DavidK: "There are many people including Senators, Judges, Foriegn Service Officers, FBI agents etc etc that are protesting both this war and the Bush administration's policies"

I don't know about the rest, but the Senate voted 99-0 in *favor* of the military action. So, if there are Senators now protesting, then they are hypocrites.

AS for protesting, I would think that is the *most* American thing that I person could do. I you really believe something, you should voice your opinion. It's not like the American people got to vote on this. If I felt strongly enough against the war, I would protest, too (I don't, but that is a different discussion). American is built on free speech. Peaceful protests are free speech. When they become violent, that is then illegal, not un-American.

kona, no offense, taken and none meant either.

Over reaction on my part, to much on the news, TV in general and the papers, and also on line about how unamerican it is not to fall into chorus line, and in not doing so you are saying you do not support the people fighting, killing and dying. All because you do not share the same point of view or, you are so unamerican you would actually presume to have a right to express yours which does not fit with the over powering accepted norm...



my bad...

Let me make something clear because at some point I was missunderstood yesterday ... I'm not in favor of Saddam -I too think
of him as a butcher from things I' ve heard- BUT I don't think war is the answer...

As an answer to the people that said Iraqis couldn't have overthrown Saddam...I come from a country -Greece- that for 7 years
was under junta- military dictatorship -(1967-1974). I wasn't even born then, but I know very well what it was like from my parents -for example: You couldn't walk in the streets with more than just another person for company, because a company of three and more people was considered suspicious -you could be conspiring a revolution- ... If you 'd like to check, we managed to overthrow that junta

Not only artists -ONE of the reasons american artists are arousing demonstrations, is because in past wars -and probably will be in this war too- there has been censorship to songs with anti-war messages- but students in Universities fought for a free Greece then! The leaders of the Greek junta were judged by NO other then the Greek people and recently we heard that the last of them died -being inprisoned for crimes against his country.

To da_zman20 that said that the reason many Iraqi children since 1991 are born with birth defects and die from cancer and leukemia are Saddam's mass distruction weapons and Saddam's weapons alone: As sig101 said I'm reffering to the use of depleted uranium in artillery shells used by the US in the Gulf War...and personally, to think that the american army will go down there with no biological weapons of their own is ...- to my point of view-...naive!

To Karmagirl that said I should debate my point of view with facts and not emotional images... these images are the true facts and results of war...
Oh... and where did I see and describe such images that I described yesterday??? If you haven't seen the videos that the organisation "Doctors without frontiers" have made from a tour in -after 1991- Iraqi hospitals, what can I assume...
CENSORSHIP????

Also many networks here are showing this war's victims from inside iraqi hospitals-including that little girl who was injured in her spine-

As I said at the beginning of this post, I'm not in favor of Saddam, but I'm not in favor of war too...

DON'T TRY TO SAVE A NATION FROM A BUTCHER BY BUTCHERING THEM YOURSELF!!!!

I hope you agree with me in some things...

Excuse me if I look a bit aggressive towards defenders of this current situation, but I think everyone knows the sideeffects in both sides (reminding the Gulf syndrome for many american soldiers -of those who made it back alive- )

kona - don't be upset or feel personally attacked. I understand what you're trying to say and I think most people do. Your opinion is as welcome here as any other. You've expressed your feelings with phrases that are easy to rebutt because in America the right to assemble and voice your opposition to the government is a cherished and essential measure of our freedom.

When that right is challenged is when everyone will know America is no longer free. I support our troops too even if I don't support the agenda that has placed them in battle. yvonne points out depleted uranium and Gulf War syndrome, both of which are atrocious abuses of public trust. Our troops who are sick and dying from the last war in the Middle East were abandoned by their own government. The people who bring this to the public's attention are trying to help our troops and restore trust and accountability in our government and are finally making some progress 12 years later.

Scientists have warned of the terrible effects of depleted uranium on a population. There is a coalition of doctors and scientists that is working to stop the indiscriminent use of these materials, by dissenting, by protesting because of its effects. When they finally succeed and this material is no longer used, potentially millions of innocent civilian lives will be saved.

yvonne, I wish more people could have your perspective and your passion. Thanks for your story about Greece, it should be never be forgotten that the "cradle of civilization" and the birthplace of democracy was brought to its senses by the activism of its people. Artists, writers, students - those people will usually be the first to see through a political agenda and bring it to the attention of the less involved majority who don't bother thinking about such things.

