The Ashes zoom out mockup thread

I'm not much of an artist but just a few suggestions:

A darker color, a heatmap of sorts of how many units are at a given area. 100 units in an area and 200 units in an area should look a little different. 

Control group numbers if assigned 

If each unit won't have an icon maybe differentiate between air and land 

I guess the is something I have to get used to.  I think you guys are doing what you want to do, and not what is needed.

Holding right click moves the map and also gives move orders. Frustrating.  Should be left-click to move the map, simply because to give move orders from the command console, it's more natural to left-click on a move order and map it.

Attack move is atrocious.  Hopefully it's being worked on. Sins of a Solar Empire you can have 100 planets 8-10 factions and zoom in on the smallest details like fighter/bombers and zoom out to the full galaxy view.

I still don't see how this is not possible with this game.  I don't think you need icons for every unit to do this.  Just to be able to quickly adapt to different sides of the map makes all the difference.  It's a nightmare organizing 4-5 battlegroups at choke points the way this map works.

And of course I said this a bazillion times so far.  And I'll keep saying it.

wow awesome! that's really nice to see you guys considering my Concept or liking it. THX

I have a question about this mockup, you want us to make something like that?

I think its already made

I have some few ideas i can take from this map and make something different, but are you talking about that same map but in a different way?

Edit: Can i give my opinion here? I will prefer a higher zoom out of the area and not a full zoomed out map.

While making it higher the units will be even smaller maybe to see the T1 units a little bigger than dots, its really cool to always see everything moving, all the destruction and war happening without switching to a full screen map like we have here. we already have games that do that and i think you loose the fun part if you do that, you loose that kind of epic game battles going on always on the screen, what i am trying to say here is that if you enable a Full zoom out map there most the the players will use that map more than 70% of the time while playing the game. i don't want that, do you guys want that?

So i think its better to keep the small bottom left map as a full map the way you Dev's have it and i think optimize it to make it better.

Why not adding some kind of breaking news to this map by splashing some kind of lights when a battles start if you are not looking at that specific location.

something like that so the player will know whats going on on the whole map and he just need to click on that spot and it will take him there.

And if you decide to zoom the map a little more of what you have it now, then use the same idea by adding some kind of light, or some kind of glow to the units, the units may be small or really small but you will always know where they are and if you want to know what kind of units are just click on it or them and a popup appear near those units with all the info, being friendly or enemy. if you see it in the map than you should know how many they are and what they are.

Edit2: I will start working on some of my ideas on a full map and show it to you guys.

@Minidump, to be honest, your previous posts have already made me write off your feedback.  Honestly, I could really care less what you want at this point.  Unless you say otherwise, we will be refunding you and ejecting you from the program by EOD tomorrow.

@ASDF

Yea, we very much want to come up with something where you zoom out and get a good idea what's happening  

The reason why we don't want to give commands from the zoom out is, as Chris Taylor said to me: (paraphrasing)

"The one problem with strategic zoom is that it makes the terrain less important. As time went on, we had to make our maps have simpler terrain because you can't really get into the subtleties of terrain when fully zoomed out."

Ashes is not a game that we want to evolve into being just about spamming out the max numbers of units to try to brute force overwhelm the players.  Terrain matters a lot and we have a lot in mind for that.  That is why we can't just just let players zoom out to see an entire map and give orders from there.  Sins didn't have terrain.

Thinking about #1 If you guys really gonna make the maps bigger and bigger than it will be really a headache to use the small world map on the bottom right part of the screen, because of the size, it will be nearly impossible for know whats going on or see the locations of your units with this small map.

The example that I take is this picture             

you have 15 regions on this map, imagine having not 15 or 30 or 45 but around 100 regions in a really big map, how will the player manage those 100 regions using this world map? this a question for the Dev's, its nearly impossible, so yes rethinking about that you will maybe need to have a full zoom out world map.

Everyone want bigger maps, many players want to get into a skirmish / multiplayer / coop games that take many hours to finish. I am one of them, or imagine the Mod community what can they do by themselves, really great things.

For #2: I am guessing what you are trying to say is to have some kind of informative world map rather that full zoomed out battlefield, just to see where you have the units and structures with information showing the number of units, kind of units, what part of the maps war is happening and who owns the regions.

damn its complicated so its time to start working on my concept idea.

