Long Time Customer - But a Wary One

You rock, Jeremy!

I'm currently out in San Fran attending the build conference as part of my other responsibilities (publisher of Neowin and CEO of stardock software)  but I'll try to provide a full response as soon as I have access to a real keyboard.

Jeremy -

Exactly what would the purpose be of this scratch area, that disk-based swap wouldn't already cover?

Virtual Memory subsystems are extreme efficient about caching data and deciding which will be used when, and that includes lots of memory-mapped files.

If you're ever going to be using a file more than once, then letting the VM subsystem handle where to keep it is far more efficient than trying to have the program know when it makes sense to pull in or push out data to an app-specific disk cache.

Frankly, Photoshop's Scratch Disk (and related programs' similar items) are artifacts of history, created due to limitations of older OSes.  In a 64-bit OS, there's absolutely no reason to use a Scratch Disk anymore, and any such space should just be allocated as Swap Space.  All Windows 64-bit systems can handle a minimum of 1TB of Virtual Memory addressing (which is RAM+Swap), and most can do signficantly more (16TB seems to be pretty much the default). 

As it's 64 bit only the memory constraints  are really going to be how much ram you have in your system. 

I too loved gc2 and all expansions and still play it at times.  I too was disappointed by elemental. But feel that in the end stardock made things right for those of us who bought into elemental early.  

I can say from a brief try of the alpha for gc3 while it's far from complete it is shaping up to my liking and  feels like a true sequel to gc2. 

I honestly didn't know about the Windows 64bit capability with its Virtual Memory, and because of that I'm going to assume a lot of other people don't know about it either. Which means it wouldn't be wise to assume that a lot of people know how to do this, and therefore allow the game to reach such limits of insanity~. While I enjoy your frankness, perhaps you don't quite understand what I'm looking for? That may be my fault, I was trying to be very brief in my question and not be too longwinded.

The thing about Adobe Photoshop and there Scratch Disks, they are built into the program and while being inside the program they give the user of that program the knowledge and ability to reserve a portion of their system just for Photoshop to utilize. I'm simply saying it's be nice to see something within GalCiv III's menus and options that not only informs users, but allows users to reserve vast sections of space on their harddrives if they desire to have really insanely scaled games. Perhaps even require them to do it before allowing them to access the largest scale maps. That is, if the game is even designed to utilize memory like that in the first place.

Windows 64 bit can just adress more RAM than the 32bit windows which limits a game to 2Gb ram max and the whole system to 4Gb since in 32 bits you can't hold a bigger address range. 64 bit systems can address a lot more memory though this is limited on some 64 bit OS for instance Windows 7 Home Premium can address up to 16Gb of RAM.

You don't need to know how windows manages it's virtual memory in the main it just does it on modern versions of windows though you can set a cap on how much disk space it can use which is easy to do through the control pannel do a quick google if your not sure how. But by and large you don't need to tinker with it.

a built in scratch disk type solution really would be pointless here.

This may be of help in explaining how windows manages virtual memory and how to increase the amount it uses.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/change-virtual-memory-size#1TC=windows-7

Keep in mind however that be it Windows virtual memory or a memory management system for virtual memory implemented in the game paging in and out data from virtual memory is very slow compared to real ram so using too much virtual memory will adversly hit the games performance and cause disk thrashing.

The basic settings in windows 7 are it seems a virtual memory start size the same as the actual ram you have but allowed to grow up to 3 times the size. That will probably be suffcient.

Okay at this point I can clearly tell that no one is quite understanding what I'm wondering about. Also, while I appreciate the responses I don't even know how the game is designed in the first place and how it may or may bot be capable of even utilizing virtual memory. My desire for a huge universe is often one of a soap box fantasy that will likely not come true with ease, but let's face it I'm optimistic in always hoping for a way for it to be done. Much of your responses fall vastly short of what I'm curious about, and perhaps the key element to the advice you guys are giving is that it requires reaching beyond the game: such as doing a quick "google search". That there is so far, far beyond what I'm even remotely asking about that it's an entirely different subject altogether.

To be honest I think the issue is more you don't understand how memory and virtual memory management work and are there fore having problems understanding how our replies relate to your question about the game and it's ability to work on a larger scale.

GC2 and other games on 32bit systems where limited in how much memory they could use by the address range on the system, every memory location has to have a unique address and in 32bits you can only represent addresses for up to 4Gb of memory locations.

