Women have choices ,Men have responsibilities

from JoeUser Forums
In the United States , women have a legal right to reproduction .this right supercedes the right of the father and the right of the unborn child .before conception Women have the right to have or not have sex . After conception women have the legal right to an abortion after the child is born women have the legal right to put the child up for adoption or leave it at a safe drop off point if she so chooses not to be a parent . every one of her choices has true consequences .for the father of her said child which can have effects for the rest of his life (even if he didn't have sex with her ) women who have committed statutory rape . still can obligate their victim to 18 plus years of child support payments . women who have taken semen from a discarded condemn or even women who have lied about paternity can force unwilling men to be at the very least finically responsible for the choice of women . contrary to what is written in our constitution women have become a protected member of society and create a superior class far above an equation of equality .

Men are expected to pay for a women choice with out having a say , our founding fathers protested such gross injustices by throwing tea into the Boston harbor using the battle cry with out a say we wont pay . many men who are forced at gunpoint to pay child support do so with out a say in even the most fundamental aspects of their childrens lives even though most court orders call for men to have a say in the education ,religious and medical treatment of their children ... these order never are enforced .

it is far beyond comprehension that a man should be forced to lose when it is most commonly the women who break their legal contracts (marriage has been turned into a legally binding contract ) in all areas of contractual law the person who breaks a contract suffers some form of consequences , Not so in marriage . in fact the law tends to reward women for breaking marriage contracts . with high awards for child support alimony the house and vehicles .....the transfer of wealth serves no real purpose besides lining the pockets of lawyers , judges and the government .

Men need to take drastic steps to insure their rights are upheld . Before it comes to revolutionary methods .
5,058 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Men have the right to choose to have or not have sex. Men have the right to chose to use birth control. Men cannot get pregnant and do not have the right to force a woman to terminate pregnancy or carry a pregnancy full term. They did have the choice of whether to impregnate that woman in the first place in 99.9% of pregnancies. Men have a responsibility to support their children as do women. Most men's income rises after a divorce and most women's income falls so that last statement that women are rewarded after a divorce is completely untrue.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lenore Weitzman's 1985 book The Divorce Revolution claimed that women and children average a 73% drop in standard of living after divorce; fathers' increase by 42%. It caused a sensation whose effects are still driving social perceptions and policies. It was wrong. Weitzman refused to provide her data to others until, when she left the Murray Center at Stanford University, Richard Peterson of the Social Science Research Council, New York City, reassessed it. There were many data errors, arithmetic errors, and doubtful methodology. Even following Weitzman's methodology, the data showed only a 28% drop for women, and a 7% increase for men after divorce. Eleven years, many false witch hunts, dozens of oppressive measures, and untold suicides later. Weitzman later admitted that her methods were decietful .... If you can show me other evidence besides weitzmans studies i will give it a look ....
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Locamama, when replying you really shouldn't make it so planely obvious that you are ignorant. This is merely an article of personal opinion with the headline that Woman have choices and men have responsibilities... please feel free to knit pick the argument and preset one of your own, but dont be so brash as to state it as :wrong, wrong wrong' no one's opinion can be wrong...

That being said... i beleive Vic is right on to something... Females have all the power when it comes to relationships today, they are able to pick and choose who exaclty they want to sleep with, as most guys are stupid enough to think only with the penis. Of course men have a responsibilty to support the child, but that isn't what Vic is saying at all... he is saying the female has ultimate power, even if it was a statutory rape AGAINST the male or whatever... i think you have made the istake of assuming too much.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
And here lies the problems of relationships today...the mindset that one has power over the other. In a loving relationship a couple will decide together to procreate. In a loving relationship if a pregnancy occurs outside planning, the couple will decide together the route to take. Yes, having sex is a two way street. Both men and women have the options of saying NO, using birth control, or not using birth control. It isn't about who has more power. It is about being responsible adults in a responsible, loving relationship. Unfortunately in all this the people who suffer the most are the children.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
correct... i should rephrase... in the courting stages.. females have all the power... power should the be distributed equally once a 'relationship' begins
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Women have all the power because they chose who to sleep with? Men don't have the power to chose who to sleep with - yeah right. I don't see the point. Men have choices, women have responsibilites - how many single dad's do you know? Are they the ones taking responsibity besides sending a check? There is a lot more to rasing children than writing a check which usually comes no where near to the cost of raising a child. Most child support won't even cover childcare for mom to work not to mention the thousands of deadbeats who don't support their children. Call me ignorant if you want, that's what I think.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I agree that SOME women do put men in a cage by getting pregnant either through what you have described or through lying about birth control. What I do not agree with is that men will father these children and the only thing they do is pay child support. Women more than likely won't have an abortion or give up the child for an adoption. The attachement is too great for them. Women do have responsibilities and men have choices. They have the choice of whether or not they want to be a part of the child's life besides just a check each month. Women have to take care of the child and have no free time for themselves. If they do have an abortion, it haunts them. Not to mention the 9 months that the woman goes through carrying the child. Maybe you should think about both sides to an arguement before laying the blame. It's not easy being a woman.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dawn ; According to research most single mothers have intrerfered with fathers visitation of their children .....(if you like i can give you the complete list of studies) ...Men after the point of conception have No say whatsoever .... yet we are the only forced By gunpoint to have responibility ... if women are irresponible they simply take the kids away ... They only jail them when they child has been pyshically abused ..... i am not against mothers i am simply against the blatant biased shown by the courts which is Unconstitutional .....
Locamama you dont see many single fathers because of gender bias in family courts
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Vic, I must say this sounds like a man scourned and venting his anger. You mentioned that a woman has the legal right to put a child up for adoption. Well, the father has the right to keep that child. The adoption process is careful about making sure that both parents are aware and consenting.

