Ship Balance and the BPV System

from StarControl Forums

The supermelee point system from SC was actually just SFB's “Basic Point Value” system, there is a lot of the Star Fleet Universe in Star Control. As I mentioned before, this system means that the ships don't have to be balanced. The more powerful a ship is, the more points it costs. Too an extent. Since SC is always 1v1 you can't make any ships like the Death Probe or Juggernaught of the SFU that can only be destroyed by multiple ships, but other than that it really doesn't matter how powerful a ship is. It will just cost more. I already understand about half-a-dozen of the new SC ships very well just from what they have shown (I can guess their health/speed/maneuver pretty well too, I think), so I thought I would use two of these ships and the comments I made in the other thread to illustrate some of the intricacies of how this system works. Us SFB guys have a very deep understanding of this very simple system.

As I mentioned in the other thread the Dan 'Nath is very powerful. It has a very powerful combination of abilities. A “Gravitic Torpedo” is essentially a better Photon Torpedo, and really one of the most powerful sci-fi weapons ever conceived. As is the “balanced” version we use in games that is true, but imagine a “real” Gravitic Torpedo that created a larger singularity... and one-shot anything it detonated on:-) It also has “Repel”, about the most powerful ability there is. A balanced cloaking device doesn't compare to repel. But this is actually fine, because of the BPV system. I suggested maybe taking repel away and giving it a gravitic mine to keep it's theme, which they could still do. But if they want the Dan “Nath the way it is, for the story or whatever, it can exist as it is... it will just cost more. If it costs too much, it won't get used often. Only “for fun”.

Let's assume it is as it is, with the Gravitic Torpedo and a Repel that even repels incoming fire. It will be the most expensive ship. The Measured is a nemesis ship of the Dan 'Nath. I know you are all thinking that you drop the warp point on the way in to a combat pass, then warp back too it after you fire. And you do, that is the most common way you use it. But against the Dan 'Nath you drop it the instant before you fire... and he repels you and your shots. Then you warp right back on top of him and stay on him firing while is longer arming weapon and device recharge and get a bunch of free shots in on him. (It is important for balance that Photon weapons do feedback damage at point blank range, the AOE should affect the firing ship). So The Measured is awesome in general, and a nemesis ship of the Dan 'Nath... and cheap.

The Measured will be one of the more expensive, or possibly even most expensive, of the cheaper ships. So what seems like some good starting numbers here are that The Measured costs 12 and Dan 'Nath costs 36. The “balance” is that to “get the value out of” having chosen an expensive ship like “Dan 'Nath, you are going to want to kill 2-3 of the enemy ships before you die in the Dan 'Nath. Since health does not regenerate, even between combat rounds, no matter how powerful a ship is it won't last long. This is the “balance” of this system, and these two ships are where I would start as the “spine” of determining the point values. Use the LOWEST numbers possible that work, which is why I have started at 12-36. I assume a ship might cost as little as 6 points, and that I would likely wind up inflating Dan 'Nath's cost “off the scale” to 40 and make the next most powerful ship cost 36.

Hopefully this example of the system is helpful to everyone in understanding this part of supermelee.

 

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Reply #1 from StarControl Forums Top

Kavik, you make all of these assumptions without evaluating other factors. Energy cost, damage, max crew, energy regeneration, and speed all add up. For all we know, the Measured could be this game's equivalent of the ZFP. Or that the DanNath's black hole generator is weak in the damage department. You are quick to discount the Scryve in your last post for similar reasons. You are making assumptions about the game without all the facts. 

Consider that on paper, the Yehat Terminator sounds like an awesome ship. In reality, it is pretty mediocre when compared to the other damage mitigators. The Yehat ships are not as cool/fun as the Pkunk or as powerful as the Utwig. 

Take the abilities we are shown at face value. Evaluate if they are fun or not fun. And push for more details to be released. Even if they are pre-balanced or half-assed-implemented, videos of abilities would be useful.

Reply #2 from StarControl Forums Top

Like I said, I understand about half of these pretty well.  The other half I will need to wait and see, like you are saying.  The Greegrox ship is the most confusing too me, it must be unique in some way that I am not understanding because it seems totally useless... but they've been using these ships internally for quite some time now, and they are not idiots, so I must not quite understand exactly what that ship is.  Others I am unsure of.  But these two I have used in this example I pretty much fully understand exactly what they are just by what they have told us.  The Scyrve, also.  The Scyrve is very good, it's just that not being able to turn while shooting a Vux-like "cutting beam" is very limiting.  It's not a problem, that design for a ship will work just fine, it's just not a ship I would likely pick (going to be an expensive one, too) because it has that big limitation.