One more thing i want to add about a higher zoomed out battlefield, where the T1 units look like dots, make them glow with your color of course to know they are your units, at the same time show all the units that you have on screen and put that info ala Sins of a Solar Empire, (on the left side, enemy and friendly units)

so if you are looking at a specific region or part of the map while zoomed out and in this location you have a bunch of units and fighting the enemy so everything that you see should show up on the left side. so whatever you are looking at in the map you should see the info of them.

ASADDF i  like those options ,its something to work .

minidump   to players like you keep in mind...

 

1-We are here to help 

2- You dont like  something or have a good idea do like ASADDF ,giving sugestions and ideas , dont means they will grab all you say ,but its ower  job has founders ,is this your  1 time has founder?

 

3-The concept making a game its not that so easy has you think,do you understand all the work this team have ?

3.1-I dont like holding right click on the map lot miss clicks here and there ,but thats something to work later and fix to get bether its normal at this point not exacly has we want,maybe  we can have a option to swap to other keys .

 

4-PLz just help build and shape the game with positive questions ,that kind comments isnt what we all are looking to put this game where it will be.

 

5-In the future bether you dont be founder and wait for a demo or final gameplay.

 

 

I don't have the ability to mock something up, but here's my $0.02:

I'd love to see a spherical map taking up the entire middle of the screen.  Data on the left/right.

On the left a breakdown of all the awesome stuff you want to know at a moment.  Complete breakdown of counts on how many units you have.  Simply just a counter running for each individual unit you are running.  Other data would be number of regions under control, broken down by individual resource.  All of this just there and visible without having to sort, or adjust things, it's just all there for you.

Across the top I would like to see a breakdown of the total resources that you have coming in on a planetary scale.  Fairly large and noticeable, not just hidden or squished into the top.

On the right I would like to have a very similar breakdown as the left, but it will only show the stats for the specific region the mouse is hovering over or clicked on.  Again every potential unit type you could build is listed with a number count, and the listing doesn't change location or require sorting.  Just important quick data at your fingertips.

The spherical map will show all the region breakdowns minus any and all terrain.  Just a clean view of the planet broken down similar to ASADDF's map.  Centered in each region will be a pie chart showing the primary resource icon in the center, with the circle filled in with the corresponding color for each resource type in that region.  The color of the region will be set based on the player color of the controlling party.

Control groups are displayed around the resource breakdown in a clock-like pattern.  Only the control groups that are present in that region are lit up, but in their corresponding "tick on the clock".  No units are displayed live in their actual specific location other than Tier 3 and Tier 4.

When you hover or click on a specific region, that specific region "goes live".  You now see the breakdown of unit location using "heat map" style.  Tier 3/4 locations are still pinpointed with an appropriately colored dot for your team color.  The region's resource information shifts away from the center to just a few pixels above the region you are looking at, and breaks down to show even more data.  The area on the right side of the screen just has numbers updating.

Wish I could mock this up!

What do you think about that?

http://postimg.org/image/ou4d2xfbt/ here is a bigger quality picture.

Well I like it. Fog of war complicates this greatly, but it seems generally like a good approach to me.

Yes I know this is just some kind of preview work i guess there is a lot of things to it. need to find a good way to show the info of whats going on in the battlefield.

No, this is supposed to be some kind of an information screen of all the map, to know whats going on and zoom in anywhere you want. The idea is to show all the info you need about your army and your enemy and of course all depends if you Enable Fog of war in the game then you will only see what its available.

Well if you read the original post by Frogboy then you know that they never wanted to do anything with giving orders in anyway possible, still not sure if they decided to change that.

I am just trying to help here.

Plz  apologize but ...

Why do we need a map like this dont understand this complication?

Is completely unnecessary and we are only complicate what is extremame easy.

We only  need to have total zoom out to see all of the entire map so we can fast and easy Zoom in and out , even if there are more then 6,000 units is extremely easy and fast enouth to zoom in and select the units you want.

Take or work in a map with views of regions or other information, I and most will never use  5% of the time on this map because make us lose time, we need work in anticipation of orders and be fast from the view we have in front of us.

I normaly play vs the normal ai and since its not easy, i have to use diferent tatics ,for that i must be fast so i only use zoom out and zoom in with selection units.

To help us we just need the full zoom not only half like we have now and select the units easily, I do not see what the difficulty.