As for why women get custody, I can only judge by the cases I am familiar with. All of the divorces that I have encountered were due to the man leaving the woman. All were cases of homemakers left with no work experience. Women who stayed at home, caring for their children should get some form of custody. Like it or not, children bond more closely with their primary caregiver and removing them from that person would be devastating. Too many people overlook the childrens' best interest and focus on making their spouse pay. I think the courts tend to protect the children rather than the man or woman. That is just my opinion though. I see this article as pure opinion since no facts were substantiated and real life has shown me the contrary.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
In most cases the courts give the mother custody if the children, and not because they are better care givers.
I know of one case in particular where the mother was proven to have abused her son, yet she was still given custody! The child wanted to be with his father, but the courts didn't care about that.
What is more important? The child or the caring parent?
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Jill:
The courts have little to no intrest in the childs best intrest . it has been proven the children form as close a bond with their fathers and that children fair better when they have contact with both parents ....

the adoption process can only ask the father if he was named ... and women (unless recieving state benifits) are not required to name the childs father.

Why shouldnt men be Angry ? when fundamental rights are tossed away like a used kleenex everyone should be outraged
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Locamama - I am not disagreeing with you that there are dead beats out there... i catagorically admit that well over 50% of the male population are jerks... however, (warning -this is very blatant...) its the stupid girls fault for falling for these idiots and letting them sleep with them... a gross, gross generalisation, but in my opinion a very valid point. Females really need to do something about the rules of attraction... I am sure you can agree with me to some extent here... for some reason, girls are attracted to assholes who treat them like shit... now, i know what this reason is, and you might as well... but, its their own problem, and their responsibility to do something about it... stop sleeping with assholes.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
edit - the 50% that are jerks usually mature, and realise they are jerks - but not until they are late 20's... some never do...
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just to toss some things into the mix. Women can and do entrap men with pregnancy..Not ALL WOMEN. But it does happen. I want to see someone from either side of this comment argue that.
Second, Men can be deadbeats, have multiple children and not claim/pay for any of them. Not ALL MEN. But it does happen. I want to see someone from either side of this comment argue that.
Third: The laws provided are abused by many.

Men do have the choice to have sex. Once they make that choice, alot of the other choices fall on the woman and are only made by the woman. She may be influenced/agree with her spouse/mate/casual friend she just sleeps with on the weekends and an accident happened, but it is a trap in that once you sleep with a woman it's like signing a waiver claming you give up all rights in the decision making process.

If a woman aborts a child the father wished to take care of, she doesn't go to jail.
If the father abandons a woman after she has a child, he can be taken to court, sued and screwed to the walls, and even arrested for being a deadbeat dad. Even if he did NOT want anything to do with the woman or the child due to casual sex in which an Act of God happened. (i.e. accidental pregnancy)

So, how is that fair? It isn't. Vanity's right in that it is grossly biased and sided on the woman.. (This is ignoring all emotional repercussions that come from having sex, so if yuo get emotional reading this..You shouldn't comment, you're not thinking clearly..aka Loca)
It isn't fair, but nessecary in most instances.
Neither man nor woman is really that mature in the long run. Many adults are children with rights to vote, have sex, possess guns, drink..
So who's right and who's wrong? It takes TWO to Tango..it should take TWO to work it out...Courts should only be there to make sure some agreement can be arranged, not force anything upon any individual.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
I pressed submit a little quickly.

The law should not intefer in the relationship of individuals because it forces ideals upon people who may not agree with it.
One last thing, Men AND Women, keep your legs closed. If you end up in a court battle over the repercussions of you having sex, neither of you are responsible enough to have the child/children in question. You're both at fault. BOTH.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well said Lunaticus.

Life is not fair. I agree that it is not fair that a woman gets to chose to have an abortion even if the guy wanted the child but it is necessary. It doesn't do anything to a man's body to have a baby. That is just one of those difference that we have to deal with.

