Map Design

Another comment I noticed in the Feb release was a brief mention of how they envisioned combat taking place on a solar system map rather than a map with a single star.  I got the impression that they are still at a point of only having a general idea how the maps will work.  So I thought I would tell the devs my interpretation of what they are saying they want.  That might help solidify how this will wind up working in the end in their minds, give them some ideas, or be totally useless too them.  Who knows:-)

From what I have seen of their descriptions of how this will work, this is my understanding of it.  There will essentially be 4 "levels" of maps.

1) The "top" level, something like Quasispace from SC2.  These maps allow long distance travel with low fuel/time usage.  Mass has no gravitational effect on these maps, there are no gravity wells around planets.

2) Exploration/Transit map.  This is the "starmap".  Again, planets have no gravity here, you "dock" with them to enter their solar system map.

3) Solar system map.  Here you have entered a solar system.  Now planets have gravity, and this is the same map combat will take place on.  This map is also for exploration/movement within the solar system.  Combat is essentially an alternate mode of this map, and the camera could raise up from 3d Isometric to "God's view" top down for combat, combat is the only time it is important for the view to be pure top down if you want to retain the fun and addictive quality this genre is known for.

4) You have entered the near space of a planet.  Here you can scan, or send a lander.  The devs may not be realizing that there is also probably a need for combat on this map level as well, with only one planet on the map (or the planet and its moons).  Within this structure the "system defenses" I have mentioned in another thread would be on this map, not the solar system map, because on this map the planets do not have gravity or the gravitic effect is weakened to avoid intering with the fun of "peeling the onion" of any defenses that are present.  The fact that the system defenses are on this map level would mean they can't be used to deny access to a solar system, only the individual planets.

This is how I interpret this aspect of the game working from what you have described.  Hopefully this is useful too you in some way.

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Reply #1 Top

This all makes sense too me, except for one thing.  If the the planets on the solar system map have cartoonishly strong gravity wells the player uses to gain a temporary speed advantage... how do you "dock" with it to enter the planet level map.  Or, how do you send a lander from the solar system map if their is no planet level map?  The gravity wells of this genre are cartoonishly strong, they don't allow for any sensible form of "entering orbit".  The only thing I can think of is that the player hits button #3 as he whips by the planet and that brings him to the planet level map... but that seems like an odd way of doing it.

EDIT: Actually, it would seem quite normal and not odd at all with a transitional effect of the ship slowing and entering orbit when you hit button #3.  This could actually be pretty cool, an effect similar to what SFB players call "emergency deceleration" as the ship quickly slows into orbit and the game then transitions to the planet map.  This actually works great with just a simple animation effect to make the maneuver make sense to the player.

 

Reply #3 Top

Haha, I guess it could seem like that.  I was actually just trying to sort through how the maps will work since they brought it up and it's been something a few of us have wondered about before.

 

Reply #4 Top

Will there be any kind of implementation of Fog-of-War?

Reply #5 Top

Thinking about this more...

There are actually 6 levels of maps here.  Both Quasispace and Normal space are really 2 maps each, one informational and one functional.  In both cases there is the informational map that shows star locations, allows setting of the auto-pilot, etc, and then there is the "active" version of each of those maps that you actually fly between points on.  So really, there are 6 levels of maps, or you could say two of the levels each have 1 variant.

Also, logically combat can take place on any of the 4 "active" maps.  This was the case in SC2, except for Quasispace.  Remember being chased down by probes and aliens on the SC2 transit map?  In SC there was no combat on the quasispace map, but there could be.  The audience is used to accepting either form of combat.  Star Wars combat is said to be only at sublight speeds, Star Trek combat takes place at speeds many times the speed of light.  The audience equally accepts either version.  This is actually a good thing, because it provides variety in the maps combat takes place on.  It might be an empty open space fight in Quasispace, "terrain other than planet" laden map in normal space, a solar system, or a planetary system.  This gives 4 very different map types for combat to take place on in the single player game, which is a good thing.

 

Reply #6 Top

The powerful gravity wells of the solar system map are a very fun thing in this genre that have been present since the very beginning when you could put an asterisk at the center of the map ins Space Wars.  It's a great idea, but it also gets in the way of things like system defenses, talking to an NPC, or sending a lander.  This is why I have been envisioning a 4th level "planet map" that the devs have never actually mentioned.  The planet level map provides a place for all of these things to happen without the interference of the comically powerful gravity wells (which are a good thing) of the solar system map.

It might seem discontinuous that there is strong gravity on the solar system map that somehow disappears on the planet map, but this is easily explained by pseudo-science technobabble (of which, I am a master:-)

Travel on the Quasispace, Normal Space, and Solar System maps are all taking place at light speed.  When you enter the planet map you "emergency declerate" into orbit.  This is you slowing below light speed.  Due to the psysics of how lightspeed drives function in this universe, the effect of gravity on the ship is greatly magnified when the ship is traveling faster than light.  This effect only occurs when the drive system is pushing the ship beyond light speed, at sublight speeds gravity affects the ship normally.