KarmaGirl - where did you get 99-0? I thought there were 5 Senators who refused to go along at all and about 20 who voted in favor with statements of dissent attached. No matter, it's done. But don't forget that the original proposal put before Congress was a duplicate of Hitler's war powers act that would have given Mr Bush the right to declare war against any country, for any reason at any time without Congressional approval or debate. That was a terrifying moment in American politics that seemed to go unnoticed by most of the public. The Bill was amended repeatedly until it was "only" for Iraq much to the dismay of the White House. There were repeated efforts by the White House to subvert the checks and balances of the American system and give the president dictatorial powers. The Senate thankfully did not allow this to happen though their performance was pathetic in allowing only 48 hours for debate on the final Bill and their performance was also pathetic in passing the Patriot Act without even reading it or debating any of its contents.

David: I believe KarmaGirl was referring to this week's recent Senate resolution of support, not the earlier authorization of the use of force. From the Senate's website:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SE00095:@@@P

ahh thanks sig... yes that must be it. I didn't know they'd done that.

I'm just working from memory, don't have time to go look stuff up (and I always forget how easy it is).

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/22/international/worldspecial/22WIRES-RALLIES.html

DavidK - you mean Amerikkka?? the home of the "if you disagree with me then your against me and I must kill you"?

/me hopes he lives in America and not Amerikkka


Yes paxx I find it funny that some anti-abortionist (or Pro Life) are pro-death penalty... and have guns in thier houses.

I guess it makes sense.


I am offically anti-war. I don't like it and don't want it to happen. Nevertheless I see Saddam as a serious danger to world stability and a imposing threat to many nations. I truely believe he would attack if he had enopugh power and would use acts of terrorism to strike American soil.

Also the fact that his people are treated and supppressed, depressed, and ditated to and the multipul agreements and sactions for weapons of mass distruction ignored I find that there is really only one option.


I don't like that option. I don't see any alternitive. Other options have been used.

Rev. Moon... I have heard of him before.

It is funny that Bush seems to be associated with him in many ways.

Isn't politics funny? Those guys are powerful men (Mr. Moon) and the idea of him believing he is the second coming would not surprise me at all.


I hink the only reason Bush and other politition find themselves talking to them is for votes and to get agreement passed. They really say some stupid things that most officails distance themselves from. (9/11 is punishment because of Gay rights could be an example)


I call it the Archie Bunker Syndrome. Loveable as they are you know they make no sense for the most part.

religion is odd.. Politics is a shame, sham?

I dunno its what we've got and it has been pretty solid up to this point in time, only time will tell if it actually is strong or weaker I am guessing.

For all the disllike and mistrust of Bush and his people that I harbor, I can not say that he does not have the best interests of Americans in his heart and mind, though exactly what group has be baffeled....

seriously though if people want it to change then there is 2004... and change will come about all they need to do is ignore the crap from both sides and vote thier minds and hearts. The rest just have to bend over the barrel and take it

speaking of protesting, if it gets out of hand and it is because they refuse to disperse, then they have removed any validation gain from the protest becaus ethey have lowered themselves to being common criminals... I mean how can you demand a forum, be given the right of making use of it, and then turn around and go crinimnal at the end of it and expect it to mean anything more than mob rule?

That is making WAR without the guns and the bombs, it is oppression without the seat of power...
sorry just how I feel about it...

I demand you listen to me and I demand you give me freedom to present my case and now that I have I poke you in the eye to drive my point home thank you very muchly...

Gives me shivers thinking these same confused morons are going to be spitting, and I am going to end up going to freaking jail ...

really really

I always figured Bush's association with the moonies was for campaign contributions. But now I wonder... Bush has some strange coincidences with his "friends".

Did you know that the Bin Laden family are long time business partners with the Bushes? That's how Osama was picked to be the CIA's recruiter for Islamic fundamentalists that could be trained in terrorism. Osama's father in fact was killed in a plane crash in Texas after a meeting with George Bush Sr. When he died his son Saleem took over as the head of the businesses (their financial empire is quite huge). Saleem Bin Laden is the one that gave George W Bush a gift of $25 million to start his first company (filtered through the Carlyle Group). Saleem (strangely coincidentally) died in a plane crash in Texas after a meeting with George Bush. Two such coincidences are a bit much. The guy that shot Reagan (Hinckley) was the son of a business partner of George Bush's - he was even at his house for dinner the night before (or day after, I can't remember). Barry Seal (self described as "the world's biggest drug dealer") was murdered gangland style (and then some) and the police that responded were baffled when they found George Bush Sr's "personal private" phone number in his wallet (Barry always bragged to his friends that he worked for the CIA and was indeed implicated in the Iran/Contra affair where it was learned that the CIA was the number one importer of cocaine into the US). Barry had bought a new plane shortly before he died, he was very proud of it because it was all tricked out. Oddly enough, that plane today (coincidently) belongs to none other than George W Bush.