As for statutory rape, I would be interested to hear what the law has to say about that. The guy couldn't have to pay for the child at first because if it is statutory, he isn't an adult. The law may make him support the child after he comes of age. I don't believe that is just. I think those cases must be pretty rare though.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Jill:

here is caselaw on the subject . San Luis Obispo County v. Nathaniel J., ___ Cal. App. 4th ___, 57 Cal. Rptr. 2d 843 . Recent decisions from other states agree that the fact that the father was the victim of
statutory rape does not provide a defense to child support. S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 23 Fam. L.
Rep. (BNA) 1082 (Ala. Civ. App. Nov. 22, 1996); State ex rel. Hermesmann v. Seyer, 252 Kan. 646,
847 P.2d 1273 (1993); Jevning v. Chicos, 499 N.W.2d 515 (Minn. 1993); Mercer County v. Alf M.,
155 Misc. 2d 703, 589 N.Y.S.2d 288 (Fam. Ct. 1992).

Hell you dont even have to be the father of the child and they can force you to pay child support .
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
The argument as I see it is the following:

Man and woman have consentual sex. Male Choice: 1, Female Choice: 1
Both sides are equally responsible in this matter, there's no blame to be assigned here.

Woman decides to terminate pregnancy. Male Choice: 0, Female Choice: 1
The guy has no say in this, even if he wants to raise the baby. I know there's the argument of it's the woman's body etc.

Woman decides she wants to give the child up for adoption (assuming she didn't list the father on the birth cert). Male Choice: 0 Female Choice: 1
This is an odd case probably, but the fact that it can happen makes it relevant.

Woman decides she doesn't like the guy anymore and wants him to have no contact with the child. Male Choice: 0, Female Choice: 1
The courts go this way more often than not. It is the unspoken assumption that women are naturally better parents, that they have a greater claim of ownership of a child.

...Said woman still wants child support. Male Choice: 0, Female Choice: 1
This happens too, and typically unless the courts find a claim to be absolutely ridiculous, it's usually given.

Men: 1, Women: 5

The fact of the matter is that there is one step in the process where a guy has full say in what happens. Beyond that point, he has no solid ground, legally or socially speaking, to stand on. Now, I fully support the idea that a guy should be responsible for his actions, and that if he gets a girl pregnant, it's his duty to see the whole deal through. That said, I still don't think it's right for the girl to hold all the cards from the point of conception forward. Women want equal rights to men in so many other areas... why not in this one too?
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Zooma, you summarized what my long winded statement was all about.

Also, it isn't equal rights because..(now, if you feel you must flame this, feel free) the majority of things are not equal. We have not achieved an equal society.
We're struggling as is to quasi-balance things out. I am of the opinion it'll shift things eventually to the woman's side of having the upper hand as the man did 100 years ago..
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction..We're shifting the balance, it isn't going to stop until it loses momentum. :)

Women want affirmative action, equal pay, etc.,.. Which *I* do agree with..
But they also want to be treated different than the male gender.
A woman hits a guy: He had it coming
A guy hits back: He's a woman beating asshole fit to be lynched. ;)
Now, I'm not into hitting anyone, period. But this doesn't sound 'equal' does it.

A woman wants into a men only club/office, what have you..But doesn't want to be sexually harassed.
Guys sexually harass each other, just in different terms..(though this IS the new millenium)
The woman wants to be allowed equal access to everything, but doesn't want the hassel that comes with everything..
Is that equal or balanced? Once again, I'm not into slapping anyone on the ass and saying hey baby, but the point needs to be made..

We are different. Men and Women just are not the same. By sheer definition, we're not the same.
That doesn't mean one should treat the other like a subjeciated race of underlings only there for the amusement and whims of others..

So when it comes down to Women having almost all of the choices in pregnancy, it's just the way it goes.
UNFORTUNATELY: The law is blind and should not make distinctions between genders out of stereotypes and misconceptions..But How can we fix that so that it's fair all the way around? We can't..
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I shouldn't comment, particularly with the overall tone of discussion being rather balanced and both spectrums of the topic well represented, BUT, I feel compelled to toss out my opinion, or at least my observations.

In my little corner of the world the vast majority of single parents are;

A. Young, under-educated, minority women
B. Socio-economically disadvantaged
C. 2nd generation receiving government assistance
D. Have more than 1 child

I have discussed in past blogs the lifestyle purpetuated by government assistance, and the degradation of the Africa American male due to the current system.

Child support enforcement is nothing more than an extention of this ever widening divide, ie, Support must be sought and uncollected to qualify for some benefits. It is an economic nessesity for the womans benefit, as well as a rationalization for the case managers social engineering job.

The male in this situation, who may actually want a relationship with the mother and child, cannot be an active part of this family due to the loss of benefits that would be brought about just by his mere presence.

As to the demise of a traditional family torn apart by divorce, and the subsequent support issues that arise, personal experience has proven, at least to me, that the courts are tilted in favor of the mother. Irregardless of circumstances or the defaulting party, the mother is going to come out on top, financially speaking, that is.

Revolution? Nah, that's not a solution, the children deserve the support, no matter how reprehensible the mothers actions were, are, or could be. That being said, some have suggested that a crime of passion, such as killing the Beotch, would result in no more than a Manslaughter conviction, relegating one to no more than a 6 year active sentence.......child support does run until the child is 18........................................