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[Discussion] Governance Leading to Overspecialized Planets

[Discussion] Governance Leading to Overspecialized Planets

In playing, I have found that an effective strategy is to focus each planet on a one resource. This has allowed me to easily outstrip the AIs. By building only buildings for a single resource and setting the planet's governance to that resource once it is done the initial buildup, it becomes extremely productive to the point that I don't see any benefit to splitting it's focus.

 

Am I missing something? Is there some strategy or fluke that I am overlooking? I am now forcing myself not to touch the resource focus chart to make it more challenging, but with multiplayer I can't keep others from exploiting it.

 

From my experience, I feel that this makes colony management overly simple and I would like some limit placed on it. Ether restriction's or penalties associated with specializing colonies, a line of techs to promote mixed colonies, or maybe some sort of change to how colonies produce resources.

 

What are your thoughts here? Is this an area you think could use an update? What strategies do you use to manage your economy?

 

**Update**

After playing tonight, I think a solution could be that the government branch they are adding to the tech tree could be used to restrict the degree of governance refocusing.

I'm thinking that researching each tech in this branch would allow you to move your civilization wide focus a little farther from 33-33-33, and would give an upgrade to the colony capital that would allow you to move that colony's focus a bit farther from your civ's.

82,504 views 36 replies
Reply #26 Top

Here's some screenshots showing the issue. In this game I'm maybe 2/3 through the lab/factory tech tree path, with a few relics, 5 starbases and "ancient". Class 16 homeworld playing with Altarian tech tree.

This isnt even remotely optimised. 1060% manuf, 1044% research. Total output = 2404 RP. Its late so my math might suck :)

The key issue is how the research project interacts - it is added as raw research before other percent bonuses are added. This means I have nearly 200 raw research which is insane.

Reply #27 Top

Quoting adamb1011, reply 25

1) Your assumption that there are no starbases really understates the problem. 5 economic starbases is easy to achieve. +res/manf techs add to it. And relics... etc. 600% is really easy to get.

Try reading this part of the last paragraph of my previous post again:

Quoting joeball123, reply 22

... if we relax the assumption about starbases so that the effect of the starbase is to increase the bonus to each output type by b (i.e. the starbase bonus is b*100% and this is additive with the bonuses from existing structures on the planet), then X = (1 + BR + b ) and Y = 0.25*(1 + Bm + b )*(1 + Br + b ), which under the assumptions that Br = Bm and BR = Bm + Br gives z = (3 - b + sqrt(12 - 4b )) as the lower bound for Z s.t. Y > X for all B > Z.

I chose to go with the assumption of no starbases for the numeric example because you actually get a number out of it without having to make further assumptions and because it's a bit easier to work out, not because I think starbase effects are negligible or anything like that. If your relic bonuses, civilization bonuses, etc also apply evenly, then they can be tossed into b as well. You're more than welcome to work out a formula for a generic setup; it'd start from this equality:

1 + N_labs_p*B_labs + N_lablvls_p*B_lablvls + B_starbase_r + B_planet_r + B_civ_r + B_uniquebuildings_r + B_uniquebuildings_r_lvl*N_uniquebuilding_lvls_p

= 0.25*(1 + N_labs_m*B_labs + N_lablvls_m*B_lablvls + B_starbase_r + B_planet_r + B_civ_r + B_uniquebuildings_r + B_uniquebuildings_r_lvl*N_uniquebuilding_r_lvls_m)*(1 + N_facts*B_facts + N_factlvls*B_factlvls + B_starbase_m + B_planet_m + B_civ_m + B_uniquebuildings_m + B_uniquebuildings_m_lvl*N_uniquebuilding_m_lvls)

You could probably collapse several of the terms together, and I may have forgotten a term or two, but the general case is not something particularly easy to solve.

Furthermore, you're already assuming that you have access to a fairly significant resource base to work off of. If you want it to be strictly better to use a mixed world rather than a 'pure' world for research or wealth, then you require b = 3 (a 300% bonus to both manufacturing and the output type you wish to produce), assuming equal non-factory and non-lab/market bonus sources. Even if b = 2.9 (+290% to manufacturing and +290% to weath/research), you still need to come up with about a 74% bonus to each of manufacturing and the output type you want. Early on, this simply is not going to happen, and it's early on when the rewards from perfect optimization are at their greatest. It doesn't matter that much if you're "wasting" 10% or 20% of your theoretical maximum output if you're running an empire of several dozen planets; you still produce enough to get on competitively with your neighbors. It's when your empire is small and undeveloped that getting the most out of what developed worlds you have matters most, and at that point in time you're probably not fielding 5 fully upgraded economic starbases around every planet with enormous civilization-wide bonuses from relics, special events, technologies, etc.

Quoting adamb1011, reply 25

2) Factories have all sorts of other bonuses - for example, at turn 30, you will have a much more developed world if you build 50% factories 50% labs, compared to if you went 100% labs from the start. I dont think this should be underestimated. It takes forever to build a 100% specialised world, and by the time you do, you are near the 600% point where it was all a waste of time anyways!

You could always build factories and then replace them with labs, in whatever build order results in an optimal time for such an operation.

Quoting adamb1011, reply 25

2) If those pesky Drengin decide you look tasty, being able to instantly convert your research specialised worlds instantly to ship-producers can be life-saving.