Tada!  Now it makes perfect sense that gravity is almost non-existant on the planet map, the only map where you are at sublight speeds:-)

 

Reply #7 Top

...and to put a cherry on top of this.

I designed a top down space combat game on paper in some detail (220 pages) in 1997/98.  In that game the solar system maps would have been huge compared to Star Control taking 10-12 minutes to fly from one end to the other.  On a map of that size, and with the sophisticated "avionics" the ships in that game had, I used "terrain" to create a "structure" to space effectively creating a maze of "hallways and rooms".  While beyond awesome on a map where 60-80 players only sparsely populate it, this is a very cool thing.  But it isn't relevant on small maps with few ships and without the players having the types of goals they would have had in my game.

Star Control is very different, and should use terrain in a completely different way.  To provide map variety in the combat the player encounters over the course of the single player game.  Up until now I have been describing my interpretation of what the devs are saying they want, in this final post in this series, I am just adding a little of my own thing on top:=)

I will assume that the planet map will exist, so there are 4 base maps that combat might take place on.  "Quasispace", Hyperspace (what I previously called normal space but realize now was actually hyperspace in Star Control), Solar System, and Planet.  Each type of map generally uses different types of terrain, although some terrains might be found on more than 1 of the map types.  Remember what each map represents... The first three all represent different speeds of faster than light travel, each map represents a lower speed than the one before it.  And the planet map represents having decelerated to sublight speed. 

Theories of Combat - Each map has it's own theory of how combat is taking place.  In Quasispace the ships are assumed to be fighting in Quasi space.  The whole point of the Quasispace combat map is to provide a "clear and open map", there is never any type of terrain in Quasispace. In Hyperspace the ships are assumed to "pull each other out of warp" down to a lower light speed identical to the speed the ships are at on the Solar System Map (this makes hyperspace fights an environment identical to Solar System fights, except no planets)   And sublight combat on the planet map is simply in that "true space".  Combat originating on the Quasi and Hyperspace maps is taking place in open space, not near any solar systems.

 

Map-Wide Effect Terrain - These are terrain types that affect the entire map.  They are most commonly found in fights that originate in hyperspace, but could also exist on other maps as well (except the black hole, of course).

Pulsar - Regular EMP pulse empties energy.  Optionally, a "gravity wave" can also be associated with this that damages the ship and flings it a significant distance.

Black Hole- Remember, this is a fun and simple arcade game and not a realistic simulator.  This is the race track map.  The devs have said the maps in SC will be round, which is the best shape for them, and a black hole on just the right size circular map creates a race track:-)  The black hole itself is large, much larger than a planet or stare, and takes up a significant area of the center of the map.

Nebula - You all know this one from the Wrath of Khan.  The entire map is within a nebula.  The unlike most terrain types, the swirling clouds of the nebula are so think that they occasionally obscure ships for a while, resulting in an intermittent cloaking effect.  Optionally, lightning strikes similar to the lander game in the original SC might also be present.

Asteroid Field - The entire area is within an asteroid field.  This terrain type might be common on any of the maps except Quasispace, used in "patches and bands" on other maps rather than encompassing the entire map.  A ships that slows to near 0 in an asteroid field is cloaked, a ship that travels above 60-90% (needs testing) or so in asteroids takes damage.  Alternatively there is no map-wide version of an asteroid field and asteroid fields represent solid barriers that cannot be entered.  This allows their use as "walls".

 

Local Effect Terrain - These are small areas, "patches and bands", of terrain that might exist on any map except Quasispace.

Asteroid Field/Belt - As above.

Rogue Asteroid - Like the ones in SC that were randomly flying around and you might run into.  You can also do a comet, which is the same thing but moves faster and does more damage.

Stars, Planets, Moons - You've already got these covered.

Rings - Plantary rings can be used in many ways, with the powerful gravity well I would say they should damage ships that pass through them.  Then rings can be used to reduce the power of the "slingshot" effect you can get from that planet (because you can't get close enough to use its full effect.)

Ion Storm - EMP infused lightning strikes both damage and you and drain your energy, not a pleasant place to be.

Various Dust Clouds - We've all seen the hubble pictures that inspired this idea.  Space isn't an empty black void, it's filled with varying concentrations of particles of various types (at least in this universe it is) that affect ship operations in various ways. These are the key that allow you to do so much with terrain in space games.  [The me from 10 years ago can't believe that I am actually revealing this, but it's never going to get used by me so why not?;-)]  The dust clouds are... whatever you need them to be.  That's the beauty of it.  In my game, I needed them to affect sensors, scanners, and electronic warfare in a way that effectively created "hallways and rooms".  In Star Control I would suggest...

Red Cloud - Kills a crew unit at regular intervals as long as you are within the cloud.

Blue Cloud- No energy recharge.

Yellow Cloud - Speed slowed by 33%.

