Thoughts on Star Control II

Oh, more on the ships...

In some cases one ship simply can't beat another.  For example there doesn't appear to be a way for the Spathi to hit a Yehat.  The Yehat's shield has enough charge to block all 3 missiles no matter how you stagger them.  There are other examples like this.  It should always be at least possible to damage the other ship.

Star Control does an amazing job at creating an illusion of balance where, really, there is none. 

I disagree about the timed game issue.  To me it added a sense of urgency, and made it seemed like the universe was living.  The universe wasn't just sitting around waiting for me to save the day, things were happening.  I'd miss that if it were missing.

1) I don't have a problem with timed quests as a gameplay mechanism, but I feel there should be transparency about the fact. I've stated this in previous threads but I guess it bears repeating that you could effectively play through SC2 and not even know you were on a countdown timer to the Kohr-Ah "death march" before five years were up, had you not learned about it from the Melnorme.

2) I agree that early encounters are warranted, but always felt the probes were perhaps a bit too annoying and difficult, which leads to my feeling on ...

3) how I never felt compelled to use the command ship until much later in the game after it had been upgraded. I am not sure how you used it effectively early on because I could never use it effectively against the Probes. I generally just warped out because it couldn't turn fast enough to track them for an accurate shot. One of my first major upgrades after getting a decent amount of minerals was to scrap two landers and max out thrusters and turning jets just to avoid annoying Probe encounters.

4) Completely in favor of having the ability to track all sorts of criteria, but primarily visited locations and some form of mission/quest log. Being able to place markers on the map as reminders of places you'd like to visit would also be great.

5) Stardock's been pretty implicit about a renewed emphasis on the planet landing experience being terrific. I expect it will probably be much more diverse than SC2.

The probes are too hard for the early game, but there should be something like them to create more space encounters in the early game before you are encountering the races.

The Spathi has an easy time with both the probes and the Khor Ah you encounter early... but it takes considerable knowledge to just realize that is the case.  The Zog Fit Pik can defeat the Ilwrath,,, although it is not particularly easy and probably also requires more knowledge than a new player has to realized ("a medium range weapon that sprays at the end can hit it while cloaked"),  Neither of these are particularly obvious, nor easy even if you realize they are good against these opponents.  I think the early game matchups should be... not necessarily a lot easier but maybe a little easier and more obvious in which ships are good at taking on which other ships.

And yes, I think they have come up with something they like a lot for the lander part of the game from the comments I've seen them make about it, so that is very encouraging.

1) I totally agree about the timed quests, the reason I didn't finish my playthrough 10 years ago was because I ran out of time, now in this playthrough I'm torn between wanting to explore everwhere and being worried about the time limitation affecting the endgame. I believe they've already stated they aren't keen on timed quests though.

3) While this makes sense, I think there also needs to be a sense of purpose to building up your main ship. Maybe needing to be more reliant on other races ships for the first part of the game as your command ship is built up until it reaches the point where it is the best possible option or maybe it can be fitout with awesome weapons that are great against one enemy but to be great against another enemy you would need to return to Earth to refit it, this would still encourage the use of satellite ships but give people the option to rely on the main ship too.

4) It would also be nice to be able to tag locations on the galactic map and make notes about them. 

5)I feel a large part of the appeal of the lander was it's simplicity, it was simple, fun and not very time consuming. I hope that is retained.

Maybe the flagship could be more of a boss killer.  It's still bound to be good against many of the alien ships, but it would be nice if the alien ships had a better balance among themselves so that the player doesn't always use the flagship because it is so much faster and easier to win with it.  In many cases in SC2 the choice is a 10 second fight with the flagship or a 3 minute long fight with the satellite ship that is good at fighting that ship.  I guess what I am saying is they should try to make those times more equal... at least with the satellite ship that is supposed to be good at fighting that enemy.

It was unforgiving because the loss of a ship was a huge blow. This was especially true for one-off ships like the initial Spathi ship. If I lost that, I would always reload. The game would have been better if it allowed you to "resurrect" destroyed ships back at your home base.

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and have things only happen when my actions trigger them. Urgency means I can't take my time to enjoy the game. I'm playing at someone else's perceived speed. No thank you.

1) I don't agree. I liked that the threat loomed over you throughout the game. You always knew there was a new threat beyond the Ur-Quan and the Zoq-Fot-Pik warned you of the Kor-Ah's impending victory. If you encountered one, you knew what their plan was. Without this, the game would have felt too easy and simple.