We need information from the units and economics resources and bases ok, let's work empire tree there I agree, but otherwise I do not see why complicate what is so easy.

FA its indeed best exemple.

And i find a way to play with all zoom out on AOTS i find the right files  so that make my job bether to beat the normal ai.

Plz lets think in easy steps for now

How?

Let preface this by saying I like SUpCom and especially FAF.

That said, some of you seriously need to knock it off.  So here's some tough love: Supreme Commander never became very popular because it tried to be all things to all people. You could zoom in on a unit and see pretty amazing (even by today's standards) unit details, tracks in the land, amazing explosions but also zoom out and see the entire world in one swoop full of icons.  And units? Dozens. And defenses? Lots. And tactics? You could build a fortress with walls and take the high ground on a hill. And you could upgrade your buildings, set adjacencies and even add parts to your units.

And as a result, the game was often very tedious for many people.  New players were turned off because everything dies fast, there's no mini map, you're fighting the UI to keep track of what's happening because the game wants to do it all. 

As a result, it wasn't profitable. That is why they threw out a lot of the features you liked in SupCom 2 in the hope to make it into something strategy gamers would generally want.

The GalCiv forums have tended to attract Space Empires IV fans who always want Space Empires IV features in the game.  I also like Space Empires IV.  But there's a reason why it's a very niche game just like there's a reason why SupCom was a niche game. 

Supreme Commander is an incredibly difficult game to get into.  It's first 30 minutes are very offputting.  You send our your engineers to build on mass deposits only to have those mass deposits killed in a couple hits by some modest harassment.  There is a lot of tedium in there.  The units are almost completely unrecognizable. You have to zoom out just so you can get the icon to find your engineers (Assuming they're not dead from being shot a couple times).

Meanwhile, you can feel safe from the enemy AI attacking you because their big force will shoot the ground forever because your base is near a hill.  While you can reclaim rocks and trees, don't zoom out or they'll instantly disappear.

And then there was the beta where they tried to make the game be all things to all people.  You could zoom out and see the world but the units seemed to move so slowly. So they sped them up. And up. And up.   A common map will claim to be 20km by 20km.  Do you know how fast a scout tank must be traveling? Sound barrier breaking speeds. Because if you zoom out and want to give orders while zoomed out, you want to see your units moving.

Ashes is a lot like Supreme Commander, obviously. It's more similar than probably anything that's come out since (including Planetary Annihilation).  But it's not going to have a screen full of icons or encouraging players to play the game zoomed out to the entire world.   

If you want to enjoy Ashes I suggest playing it as its own game and not trying to make it like SUpreme Commander.  Use control groups, use the spacebar to analyze the map connections. Form armies so that your groups work together.  Control groups show up on the mini map and the strategic overview map.  I traverse the map instantly through my control groups.

What we do need, and what some of the excellent people have done here is shown ways to make units pop more when you zoom out.  We very much like that.

The bottom line is that Supreme Commander:FA was a good game. It had a lot of innovation and good ideas.  There is much we can learn from it to make Ashes a better game. But it also had a lot of ideas that people didn't like that kept it from becoming as popular/loved as it could have been.  The challenge is to make sure we make Ashes in a way that appeals to SupCom players without alienating everyone else.

I talked to Chris back in the day about many of these design choices.  The tedious upgrading of everything, the massive number of duplicate units (same as this tier but better). The huge sways in economy due to how fragile mass extractors were.  The lack of accessibility in the UI. (What's the hot key for building an extractor? It's not shown in the UI) Many SupCom fans love this.  Upgrading extractors and factories and all that? Makes the game deep and rich for them. 

Total Annihilation didn't have that stuff and that's one reason I liked it better. You wanted advanced units? You build an advanced factory.  You had a lot fewer units (still arguably too many, one side should have been kbots, the other vehicles imo)

Anyway, my point is that there's a lot to learn from SupCom.  But cloning SupCom is not an objective. 

Just my 2 cents from a fan who wants your input but begs that you quit ignoring the elephant in the room: There's a reason why there's no Supreme Commander 3.

Great post! Unfortunately you are going to get this kind of feedback probably from now until a few months after release. SupComFA is the seminal work in the sub-genre of RTS that involves robotic units fighting on a large scale on land. Not many games have tried to tread on that sub-genre since, and those that did failed and were forgotten. Because many in your target audience will want to compare this game to SupComFA, they will also judge it accordingly, instead of fairly judging it on its own merits. As unfair as this is, it will hurt your reviews and ratings. The forums are such a small segment of your audience, yet you will be judged by thousands or more of gamers. I'm sure you know this, and I hope that you have ideas on how to get ahead of it.