64bit systems store memory addresses in a 64bit number and so can represent a lot more RAM although on many 64 bit OS like Windows 7 Home Premium this is more limited than it needs to be >16Gb in this case.

In 32 bit XP I believe a single program was limited to addressing no more than 2Gb of RAM so that one program didn't take up the entire address range as other programs and the OS used some.

Now just because your computer can address 4Gb or 16Gb of RAM doesn't mean you have that much RAM attached so your computer can use an area of disk to emulate more RAM and page it in and out from the disk as needed but this is slow and can cause slow down and glitches if over used, that's why the game has a minimum 4Gb RAM requirement.

Adobe Photoshop and there Scratch Disks does something similar to Windows with virtual memory but only for the use of itself, it would largley be redundent for this game. Although the game will have to be managing a certain degree of asset management in memory which is harder in a stratergy game than an FPS because the wider view means keeping much more loaded in ram at once to avoid slow down and glitches, this is also the reason too much virtual memory use can cause slow down and glitches.

Ultimatley because it's 64bit native GC3 should lend itslef to larger more detailed worlds than GC2 which is the main reason they have made 64bit a requirement this time round.

Vanadrom on another note do you have a 64 bit system if not you won't be able to play this game at all, just a point to keep in mind before you consider buying.

Okay look Econoun, I was trying to be very nice and polite. At this point you're becoming very condescending and thinking that I have a misunderstanding when you're not understanding what I'm talking about. I cannot stress enough, I'm purely talking about a feature that the game can manage. You will want the game to manage this for the end-user. I work in technical support, indeed while Stardock does cater to those who are extremely savvy when it comes to computers -- do not make the mistake of thinking everyone should be smart enough to do what you do, even if it is accessed via a "simple google search". You want the game to be very user friendly and handle various tasks for the user. Elemental, the first release, made the mistake of thinking their users could manage the XML files to easily adjust the game to their liking. This made the developers very confident that they didn't have to make a lot of robust options that were easily accessible. While Elemental was a very flexible game, you had to be capable of knowing how to edit the XML files in order to access that flexibility, thus the game doesn't do so well as the vast majority of users did not know how to access and edit the XML files, even if a "simple google search" could have easily fixed the problem. That's not how solid usability works.

Why the italics? Because nothing is truly simple. Yes I have 64bit System. Yes I happen to build and repair PCs and understand how to maintain them, run them, as well as a host of professional programs. Yes my knowledge is not infinite and I do not know everything their is to know about Virtual Memory. There is a reason why my letter was addressed to FrogBoy, as really only he can tell me really if what I'm looking for is just a silly little pipe-dream. Please Econoun, just let someone be optimistic and ask a question without trying to step in and derail the subject as much as you have.

Since the game is 64-bit, the game can expand to as large as however much RAM you have. The more RAM you have the more 'stuff' you can cram into the game. Want a gargantuan galaxy with 100 civs fighting it out? That's absolutely possible (though the game may run REALLY slow if you do if you don't have enough RAM). The game is basically designed for you to, in theory, expand it to as large as you could possibly want.

Note that Adobe's virtual page file was to address the problem that Adobe doesn't have enough RAM memory to do specific functions. The reality is, that solution, is more or less like solving the fact that your Ferrari is out of gas (not enough super fast RAM) by pushing it with a ford pinto(painfully slow hard drive file). The real solution is to get more gas or a bigger gas tank (aka more RAM).

And functionally Windows already has this, it's the paging file. Which is why we're confused why you'd bring it up at all.

In terms of the XML, the game so far seems fairly extensible even in this alpha stage via the XML files. I'm a bit confused by the 'omg you have to edit xml files for modding'. How is that in any way a problem just because some people cannot edit XML files. That seems like complaining that Skyrim isnt moddable because you need to use Blender to make new models?

Though with regards to mods, since there is likely to be Steam Workshop support, while making mods will still require 'xml file editing' or such, distributing and installing them for users will be easier.

Sorry Vanadrom,  wasn't trying to be condescending just helpful.

Keep in mind other than the content of your posts I had no way of knowing your level of technical knowledge and the options you are asking for to manage an area of virtual memory in game seem to me to add complexity to memory management with no actual benefit.  My last post was an attempt to explain why to some one without assuming they had more technical knowledge than the earlier posts in this thread suggested.

