July 31 music

The alien dialog themes are all decent enough, but I'm extremely underwhelmed with the melee theme. Is that supposed to be a pre-battle/ship selection/configuration theme? Because it sure ain't a Star Control melee theme. Not only is it way too slow, it doesn't have a single red alert klaxon. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I've written better melee themes and I'm concerned this one is headed off in the wrong direction.

I also believe it would be extremely interesting to have many different melee themes, ideally one for each alien race so that the combat music changes to suit whoever you're fighting.

The space themes are nice; different from what we had in SC2. I like the Xraki one the most because it is very ambient. Can't help but feel all the space themes should be ambient because they are supposed to be atmospheric in nature and take a backseat to the action. There may have been only one space exploration theme in SC2, but it really conveyed the cold vastness of space. I would hope there will be some acknowledgement of this by having similar non-intrusive ambient themes when you are not in a particular alien's territory.

I like the music samples - vibey, varied, all-round good. 

What I can't comment on is how well they *fit* their intended use.

Riku is on point - loved every track and could easily visualize how it fits into my exploration of space.

And while the Melee track is awesome in it's own right, and hope it does find a place in the game - the one used for actual battle should borrow from the intensity of the original Melee track. 

I'm very curious to see how the Shipyard/Outfit-Starship music is. 

Overall, tremendously excited and hope that all future monthly updates include music. The original Star Control 2 soundtrack is a brilliant accomplishment that is going to be hard to top, but Riku is definitely getting me excited. 

I really love where the music is going. I love the overall synth / space theme.

Having music for different planetary types is a great idea. As you move from pre-battle to an actual battle on a planet will the music shift to a more driving type? I like these "pre" battle tracks. They start out dark and alluding towards the conflict to come.

Will there be more than one Dialogue / space track for each race based on your current status with them, peace/war? (additional in game music as a DLC?)

I feel each race should have an easily identifiable music hook that you pick right up on. I noticed this in the Tywom tracks right away.

The Tywom dialogue track has a hook that starts almost immediately at the beginning of the track but then you don't hear it again until 2:05 minute mark. But maybe this allows you to focus on the quest dialog VS the music track until you've been in the screen for a couple minutes. Don't want TOO much of a good thing. You hear the hook starting @ 0:36 in the Tywom space theme and then again around 1:33.

 The Drenkend dialogue opens up with an identifiable bass hook. I like it a lot. You hear it again at 1:06 and plays for 40 seconds in the mix. Even if it was a background track it digs in in your mind. I think it should be mixed in again subtly towards the end of the track(not the very end though since I assume the tracks will loop). During the Drenkend space track I hear a modified version but not until 2:15, pretty far into the track but it does last for 40 seconds.

During the first minute of the Xraki dialogue track you start to hear a hook. At 00:37 in the space track and then again towards the end you hear it. The hook is just a bass rumble. I prefer Xraki dialogue 1:05 which sounds like more of a hook as it has different tones, rising and falling not just a bass pulse.

I like the Super Melee theme but I feel it needs more drive. Melee should be intense, action packed. Probably my favorite "intense" music track from a game would be the menu music from Red Alert 2. File is called "eaglehun.wav" that I found in the game directory.

I have a unique perspective on music.  I think SCII might be one of if not the last game I ever played with music on.  I remember hearing all the music playing it, and loving the SCII music.  But sometime right around when SCII was new, like 25 years ago, I began turning off the music in all games as a part of installing them.  I have the music disabled before I ever start a game for the first time, or turning it off is the first thing I do when I get to the main menu for the first time.  I want all the sound effects, and have really nice computer speakers (Bose 501s), but I don't want to hear the music.  It's distracting, like in a Mel Brooke's movie I'm looking around wondering where that music is coming from.  It's just "unrealistic" too me, for some reason.  It's also inevitably repetitive, and if I want music on I will play Rush, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Van Halen, Metallica, Iron Maiden, or maybe even Frank Zappa... but definitely don't want to hear whatever music the game wants to repeat over and over again.

But, then again, the atmospheric music is something I remember the most about the old SC.  The point I am getting at is maybe there is one place where you could FORCE the SC music on, in hyperspace maybe, where it is on in that one place only even if the player has disabled the music.  I am thinking I will probably play Stardock's SC with the music on, at least at first to see if I like it that way for this game, just because it is such a memorable part of the original for me.  Forcing the players like me to hear and feel the "atmospheric enhancement" of SC-style music in a space adventure game might inspire others like me to turn the music on in this one game, just because it makes the experience better... and doesn't have you looking around for the band like Mel Brooks:-)

And now that super melee is right around the corner I'm dreaming of some good hard driving battle music!

It is?  When do we get supermelee?  I can't wait to play a top down arcade space shooter again!!!

I'm still gonna miss Space Hockey:-(

Soon (TM). Also, if you haven't seen the video, while I know you're excited for top-down (and that's still totally possible), the new multi-gravity well system is far easier to see from an angle.