As a former SupCom player myself, I came to enjoy the complexities of the game. A part of me would be happy if Ashes followed that formula. But I also had three other friends who played SupComFA for a short while, then gave up on it because it was too much. So I understand why you don't want to do it, and agree. This sub-genre desperately needs another seminal work, another highly acclaimed successful game to combat the stagnation caused by the sacrosanct SupComFA formula and its player base. Doing so will open the door for others to follow, and the sub-genre can finally move on.

How do you do it? It seems everyone on these forums wants something different out of Ashes. Some want the SupComFA formula. Some want Sins formula on land. Some say life and character is most important. Some say unit/faction uniqueness is vital. Some think a top notch multiplayer/competitive environment is key. Some say full mod support is the only way to keep the game alive long term. And most will evaluate the game with their preconceptions in mind and make a first impression that will make or break their decision to recommend this game to their friends and play for years. So in truth you cannot ignore their wishes. I do not envy the difficulty in your task.

Only time will tell whether you can make Ashes a seminal work in the RTS genre. I hope that someday, years from now, people will be on the forums of some other early access games saying "why can't you make this game more like Ashes?". Good luck!

Tat, you're so delusional on this topic that I can't be bothered to even respond to the "points" you bring up.

SupCom 1 and SupCom:FA lost money.  I know precisely how much they cost, down to the cent. I know how much they made, down to the cent.  They weren't anywhere near as popular as you seem to believe they were.  That is why they took a different direction with SupCom 2.  

Stardock almost was the publisher of Supreme Commander 2.  And if WE had published it, it would have been SupCom:FA with updated visuals, some unit consolidation and refined game mechanics, updated balance.  In other words, it still would have felt a lot like SupCom.  But it also would have been budgeted knowing the audience size.

There's a lot we can learn from SupCom. Both from the good features and the ones that turned players off.

re the mini map.  Anyone can download the game from Steam right now, and see there's no mini map on by default. 

This will be my last time here i will talk about FA.

Well me has a veteran of TA SCFA and belong to TAG menbers (Total Anhilation Gods) still play faf and  for me, is a game that i dont belive in next generation or years any one dare try to compete with FA ,the fact its still win new players after so many years its a win every days all the team that pick up that game after gpg die put it bether then any Supreeme commander 3  .

Its a game made for a diferent players not players that usualy play easy games,there you must be smart and think because that game give you all the tools you need almost  nothing miss,thats wy some give up or go steam play FA 2x games.

Will always make me think wy a game like SCFA that was released in 2007 make everybody in next years put it has the king of RTS games on a massive scale.

How was possible make so many things on that game that now every company fight to have just 1 faction some units and with lucky multiplayer to +/-6 players.

On FAF we play by new hardware configurations 6x6 we are talk about 12 players on a map with unit limited to 1k to all ,so how is it possible that on 2007 an engine that work with DX9 and use only 2 cores, runs bether then any game out there working with 12.000 units on the most complex game ever made?

Supreeme commander 2 was a total fail, but on SUP2 i have saw the best experimental  units ever made on a rts ,and the best pathfind i saw this last years ,not even FA can fight with that only PA have a word on that pathfind system.

Planetary anhilation at this moment its the 2 best rts even i that dont like it must say yes to PA its good now.

The problems this last years on RTS games that all say its dead its because developers dont see anymore the games has a player .

You guys with AOTS earn a big responsability because its the 1 RTS game DX12 and you cant clean that all are put ASHES has next game to take out Forged aliance out and all RTS games that where released this last years.

 I going be honest,i dont know how the game will be ,but have only same units fight on a RTS large scale like this without personality and look almost all the same ,plz be carefull .....

 Big game like this must have all kind options, dont stay only with basic because wont work, but there are so many things until the and to do that i probably should just shut up

And Frogboy just want to say you have been amazing here and on Steam foruns ,and i never saw in any other game some one like you give us so mush information all the time and try make us see the true .

Top my friend  i have lot respect for you well done.

Thanks for taking the time to write the post Frogboy, much appreciated. Now get back to writing up the changes in the next patch again :p (Steam forum update post...)