Anyway that said I will not post on this thread again as I like that these forums are generally a polite and friendly place and not full of flame wars like other game forums.

Anyway once again sorry if my post came across as condescending, that was not my intent.

P.S. I totally agree with you on the mistake they made assuming everyone would be comfortable editing XML files with Elemental, but don't get the comparison. Windows already manages virtual memory users don't need to change it in the control panel and there just is no benefit having the game do the same thing.

RAM is cheap enough now, and 64-bit is prevalent, that so long as the engine is designed to be 64-bit, you should be fine.  I'm a little extreme with 24GB of onboard RAM, but even if I only had 4GB of RAM, the fact that I'm running a 64-bit OS means that my page file can be far larger than any modern game can reasonably use.

Windows has been pretty good at using disk space as RAM in the form of a page file since Windows XP days, so I can't imagine a reason a game developer would want to implement their own version of it.  Certainly a game engine should prioritize what it needs in memory, but past that priortization, let the OS handle it.

You might find it to be useless to have something added into the game, but if I was to drop money on the Founder's Elite package for GalCiv III -- the vast majority of my feedback would be centered around usability. Much of my feedback would likely come in the form of altered screen captures via Photoshop, visually displaying the feedback I'm talking about. Being User Friendly was never a very strong aspect of StarDock products and this is only enforced by their most devoted users being extremely savvy with how computers run and operate.

But let's also roll back a bit and remember StarDock's Manifesto... The whole point of the Manifesto was to make the games easy for the users to no only acquire, but also be able to really use; even if their system was never up to snuff. I don't now how much that mantra has changed over the years, especially with the whole Elemental thing, but I haven't forgotten it. As a technical writer, I understand now more than ever the importance of a game being diverse in its systems and user friendliness without over complicating the game itself. Windows 8 is an example of just how badly a company can screw up a good thing when they lose touch of making something user friendly.

I do not support any idea or feature that can/must be adjusted/altered outside of the game's internal user interface.

Modding is well and good, but it should not be seen a critical element for a game's overall success. Skyrim does indeed have robust mods and a thriving community that makes them, but it was still a pretty solid game before that. I even made manual adjustments to game itself using scripts, but I was capable of doing this while being in the game as I was modding it, which made a huge impact on my overall experience. Yet this is a tangent and not related to the subject matter of the original topic.

You seem to be a bit all over the place in terms of your points. Which makes it difficult to actually understand what you're trying to communicate. It really feels like you're just throwing things out haphazardly without something to tie it all together.

Note I never said it would be 'useless' to add something into the game.

Feedback about UI is fine and all and that' is something Stardock is going to try to address in GalCiv3. I mean sure giving UI feedback is great and something the devs want. But that doesn't really have much to do with the Founders being 'computer savvy', so I'm not sure what the point of that entire paragraphs is?

I'm not really clear how this point is relevant in this situation? I'm not sure how previous games were in any way guilty of this? Note there's a difference between what YOU want to do vs what the DEVS allow you to do. It's clear you want larger galaxies or such. But if the devs put a ceiling on how large things can be, why is the problem? A game by definiton cannot let you do EVERYTHING you want. There are always limits even within the feature set provided. Again. What is your core thesis here?

You must have missed the conclusion of my last post.

Yet this is a tangent and not related to the subject matter of the original topic.

Again even if its a tangent, I'm not even clear waht the point of that was.

I see a lot of confusion in this thread. You guys seem to miss the underlying reason Vanadrom wanted a dedicated page file, so I'm going to try and answer his questions without being too redundant.

Worthless dribble: Please excuse me for bringing this up again, but it helps to answer your original question. The reason everyone is talking about GC3 being 64bit only now, and how windows page files work, is because the game itself was limited in galactic civilizations 2. Even if GC2 had allowed you to use your hard-drive for storage, a 32bit operating system only allows a certain amount of addresses. Every star, planet, starbase, spaceship, and even each ship loadout needs a memory location. The developers maxed out everything in GC2, and even with a 1TB page file, you could not have had a bigger galaxy - due to the limitations of the 32bit addressing system.

The main reason GC3 is 64 bit only, is so they can focus on creating a bigger and better game. The problem with GC2 wasn't that there was not enough storage available, but that there was not enough memory addresses to handle all of the game assets.