Hey, things are getting interesting now. So I'll take a break from the deep future of my own universe, and the intergalactic invasion that is underway there, for some Star Control!!! I've only read the text file so far.

I think you are exactly on target focusing on the planet, that is the by far obvious place that can be transformed in a modern way that everyone will agree is an improvement.

The mushrooms on Venus are weird, I understand the comment someone else made about them... by I LOVE the look. I don't know the story of why Venus looks this way, but I really like this screen a lot. Everything about it really. The planet... the color. Before color I always used Amber monitors instead of green... I love the Amber, it is almost nostaligic too me as the computers I used right up until Star Control came out. And the mushrooms genuinely have me woundering how Venus came to be like this, so it works on that level with me as well. I just really do like the look, though.

On the supermelee screen I can see that your solar systems are actually very small. A lot smaller than I had been thinking. This is a good thing. The smaller the better until it is too small-) From this screen it appears that you may be at a very good size for the whole map, but hard to tell from just this map. A lot smaller than what I was thinking, though. You really don't want to fight a Klingon or Andromedan on an open map.

Modular ship design... got it. Romulan Hawk Series, I've done that one before... Is it permanent or can you change the modules at any base that has them like my Romulan's can?

I like that you are keeping the mothership weak in the early game and forcing the use of satellite ships. There are other ways of forcing the use of satellite ships in the later game as well. Through story “The weapons on the big ship are broken right now, sorry, use the little ones”, terrain “the big ship can't go there, but the little ones can”, and opponent “that thing will probably kill the big ship, but the Chmmr kills it easily”. And other ways I'm sure you will see when you get there. In my mind, if the player always uses the big ship, and never uses the little ones, I completely failed in the design of the game. If I was making it, and critiquing myself.

That thing about customizing the shape of your ship will never go away. Sleek and thin is always going have an “inherent evasion advantage” over big and bulky, and nothing can change that other than cheating with hitboxes or something like that. The size and shape of the ship ARE a part of it's balance, a big part! I wouldn't fight physics, I've never seen anyone win that fight yet. You can, of course, cheat. I would if I could make it work, and I wanted that thing. “Illusion” is my style. So if you can do it in a technical way, say with the hit boxes, that the player won't notice... AWESOME!!! SVC might have even give you a Battle Star for that one if you did it in his game:-)

The easiest “AI” for wingmen is to lock them in place in a V or Diamond formation as if the formation were a single ship. They mirror you PREFECTLY as if a single ship. The fire with you... “concentration of firepower at the option point”. I didn't say it was the most realistic way, just the easiest way... and a good starting point to expand into something more realistic from.

I assume by the comment about tilting the camera angle a little in combat you meant the default setting and I can still set mine into straight top down and leave it there. I don't need to play it, I have enough experience with these games already to tell you that I won't even want to play it if I can't play it that way. There are a lot of others that won't as well. It really is a huge deal that messes with a whole lot of things. Of course, as long as I can set my screen that way... I don't care if others want to disadvantage themselves against my perfectly clear vision of all aspects of what is going on:-)

This all looks really great too me. It really does. I actually can't wait to play the full adventure game now after seeing all of this, and up until now I had just been dying to get my hands on any computer top down space shooter again because it's been since Subspace that on existed. Now I am really wanting to play the full game a lot more than just having Supermelee as my version of a FPS game, which is what they are too me. They are my FPS games, and FPS take a distant back seat too them:-)

I haven't looked at the movie file yet, I'll have to look at that later.

^ Do you wanna repost it in the proper thread, so people can quote and reply?

This seemed to be where people were talking about this, I guess I missed the right thread.  I don't want to post the same thing twice.  I'll let the mods move it if they want that.

Mods can move this to a new thread whenever that reply gets moved as well. You really need to watch that video clip before you comment on Super Melee. Once you do, you'll see the importance of camera tilting.

Don't get me wrong, the planet looks pretty good even if I'm against the comically oversized features being visible from space.  Pretty sure it's been sufficiently proven there aren't any mushrooms on Venus (aka my comment was a bit of a joke).

I just looked at the movie.  There is nothing in it that would indicate that I can't lock it into top down for combat, nothing from preventing that option.  I like the angle in that movie for exploration, everywhere except combat.  There is no reason not to let players have the option of putting it top down if we want, other than the advantage we will have over those who don't:-)

Last they said that would remain an option, and they haven't said anything that says that isn't still true.  I would still play the adventure game even if I couldn't put it into top down, but I would never have any interest in super melee like that.  And would only be playing the full game to get the story, and tolerating the fights or even just letting the AI do it, or pick a quick fight option if there was one.

I'm not saying you can't play in top-down, I'm saying you'll be at a huge disadvantage if that's the only perspective you play from.

No... you will be the one that is at a disadvantage.  Your ability to see me on screen at irrelevant ranges is not going to help you against my 100% situational awareness and *undistorted* view of the action and understanding of the true spacial relationships that are in motion.  I will see more, more clearly, and my aim will be FAR better than yours. 