As things stand though I do hope you realise that some of the criticisms you lay at SupComs feet currently exist in Ashes. Hastle/finicky to drop metal resource things down everywhere, they also fragile; hard to find engineers; they are also very fragile, units look very similar unless zoomed right in and the UI is not so helpful. (Also not sure about using TAB to change menu's to access those short-cut keys. Surely requiring an extra button press means they are not such a short cut. Thought about changing other short cut keys to ASDFG instead of QWERTY so the left hand easily moves between the two?)

Anyway, those are some parallels but we are in pre-Beta so I am still anticipating plenty of change and improvements. I.e. no panic

Actually I don't think we should compare the game to SupCom or any of the others. It seems the natural thing to do but in practise it just doesn't seem to be helpful/productive. Game systems and mechanics really should be discussed more on their own merits. 

I don't personally mind that there will be no icons. I do hope that the strategic zoom does go out further though in the future. This is because several maps, and even more in the future no doubt, have quite complex passages where units can go, with many mountains or other obstacles making paths quite winding. For example on Scorpio (large 6 player map) a spot may seem next to you but to get there you have to walk half way up the map and down again. It was slightly frustrating trying to track and follow where things went. If I could have zoomed out more then it would have made it so much easier to get a feel for it. As we get many more maps and eventually even larger ones then this will become even more essential. I am worried that the system which will come in will just snap right out to see the whole map with the heat signatures and that maybe too far for what I am talking about. A smooth player controlled full zoom out, or 1/3 zoom out, or 3/4 zoom out (you get the gist) seems the more gameplay friendly option.

Cheers. 

@Tat: My point isn't that there isn't a mini-map in SUpCom at all.  My point is that a new player, loading up the game, gets no mini map.  I.e. the new player experience.

We don't, for instance, zoom out into the strategic view map (the space-bar) by default.  Thus, a new player may not realize it's there.  Whether we make that more obvious to get to or not is going to be an important decision.

@Tick:

Thanks and I agree. Some of the weaknesses of SupCom definitely fall here.

The two-tier economy helps soften the blow of extractors being destroyed.  

Being able to zoom out further is something we want to do.  However, the problem with zooming out is less about the visuals (i.e. whether that be icons or heat maps around the units) it's the uint speed.  The further you zoom out, the more people will demand that the units move faster.   

From a pacing point of view, my biggest concern is the rate in which players access tech.  In SupCom, there is a very good progression of tech.  Ashes tends to let people access everything very quickly which results in a lack of progression.

Zoom out its not only about see units ,we dont need understant what diferent units are there when zoom out, for that we will have the empire tree that needs lot work.

If you try SCFA do you know how many clicks with mouse you do all the game i have to swap every year to a new mouse ,and here i think we will do +/- the same  clicks.

Full zoom alowed us to fast see every place we want in the map fast and easy only with mouse, and its way more easy  select units from there,i have say and i know will be like this many like me will never use the space bar to see the map we dont need it a mini map more then enouth . 

• Make the exeprience lunch a small patch, mix the files to alowed us see  with full zoom out all the square map and wait for the feedback i belive +80% players will be happy can your team alowed this test ? .

Dont be worry about look with full Zoom out we now we cant see the units look when zoom in they are already awsome.

That is possible, though there is so much to be doing it might not work out like that. Some people are coming round to the slower more strategic play, esp. since the last speed increase in this patch. I watched a video of someone playing the other day and he said he liked it as it added weight to one's decisions. If it was fast then you can change your mind and rush about. As it is slower you have to think more as once you are committed the repercussions for changing are heavier. I thought it was an interesting take on it.

I did wonder if you were going to put more of a barrier between the techs or certain units. I think it is worth trying as people will then explore and gain a better understanding of each of the units. And as you say, give that feeling of progression which is so important in games.

Ashes tends to let people access everything very quickly which results in a lack of progression.

Thats true we need fix the eco system, in the pass i already talk about Turinium i think this new power showld be  worked to alwed us have more Radioactives that for now its a problem in late games but not in all maps .

what we have on tech bar for now is only something like a deposit for mass and Radioactives, when we build a radioactive  we showld have a new advanced fabric  to build  in anyplace to dig deeper and have like a t2 radioactive .

I really like this new Turinium generator power ,and i think you guys showld think in more options to this power.