Green Cloud - Ship in green cloud cloaked to all ships not in the green cloud.  Ships in the green cloud can see each other.  (I threw this one in to give tiny glimpse of how this worked in my game, this cloud creates a "room" within Star Control's non-existent electronic environment).

Obviously any colors can be used, and you can probably think up some more cloud types as well. 

And there is another aspect to all of this.  I hereby grant the artists the gift of vibrantly colored space... to compensate them for trying to make them work in 2D:-)  Use it well, it's been waiting in the wings for quite some time now.

 

Reply #8 Top

Oh, one last thing.  I wouldn't want to later be accused of intentionally withholding this for my own benefit.

There used to be a guy in the board game industry who collected quotes by game designers.  While I have at least met most of the "legendary names" in game design, I never wound up meeting this guy to give him my quote, which is relevant here.

"Sauce for the goose, Mr. Savik, the odds will be even".  Not very original, I know, it's been used before.  But what it means to me within game design is this.  Mr. Spock was wrong.  The odds were not even.  By entering the nebula Captain Kirk gave himself a significant advantage.  When you raise the level of difficulty, you make the difference between the average and the expert more pronounced.

The solar system map is an "aces map".  "Speed is life".  That mantra of the Israeli Air Force, stolen by SFB players in the early 1980's, literally is true.  Speed literally is life.  You could literally make a simple equation for these types of games that would serve as an accurate guideline of how much life to remove for each unit of speed added.  It really is that direct of a relationship.  Someone who truly understands this can "surf" the multiple gravity wells to nullify an opponents speed advantage.  This actually takes a great deal of knowledge and skill, but if achieved means you have more powerful weapons/systems/ and health than any ship moving that fast has a right to have.  The faster ship loses it's only advantage.  The solar system map is an "aces map" that the best and most knowledgeable players can use to, flat out humiliate newbies, and gain an advantage on even casual experienced players.  I don't think this is unbalanced... but the solar system map is an ace's map.

 

Reply #9 Top

You're talking to yourself again.....not that i really mind but does the edit button not work?

Reply #10 Top

Quoting n0vast0rm, reply 9

You're talking to yourself again.....not that i really mind but does the edit button not work?

It would have been a pretty long single post;-)

 

Reply #11 Top

Hmm... I was certain someone would point out "But Kang, space isn't filled with colors, those cloud looking pictures are the result of filters designed to detect and display heavy concentrations of particles in space".

Why thank you for asking, imaginary person:-)

My uncle raised the same point.  I had him review the electronic warfare part of my game because he spent his life working on real-life electronic warfare systems at Raytheon.  He gave me lots of advice, and had that comment about the "colored space" thing.

Then I explained too him that the problem was that he is a real scientist, so he is thinking of real science... not the made up version I deal with.  You see, the pilot isn't seeing his surroundings with the naked eye, he is viewing it through his HUD-assisted transparent aluminum canopy.  And since these concentrations of particles affect the performance of his ship in significant ways, he naturally must be aware of their presence and location.  So, naturally, his HUD display is designed to provide this "situational awareness" that is vital to the operation of his craft.  Sounded good to uncle Richard.

Tada!  Yet another mircale of psuedo-scientific technobabble:-)

 

Reply #12 Top

*applause*


Wonderful   :')   (by the way this emoticon not displaying properly, it should be   :')           )

 

That was the greatest monodrama I have ever seen!


You have some very good points with good explanations.

But if you apply that to combat then you are assuming that all alien races have the same technology and same HUD interface which allows them to see the same color coding for space?

Reply #13 Top

whoops double post.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Xenove, reply 13


*applause*




Wonderful     (by the way this emoticon not displaying properly, it should be   :')           )

 

That was the greatest monodrama I have ever seen!




You have some very good points with good explanations.

But if you apply that to combat then you are assuming that all alien races have the same technology and same HUD interface which allows them to see the same color coding for space?

Aww... that's a good point.  My game was entirely from the human perspective, SC is actually only from the human perspective in one ship... Give me a little time to think about that... It's not critical, since it's only a slight flaw in what some board game designers used to call "the bullshit background", but I haven't lost hope yet, just need to think about that for a while.  You can ALMOST always find a way to logically explain something like this with pseudo-scientific technobabble, but it isn't immediately coming too me.

EDIT: Hmmm... Do we have anyone here who knows anything about optics?  Would these types of filters be identical among alien races for "law of physics" type reasons?

EDIT AGAIN:  Actually I think that does solve it... The filters used by the HUD read the returns of light from all areas around the ship at all times.  Exactly like a prism, the various forms of particles each return their light in a different part of the spectrum, which is then received by the ships sensors and displayed on the HUD for the pilot.  The heavier the concentration of particles, the more deep it's color is on the screen.  Tada!  (That's my traditional ending for having come up with a new field of pseudo-scientific technobabble). :-)

 

And with this... I once again grant the artists the gift of vibrantly colored space.  If I remember right, you've been discussing the "empty black space" issue at the beginning of every space game project for the past 30 years without ever coming up with a solution... I hope this helps;-)