Even ignoring all of that, only once did the Kor-Ah death march begin on my file and only because I let it happen so I could talk to the defeated Ur-Quan. Otherwise, if I am going real slow, two years of game time. If I speed run it, 10 months. Is is possible to visit and mine every single world in the game and complete the story before the Kor-Ah begin that march though agonizing once you start doing the worlds in their space

2) The probes really were more of a motivation tool to make you go look for their source (which you can find by talking to them a few times). If you didn't then they became a constant source of problems as they multiply fast. Once you have the self destruct code, they will vanish from the game after about 2 months. They were an annoying threat but honestly once I had Fwiiffo, I never had a problem with them. They were a good training aid and i would agree something similar would be interesting. Honestly, I had a trick which allowed me to to get that code, the portal spawner and a rainbow world location all at the same time after visiting Earth, clearing the system and only going to one world in Delta Centauri after.

3) Personally, I either used either the Pkunk ships or Thradash. I really am unsure how I want the next game to run combat but I do hope we can find better balance as some ships really are easy to exploit.

4 and 5) Agreed on both counts

I wonder if this would be a good segue to having multiple modes.

IE  Casual: No timed quests, less combat encounters, more peaceful encounters, less harsh planet environments. More resources from combat, cheaper parts, crew, fuel, etc etc.

Standard: Some timed quests with verbose warnings, average combat encounters, standard planet environments. Standard resources and costs.

Hardcore: Random timed quests without warning, lots of combat encounters in hostile territory, harsh planet environments. Less resources from combat, more expensive parts, crew, and fuel. It's possible to run out of crew to repair with.

I'm not saying to use THESE EXACT conditions, but just something like that.

I like this idea.  Difficulty settings are very common these days and it's pretty clear that some of us want the challenge of the original game while others want a more casual experience.  Nothing wrong with either view, but this way we all get to be *happy campers*

This statement could not hold more truth for what our goals are with the lander gameplay. :) 

From what I see here there is mixed feelings btw timed and non timed experiences. Why not have multiple levels of difficulty? On easy there would be no time limet, on hard there would be. That way we can hit those who enjoy a slower, laird back experience, and those who love the thrill of have to finish quests before the doom timer reaches 0. This is just an idea. Feedback would be immensely helpful. 

IE  Casual: No timed quests, less combat encounters, more peaceful encounters, less harsh planet environments. More resources from combat, cheaper parts, crew, fuel, etc etc.

 

Standard: Some timed quests with verbose warnings, average combat encounters, standard planet environments. Standard resources and costs.

 

Hardcore: Random timed quests without warning, lots of combat encounters in hostile territory, harsh planet environments. Less resources from combat, more expensive parts, crew, and fuel. It's possible to run out of crew to repair with.

 

I'm not saying to use THESE EXACT conditions, but just something like that.
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Good plan! 

1. What if I wanted to play hard mode and didn't want a timer? Would I be forced into it? If so, that's not very fun.

2. Will these timed quests not be available if I turn off the timer? If so, you've just cut me out of content.

3. Will these timed quests give me more experience, unlock a special power-up, or reveal an Easter egg? If so, you've just coerced me with a reward to play with timers. I don't like being coerced.

My biggest concern is on how timed quests are triggered. If the timed quest is triggered by a date, how are non-timed quests triggered? For example.... If on Stardate 2XXX, the FooBars appear and begin to invade Blargars World, what triggers the invasion if it isn't timed?

Ultimately, the best experience comes from letting the user choose how complex or simple they want their experience to be. I'm of the mind that suuuper special things should require a bit more effort to achieve.  Besides, the difficulty modes was just a suggestion. A suggestion that can be expanded upon. These could be presets, but ultimately have a series of checkboxes you can check to customize your experience.

I know they were all suggestions. I was giving feedback.

If the "timed" part of timed quests could be turned off without breaking the game or removing/altering the quest... If timed quests only gave bragging rights or some Steam achievement (like those Hardcore modes that wipe your save if you fail)...  I would be okay with timed quests. Nobody does this though. It's always forced or coerced.

I like immersion and realism.

If you decide, coming out of high school, to just try a couple jobs here and there for 10 years, so you get a feel of what you like best, then you decide to pursue a career, guess what?  You're not going to get those 10 years back so you can use them for your new career.

No timed quest = no evolution = I'm being babied = I get bored.

Life is an adventure.  This game should be an adventure. You make choices. Choices are important. Choices guide our actions. Our actions define who we are.

Am I an adventurous starship captain, or just a regular joe playing a "have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too" game?

If you absolutely feel that you are missing on things, replay the game!  Make different choices!  Become a guns-ablaze, arrr-arrr piratey captain, this time around!

I am in for timed quests. In my mind, it is one of the elements that made it worth it, in SCII.  It took about 1.25 year to complete the quest, and you were given 4 years, IIRC. You had that feeling of impending doom, of unescapable destruction.  Your actions were all that stood between complete anihilation of all sentient races and hope.  If the Kohr-Ah were never going on their death march, what possible incentive would I have had to save the universe?  Hell, the universe would NEVER have needed to be saved, given that there would have been no threat!