My only point is, don't delude yourselves into thinking there is any concern for "the public interest" in what's going on in politics, or that our leaders are straight-up decent people. The Moon thing only started bugging me when he "acquired" Falwell and Robertson and North Korea started threatening nuclear war. Knowing some of the history of your leaders is essential to the democratic process. Knowing how they arrive at public policies is also a guaranteed right to the citizenry that's written into the Constitution. Another right that is being scrubbed by the Bush administration after the GAO dropped it's disclosure lawsuit against Dick Cheney, succumbing to pressure from the the White House. Freedom carries with it the necessity to be aware. Freedom can be stolen from us, even here in the US, by manipulation of world events and public sentiment. The Constitution has survived for over two hundred years but it has never been in greater danger than today. Recently some Republican (I'll try to find the link) said the Constitution is an archaic document that is irrelevant in modern times. That kind of thinking endangers not only the very existence of our constitutional democracy but endangers the entire world.

The interent has more information on it than any politician of common citizen ever would like to have on it

DavidK you've state just the tip of the iceburg on why I do not trust Bush or his people, each of them has a history that is beyond just being questionable. Then again Clinton wasn't much better in amny respects. The only difference I see between either party is a lable. they are doing the same exact thing under a different wrapper and when called to the mat to produce fail hands down for anyone who is expecting more that does not outright support them from the start...

Ameri'ka might not be all that much of a fantasy...

You know something, they claim it is not conquest, who in the hell wants to attempt to occupy a Muslim nation when you can put a puppet in control? that is so freaking stupid a statemennt they shouldn't even mention it....

What they need to do is prove it by action, end Saddma rules, let the UN move in and pull out...

There, all the fears and everything else are done for, what do they owe us> not a damn thing they didn't ask for us to get Saddam we did it all on our own, anything else proves hidden motives that support the fears of everyone screaming about conquest....

I hope they have a collective intelligence to see that and not attempt to make it some kind of Economic boost, see America we are working on the economy! vote total world domination in 2004...

sheesh

I hope they are smarter than that...

My trust in the media is likely in the negative numbers, but, I just read something on UPI of interest: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

Here is a quick excerpt:
"A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head." "

how many sat and waited for the French before it became too much on then only a handful actually took up arms whlie many sat back in fear or turned to the opressor in hopes that when those that picked up arms where dispatched they would be forgiven and maybe even rewarded?

The USA did not become the USA without help from others outside our borders, and yes it was the French....

go figure

But then again walk through any of the Apalacian (spelling) mountains and speak to those who live off less than 4000.00 a year....

We have our own weak and starving to deal with, what in hell are we worried about those outside our borders before worrying about them first?

circles inside of circles....

looks good in print I guess

Madame X it's good to see you...

I have nothing but happiness that Saddam and his regime are going away. I was ecstatic that the Taliban were finally gotten rid of. So, why do we put these people in power and keep them in power for so long? Because they figure they will be 'friendly' to American (business) interests. As our own State Department said when confronting the reality of how the Taliban would commit murder, rape and torture while supressing human dignity, women's rights, literacy et all... "We can live with that". That's what pisses me off. It's done to "bring stability" to the region which means they'll cooperate with the oil companies and not get in their way. If the Taliban had agreed to the Unocal pipeline project they'd still be running Afganistan.

Why does America continue to install and support these monsters? Eventually we get rid of them but usually another gets implanted. Saddam didn't get rich and powerful without a lot of your tax dollars. Billions went into his weapons and palaces. It's criminal...

David
Respectfully, can you show me the money trail? I would considerately read anything you can show me on it. I would think oil alone would make him rich and powerful?

A deeper question might be, why isn't that enough? Looking at the television and seeing, not one, but many palaces, how come a person can't just make his money, and enjoy life?

The more i hear about Bush, The more I don't like him or trust him. You guys are starting to scare me.

I don't know, the logic escapes me... that's a question that one of them would have to answer...

I never understood why anyone would need a billion dollars. Right now, there are 300 people who's combined wealth is greater than the lower 3 and a half billion people on this planet. The top 1% of the of the pyramid have 90% percent of the money. I guess at that level you have different priorities, like how do I get the other 10% ?

Why dosen't mr bill gates be the president since he is the richest man in the world?

The last thing the richest man in the world would want is to be the president. Rich people buy presidents, they don't be them...

He should buy the president then make everyone in the world including mac users use windows XP.

Of course I am just kidding.

Back to watching the news about the war.

kona who? who is dis guy kona? I never hoid of 'im.....

and now for number 800, thank you very much.....

To funny. I love talking with you Jam.