I can actually predict what health, speed, maneuver, etc, of the half-dozen or so of these that I understand.  None of that is new too me.  The Greegrox appears to be something new too me, I have some guesses about that one but don't really understand it at all.  That is one I will need to see to understand.

 

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 2

The Greegrox ship is the most confusing too me, it must be unique in some way that I am not understanding because it seems totally useless... but they've been using these ships internally for quite some time now, and they are not idiots, so I must not quite understand exactly what that ship is.  

The description says that it plays like the game "Snake". Whether it damages on contact is to be seen, and the left/right firing modes are cryptic. Does it mean that it fires on the left/right side of the body?

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 2

But these two I have used in this example I pretty much fully understand exactly what they are just by what they have told us.

But what happens if the firing rate or the number of shots that The Measured has is low enough to prevent that maneuver you described. Or what if the laser bola is not effective at close range? You cannot make accurate balance or point cost recommendations based on a system that isn't fully fleshed out.

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 2

The Scyrve, also.  The Scyrve is very good, it's just that not being able to turn while shooting a Vux-like "cutting beam" is very limiting.

And thus you assume that the Scryve beam is a DOT effect like the Vux laser and not an extremely powerful DD effect with a side-effect that prevents the ship from turning during the animation. It could be. It could not be. We don't know. 

 

Rather than make assumptions, ask questions!

Reply #4 from StarControl Forums Top

They have revealed a lot more than is apparent.  Some things simply must work certain ways, and because SFB has been so overwhelmingly influencial within this genre modern gamers are essentially programmed to think along the lines of the SFU even though they've never heard of it before.  

For example, The Measured will have a weapon with a high rate of fire, certainly much higher than a Photon Torpedo, which is essentially what the Dan 'Nath weapon is.  The Measured will be very much like the Airilou, fast and very agile (due to inertialiess drive).  Very low health.  It seems faster to the player than it is, because of its drive, and is probably not the fastest ship... by may feel like it is to the player using it.  Its weapon has to be effective at close range, it can't have what we call a Myopic Zone like the feedback damage of a Photon weapon creates.  

When I say the Scyrve ship is tactically "unreliable" it is because the main gun is so limited and hard to use.  It could work perfectly fine, and certainly can be made to if it doesn't now, it's just not my style and not a ship I would pick.  Like the Sophixti in SC2, it's a great deal if you can trade it for an high value ship... but I was always terrible at hitting with its self destruct.  So it as "tactically unreliable" too me, so I didn't use it.  Of course, you might be really good at doing that... and then it is a ship you might use.

These are very simple ships we are talking here, and I literally have a lifetime of experience with this stuff.  I understand about half of these ships very well, like I said, there is actually a lot more information revealed about some of them than it appears.  Because based on the weapons/devices, certain things just go with that and anyone will make those same decisions.

I hadn't noticed the "snake" comment, that had been one of my guesses... that it was some type of "Snafu" type ship, which is the same thing.  That one sounds fun, and is a good example of me being in the same boat with the rest of you on a ship.  That one isn't something obvious too me like these two I had mentioned are.

I was mostly trying to provide an example of how the system works and how it is balanced.  I'll put the same thing a different way.

DD = 6-12

CL/CA = 13-26

BC = 26-32

BB = 32+

The balance lies in "how many ships is this bigger ship worth".  If can also be looked at as above.  Notice how a Destroyer (DD) is half the price of a Heavy Cruiser (CA).  So if you are going to take a CA, you'd want to make sure you killed 2 destroyers with it just to break even.  For example.  This is another way of saying the same thing I was saying before without using any specific ships.  

Reply #5 from StarControl Forums Top

In another thread someone suggested adding a second weapon to "modernize" the game a little.  That made me think of a different idea for doing that, which also might help out the devs with the "spare points" issue.  Say we decide to fight with 200 point forces.  There might be some odd points left over.  But because we are using such small numbers for a tight balance, assuming you are, then this will work great.  Assuming there was a cheapest ship that cost 6 points given the example above, you could have a bonus that can be bought for 4 points.  This is a means of spending "left over" points, if a player has them.  Or the player might arrange his selections to create those 4 points to get the bonus on purpose.  In the BPV system "extra" points are spent on "commander's options", and this idea was inspired by that... and because it's cool!

So with these 4 points you can give one of your ships it's "power up".  You can only spend 4 points on this, and buy only one power up for any one of the ships (regardless of ship value/size).  The "power up" can then be unique to each ship.  It might enhance an existing ability, add some kind of passive ability, it can always be something thematic with the ship.  You custom design each of these power ups for each ship, and each ship has only that one way that it is enhanced by this bonus.  So this then adds one more element to ship selection, and adds something in game as well.  And gives you more ability to "go with the theme" of each ship in the design of the ships.