Shouldn't this be #3?

Reply #28 Top

I wasn't trying to dispute your math. Im sure its right :) All I'm trying to do is assert that this is a fairly nasty economic issue/exploit - and one that can have some fairly gamebreaking consequences in mid/late game, while still being strong earlygame. 

For example, about 70-80% of my worlds are specialised production, since I really only need 2-3 research worlds and 2-3 wealth worlds. Normally only one of those worlds is actually actively pumping research/wealth - the rest are upgrading. The fact a single world can pump 1-turn techs throughout mid and lategame just feels a bit silly and unbalanced, especially when you didn't take many risks establishing that world. I've seen high-class planets reach 5-10k tech per turn. Similar issue with money.

 

Reply #29 Top

The game would be better without having Economic Stimulus, Research Project, Festival and Birthing Subsidies projects. It doesn't make sense to be able to convert factory production into these other things. It also causes factories to be too valuable in comparison to the other building types. Factories are already needed for building upgrades and to produce ships. But wait, they can also churn out money, research, happiness and babies on demand!

 

Also, remove the spaceship build versus planetary build slider. Have any manufacturing that isn't used on planet get automatically used for spaceships. Notify the player when the planetary build queue is empty and there is empty land.

Reply #30 Top

Well, what I have gotten out of this is that you can build one hellofa production planet by specialization, but you still need improvements, (military, approval, culture), except for research and banks. If there are no research and banks there is no harm I can see in pushing the slider all the way to the left from the get-go. I guess it might slow down your research a bit in the early going.

You can build fantastic research and financial planets by using the slider, at some point, but you still need to build enough production on the planet to get you to the point that you can move the slider to the right or to the top, and you still need to build a lot of other stuff not involved with the big 3.

Have I got it about right?

Reply #31 Top

That is usually how it goes...

 

Step 1.

You colonize the planet and move the slider to 100% production and start building a few factories... perhaps 2-3 in a nice place.

 

Step 2.

You reserve some space to grow food and place some approval buildings and the rest become research or money buildings. The exact make up or mix depend on the planet in question as well as your current technology.

 

Step 3.

Once all factories are built and upgraded to latest technology you start building the other improvements.

 

Step 4.

Wait until all is done and then move the slider to 100% science or money and reap the fruit of all your labor. It might take some time but the output of that world will become insane.

 

Step 5.

Once you industrial output is good enough you increase the number of industry on the planet since it will mean even more science and money will be generated from that world. This is usually by mid game or so.

 

 

Where you can easily get even small worlds up to several hundred point worth of science or money a mixed world would struggle to make perhaps 1/5 of that.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting JorgenCAB, reply 31

That is usually how it goes...

 

Step 1.

You colonize the planet and move the slider to 100% production and start building a few factories... perhaps 2-3 in a nice place.

 

Step 2.

You reserve some space to grow food and place some approval buildings and the rest become research or money buildings. The exact make up or mix depend on the planet in question as well as your current technology.

 

Step 3.

Once all factories are built and upgraded to latest technology you start building the other improvements.

 

Step 4.

Wait until all is done and then move the slider to 100% science or money and reap the fruit of all your labor. It might take some time but the output of that world will become insane.

 

Step 5.

Once you industrial output is good enough you increase the number of industry on the planet since it will mean even more science and money will be generated from that world. This is usually by mid game or so.

 

 

Where you can easily get even small worlds up to several hundred point worth of science or money a mixed world would struggle to make perhaps 1/5 of that.

 

This is pretty much what I have been doing.   Don't really get to step 5 though because I am so strong by then it doesn't matter.  But the idea is sound. 

Nice summary.

 

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Nathan, reply 29

The game would be better without having Economic Stimulus, Research Project, Festival and Birthing Subsidies projects. It doesn't make sense to be able to convert factory production into these other things. It also causes factories to be too valuable in comparison to the other building types. Factories are already needed for building upgrades and to produce ships. But wait, they can also churn out money, research, happiness and babies on demand!

  This.  Or if they are used, have them only use raw production, so research and economic projects are the same as 100% research and 100% economic spending (so you don't have to mess with the wheel, less micro and clicks), and the other 2 use raw production not modified production.

 

Reply #34 Top

Well, I think an easier solution is to just apply the bonus research / wealth AFTER the multipliers from labs / markets are applied. the issue stems from it being added before as raw research/wealth - meaning multipliers from labs  and markets blow the number way beyond what is reasonable.

 

I actually think the growth project is kind of cool - and an interesting addition. Not sure how it works from a lore perspective... cloning factories?

Reply #35 Top

I read most of this and I understand what the Original poster is saying. Planet Specialization has always been a hallmark of the Gal Civ Series. I learned to play around it. It has always been to specialize several planets in one of the three areas rather than to leave your slider dead center.  I actually like the micro and I know many here do but as stated all through the forums the Micro management gets very tedious on 300+ planet maps. More tools to help I think would be better than trying to redesign from the ground up. 

 

Just my opinion. 

Reply #36 Top

I originally posted this way way back in beta 2 i think and came up with the cunclusion that the projects should add to modified wealth/ research rather then raw and still feel that would solve the majority of the problems it would still mean that you would specialize planets but they would no longer get so overpowered and manufacturing would take a less prominent role on specialized planets