OK, OK.  I'm getting off my soapbox.

We are derailing this conversation... Can we move it to the Timed Quest thread? That's where you'll find my reply.

I've also started my own replay of SC2.  I've found the following to be relevant to SC:R so far...

• SC:R really needs to track what useful information the aliens have provided to you.  I had forgotten how often the aliens in SC2 just flatout hint where important locations/races are.  Even if this information is on a star cluster rumor level, the game should track that information and let the player know if they've explored that information yet.
• The 3DO pictographs are really confusing and not understandable.

I finished my replay a few days ago.

It's funny how the QuasiSpace portals in SC2 are almost a perfect spoiler of where you'll have to go to get the important story items. Those clever Arilou thought of everything. I didn't notice that the first time I played, but it's very apparent on subsequent playthroughs.

Another thing I've noticed playing SC2 again is that you are never actually asked to fight any battles in this war.  Just 2, really, the Ilwrath at the very beginning and the Sa-Matra at the very end of the game.  Obviously, not every quest should force you to fight... and in this game even most quests should not ask you to fight.  But having really no quests involving you having to fight the war makes it feel like you are never involved in the war at all.  Like you run around avoiding the war until the final battle.  If, in the original for example, there were just 2 or 3 quests that forced you to become directly involved in the war the player would have a much greater feeling of being in the middle of a galactic war.

1) I basically agree with you. I was shocked when the game ended on a lose out of nowhere. I didn't find out about the timed portion until about 30 days before the end. That was stressful, I tell you what!  All my saves were around 30 days from the end of the galaxy, and I had to start over.

2) I've been toying with the idea of hyperspace monsters, and think you're onto something here. The role the probes filled in the early game was great. It goes with the theme of not actively holding your hand and babying you. It was a clever way of getting you to at least start on the main quest without being too obvious about it. (Additionally, I loved the Slylandro plot-resolution! It was great to find out they were a friendly race with gadgets gone horribly wrong! What a surprise!)

3)I don't agree with you there. Some ships weren't made to beat others. There wasn't complete play balance, any more than a Japanese Zero was a balance for a US Battleship.  Sometimes in war you have to use what is available, even if it's not the right tool. In a way, it added an element of challenge and randomness to the game that I hope is retained. And I never found the combat inherently challenging from a systematic level...sure, certain matchups didn't go well, but the combat system worked great for me.

4)Yes please!!!!! And have a Notes ability or something, where you can flag planets as points of interest or incomplete.

5) Thanks for the response on this, Vaelzad!  Glad to hear it!  Lander-time was about my single favorite part of gameplay in SC2.  Simple and fun will rule!

What I was actually trying to say there was that the earliest aliens that you meet should be a more fun fight that in SC2.  In SC2 your earliest fights are against Ilwrath, the probes, and eventually the Kohr Ah at ZoqFot.  The Khor Ah should be a hard fight in that situation.  But for a new player who might only have an Earth cruiser, a Pkunk, a ZoqFot, and a Spathi fighting Ilwrath and probes as their first enemies is very hard for them.  The Ilwrath is not an easy fight in the early game and the player is unlikely to realize that the ZoqFot can beat it fairly easily or that the Spathi will defeat the probe.  After the beginning of the game the fights should be hard, that is part of what makes the game great.  I was just trying to say that the earliest matchups should be made, not necessarily easier, but more obvious that "Ship A is good at fighting Ship B.  For example, just realizing right away that the Spathi will pretty easily defeat both the probes and the Kohr Ah requires some pretty advanced knowledge of the situation, you have to understand the Kaufman Retrograde to just realize this on your own, and very few people are aware of that concept.  I'm really saying that, at least with the earliest matchups anyway, it should be a lot more obvious which ship to use against the enemies they are facing.  You might even just have a base commander like NPC tell the player which ship he should be using.

I see your point.  The learning curve was half the fun there, but I understand not everyone will feel that way.  Having well matched races nearest the story's start could make that a non-issue without the need of a hand-holding NPC.  If you venture too far out, then you start losing more battles and realize you should stay closer to home for a little while until you're stronger/understand combat a little more?

Yes, something to make the first few fights easier for the player in some way.  Spathi v Probe or ZoqFot v Ilwrath are pretty hard fights for the first fights the player will ever be in.  The first few fights should be "easy" in some way to draw the player into the game instead of making them stop playing it.  Even if you understand that the ZoqFot will beat the Ilwrath, it's still not a particularly fun fight.  The earliest fights should be easy to understand and fun to introduce the player to this type of combat.  Then, after the earliest part of the game, they can be on their own to figure out which ships are good at what on their own.