I would only play top down in combat, everywhere else I like the angled view better for the same reason as everyone else, it looks a lot better that way.  I would tolerated a forced angled view in combat to play the full game, because it is Star Control II and all the other parts of the game are looking to be amazing.  If the lander game is fun too me, that alone will probably make me want to play it all the way through.  Also, nobody has ever done a "looney toons" looking space universe which is an idea I have always wanted to do myself by knew I would never get to anything like that anyway even if I were making computer games.  And that is basically what they are doing, so even forgetting SC2 just what Stardock is doing alone looks awesome too me and I know I will love all the rest of it just from what thevy've shown so far.  As long as the story is just stupid or something, which seems very unlikely too me.  So I can't wait to play "looney toons space game" either way.  It's really just supermelee that I would really never mess with much if it was like Star Control 3, which is what this is.  This is THE main, really only thing, that made me never even try SC3... I bet many others as well.  All you needed to see was the angled view to know they had ruined it.  This was actually a somewhat "cult" popular genre at that time and SC3 just looked plain stupid to us at first glance because of that.  Today it is understandable since that "cult" genre is so long gone by now... but back them it really made them look like idiots for having done that.

EDIT: I just had to add this here once I thought of it, haha.  I am guessing they aren't planning on preventing people from just locking it top down, or at least putting it there, in combat only.  But just in case, in the spirit of a self explanatory game design term I use called a "safety valve"... Could you at least put a secret "Old School" code somewhere in the game that automatically just always locks space combat only everywhere in the game, and then make it public somehow with a joke about how only people over 40 can have the code... and you'll be checking IDs!!!  And then use that for marketing... and give me the code right from the beginning!

Hahahahahahahahaha, I thought the people at Stardock would like that one...  Glad to have started your morning with a smile for you.  Carry on...

You still haven't watched the video, have you? Seriously, stop speaking out of your ass and watch it.

I did watch the video, what are you talking about?

So you should know there's a MASSIVE disadvantage for anyone without a clear view of the multiple gravity wells in combat. That's a pretty big deal. Like, in top down, all you're going to see are the planets, not the extent of the size of their gravity wells. I'm not sure if you saw, different sizes of planets had different sizes of gravity wells.

^ You get a hang of it with XP. You don't need visual representation of gravity wells, unless they are random AF. Where a Mercury sized planet can have gravity of a Jupiter and visa versa. That'd be just plain stupid though.

I, myself, am really not a fan of a combat grid. Even in TBS games I always turn it off. I feel the combat with the grid will come down to where you use the grid to line up your shots instead of instinctive visual aim. You gonna get so reliant on the grid that that's all it's gonna be for you - a grid melee.

Unless they remove the grid in combat, being able to see it will be a clear advantage. If both players have access to the feature, all that matters is who lives, not who did or didn't use it.

^ So, you'd rather dumb down combat to grid exploitation? No wonder so many people hate MP...

No, I'm saying if people don't use the tools given to them, that makes them less competitively viable.

This would be the first game I know of like this that has even had any type of grid to show you where the gravity is.  You will feel the gravity, you don't need to see it.  There are many advantages to top down, but the big one is the "spacial relationships in motion" that I mentioned before.  I was describing this same thing earlier when we were discussing this in a different way.  My main exprience with this, other than the many similar arcade games and SC that came before it, was about 12 years of playing Subspace, so although this genre died... I kept playing it for a very long time after most thought there were no games like this anymore, so I have a lot of experience with it in actual real time as well as with SFB.  I was not the best Subspace player, well, except with one specific ship in one specific zone... I was pretty lethal with that combination.  But I have played these games a lot, it is really my favorite genre in both board games and computer games.

Like when I was earlier describing it as a "dance", that's what it is.  A "dance" of constantly changing spacial relationships between the two objects.  And you subconsciously "feel" it and know where to shoot for the lead to meet the target.  The angle distorts your understanding of these relationships, and your aim is also distorted with it.  The more distorted it is, the more your aim will be off.  See in the distance is no relevant.  Anything not within weapons range is never immediately relevant.  Everything is happening very fast.  You will see incoming shots from longer ranges usually easily in time to avoid them, only close things are critical.

You will become, very quickly, so accustomed to the flowing motion and rhythm of it and absolutely can't miss something like gravity changing the equation you have memorized... which is what makes it so addictive.  If you think like it is an FPS game, leading the target... you will not be very good.  That will hold you back, you almost actually need to "use the force, Luke".  Count on your feel for the situation and the "flowing dance" you have learned, and shoot on instinct, not "leading" and aim.  Your brain understands these spacial relationships, even though you don't consciencely discern them.  Another thing that makes these games actually addicting.

It's like a "zoom in sniper weapon", I know it sounds like a good idea... but if you are that far away I can dodge it.  If it is insta hit from that range it is too powerful unless the ship also has health regen... and even then I will run you down and you would by definition need to be weak there to exist as mr super sniper in the first place.  It won't be a ship anyone wants to use any way you make it... other than making it wildly too powerful.  Everything is moving very fast, if it doesn't work fast it generally isn't very useful.