subspace, it has a feel too it that primitive "exploding into bullets" version doesn't have.  It would be a mistake to ignore all that was learned from SFB and Subspace in making the supermelee, although starting over from scratch and re-inventing the wheel is certainly a tradition in the computer game industry:-)

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 63

It worked very differently in Subspace, it has a feel too it that primitive "exploding into bullets" version doesn't have.  It would be a mistake to ignore all that was learned from SFB and Subspace in making the supermelee, although starting over from scratch and re-inventing the wheel is certainly a tradition in the computer game industry

 

We're not ignoring it. All we're asking for is give it to us in common context. The vast majority of us didn't even know what the hell SFB was until we had to pry it out of you. It's common courtesy, and you have no idea how much I had to clean this up before I posted it.

Well, like I mentioned.  In the case of this torpedo thing I was pointing out in Subspace it wouldn't proximity detonate if it is on target for a direct hit.  This gives the weapon a more dynamic feel to the player, if your aim is dead on you do extra damage.  It can have a "screen shake/sound" to go with it, like a critical hit does in a game like Path of Exile.  This also helps to balance the powerful Dan Noth.  It's proximity damage can be weaker now, while still having the high damage weapon when your aim is perfect.  You don't really need to understand Subspace to understand it.

Sometimes when I am talking about maneuver related subjects, those can actually be far too complex for me to fully explain here.  I know you don't want to read 20 pages on the Kaufman Retrograde, for example, so I try to just stick with what is relevant to the issue related to Star Control.  Like with the griefing issue we have been discussing here.

You can just use the common-day gaming term: Kiting

To use it in a sentence: If they don't put in some sort of timer to limit match duration, I am going to kite you or find some other way to prolong the fight until you rage quit.

Right, see, if you just cut every mention of Subspace from what you just said, we'd still understand it. We don't need to know where the concept came from. If it's a good mechanic, it makes sense regardless.

I went to https://www.reddit.com/r/subspace/

and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVrgtjIOS_Q&nohtml5=False

Then I went to https://www.reddit.com/r/StarfleetBattles/

and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqFqtJPivN4

Then I got bored and now I don't wanna read about SFB or Subspace anymore. 

What did you make me watch? WHAT DID YOU MAKE ME WATCH?!?!? Oh my god. 

I think we found a solution to the griefing problem. Anybody intentionally delaying the game has to play a round of SFB with Kavik in order to restore access to SuperMelee.

Alternatively, let us all agree to never mention SFB again.

Well, if you really don't want to understand how it works I could just sit silently with over 40 years worth of relevant knowledge and watch the usual computer game industry method of "blindly blundering forward through trial and error, praying that things work out well in the end".  98% of the time they don't work out well in the end, and for some reason that is some kind of mystery.  But, sure, if you'd rather do this the modern game industry way I can just shut up and occasionally stop by to see which stone-age era the discussion is currently in.  For comic relief, haha.  I just thought I'd help someone actually do it right for a change, since I really like SC a lot.

And SFBAddict is a newb, here are some people who actually know what they are doing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-sNRaBO03E

No, don't go anywhere. Just try to keep your base material in your posts relative to Star Control. If those games were based on SFB, there are some analogies built into those games that you can use in your discussions. (See the Broodhome comment I made.) You don't need to refer to SFB when you can refer to the same concepts in Star Control. By using those games as anchor points, we all have a common platform we can reference and discuss.

I am doing that as much as possible.  It might be partly an ingrained habit from the SFB staff.  I am accustomed to making the source of ideas and concepts known, people "slipping things past" the designer and into the game had been a problem with this cooperative method of game design in its infancy.  So always revealing source material is pretty well programmed into me, to allow the designer to decide if they want that in their game.  Or maybe they want to use the general idea, but alter it so it isn't the same thing as it was in the original source.  It's just kind of a disclaimer so if it is something from another game, the devs and SD know that.

SVC never would have allowed the Plasmatic Pulsar Device into SFB had he known it was named after Wendy O' Williams and the Plasmatics, for example.  So if I mention a specific weapon or device from another game, I'll mention where it is coming from so they know about that and have all the information about where it is coming from, and where their audience might already be familiar with it from.

Simple: Vote-to-kick the griefer.  It's 1v1 so you just need 1 vote.

(Yes, I'm joking...)

Seriously, it's a good topic.  I'll have to give it some more thought, but so far I'll just add that I'm not particularly excited about a draw/dual loss/random loser solution. It is the most straightforward solution, but I'd rather give the griefer a reason not to waste my time at all, not just limit the time he/she can waste. Also, a match timer means I that an epic battle where both players are sweating bullets can be cut short, and that's just too sad. Largely, it's frustrating for games to be limited in some way for all players because of what a very few players might do.

I am interested in seeing what you come up with. I agree with you about not being excited about the solution, and I also agree with you that it is unfortunate that we would have to implement anything to correct for bad behavior. But this is what we get when we open the game up to playing games on the internet.

Still, the main reason I favored a speed normalization solution over a strict timer was to force battles to a conclusion without completely stripping a ship's advantage. Fast ships would still be able to fight, but they wouldn't be able to outrun and disengage. It isn't perfect because a ship with a fast turning speed could keep on your flanks, but at least they are kept in range.

I really want to hear what Andrew is planning, and it is sad that the only response we got was on a personal level. It always feels like we have to drag information out of him.

It isn't a problem that needs to be addressed that way, though.  The map is already in good shape assuming it is the right size, more than half of the ships probably do not have a problem with a ship on the map edge.  The ones that do have a problem with it can easily be altered so that they have a way of dealing with it.  Health does not regenerate, making this actually very easy to eliminate in this scenario.

The Scyrve "inter system warp" I suggested fixes more problems with that ship than just the map edge thing.  That is, I am assuming, supposed to be "the big scary evil ship" like the Ur Quan of this game.  It isn't, the way it stands now.  Most of the faster ships will just humiliate it.  But if it jumps on any ship that separates for too long... with that big powerful Vux gun... Now it is "relentless".  You are just forced to fight it.  There is no escape, and if you try to escape it just makes things worse when it jumps on you.  Of course, health does not regenerate... so it is not too powerful, but "scary and relentless" like you want that particular ship to be.

With the Scyrve and Dan Noth already not having a problem with a ship on the map edge, there are probably only a few ships left that need a change to fix the problem for real.  Does anyone think a timer is a good idea on it's own, when it is not needed other than because you think it is a cool idea in itself?  Because that is the situation, this problem is elementary stuff and is easy to deal with in a real way so that the problem doesn't even exist anymore.