To answer your question: Yes. The games will be bigger. There will not be an option to provide additional system resources, in order to create an even "bigger" map, but A 64-bit register can store over 18 quintillion different values. This means that without any modification to your 64bit system, the new game will already have access to several times the amount of memory, giving the developers room to not only create bigger galaxies, but also to expand the game as time goes on.

Should you buy the Elite edition? If your main goal is to play a game with an inconceivably huge galaxy, then probably not. Make no mistake, the developers have already said that they plan to make a bigger galaxy, with more ships, more players, and more assets, but right now you can only play on either *tiny* or *small* map sizes. I personally believe $100 is a great deal, since you will receive all DLC, but I am more interested in playing smaller maps, and watching the game develop. You might be better suited to waiting until all of the features have been implemented and there are galaxies big enough for you to enjoy. Check back during beta testing in May.

Here is the *planned* schedule.

March 2014: Alpha 1
(the version you have now along with some minor updates)

April 2014: Alpha 2
(this version will begin to address early feedback and some new UI improvements, tech tree changes, ideology tree changes)

May 2014: BETA 1!
(This version is when the Founder Elite Edition goes away and is replaced by the normal, $49.99 game which is expected to be priced at a discount. Sothose people who don't like the $99 Founder Elite Edition who just want GalCiv III and would like to get it early and at a discount, this is the version you'll want.)

June 2014: BETA 1A
(this version is expected to bring in the Shipyard -- the in game ship designer amongst other things)

August 2014: BETA 2
(Diplomacy, Trade, Influence victories, culture, more in depth economics)

October 2014: BETA 3
(The Fleet Combat screen)

Beyond this point: Polish, Tweaking, Fixing, repeat.

Expected final release is 2Q 2015 (April through June).

Ok. I'm here with a real computer now.

Short answer:

No need for a scratch disk.  The 64-bit requirement allows us for unlimited galaxy sizes.  While we will have official sizes in the game, I wouldn't be surprised to see modders come up with their own sizes that are simply insane.

I think GalCiv II topped out with 20x20 galaxy sizes (does anyone remember the specifics?).  I suspect our largest official size will be something like 48x48 but there won't be anything stopping someone from making a 1000x1000 other than it would take years to play.

It was 22x22 sectors, which each sector consisting of 15x15 tiles.

In-game instructions on how to reach such insane sizes would certainly be appreciated, for more people than just myself naturally. But a GalCiv game that takes years to play you say? Are you certain? Because if I recall every time I patched GalCiv II, my old games were broken and I had to start over again. Will this be an issue with GalCiv III?

Since I thing the issue of galaxy size and Virtual Memory is pretty well settled, I presume what you'd really like is a configuration file somewhere that lets you tweak all sorts of various parameters.

My presumption is that this would reside in the Game directory itself, as one or more XML/INI - style files that were sourced upon launch by GC3.

To a certain extent, I would hope that something like this is documented in a Modder's Guide or similar, that lets us know how to mess with the game internals.

Or they could add an advanced option for a custom galaxy size in game.  With a warning that no testing has been done with galaxy sizes larger than the biggest official size and you may just crash the game if you go to crazy. 

True though that it's more likely the galaxy sizes will be specified in an easily modable XML file. I do agree though that needing to find and edit XML can be daunting for those who aren't familiar with the format.  I work in system integration so I'm very used to working with XML but your average gamer might not be. 

Still if star dock don't object the community could build it's own modding tools around these files. 

The great thing for me about it being on steam is steam workshop makes mods really easy to distribute. 

dont forget that the devs are looking at galaxies beyond 48 x 48 (well frogboy says 48x48 here "and beyond" somewhere else) So the size is alread suposed to increase in the game itself before mods go at it.

I believe I share the same cautious nature that Jeremy has. 

I've been burned on a lot of games I invested in early on. Sequels in particular. A few recent examples of games that didn't live up to my expectations include: SimCity, Anno 2070, and worst of all Rome 2.  

Elemental is a dark spot on an otherwise amazing relationship I've had with all things Stardock. However, I was truly surprised at the length that Stardock went to reach out to people and to make amends. I'm satisfied with Fallen Enchantress and the direction it's taking, but it wound up being a longer investment for return than I thought it would be. All of these past experiences have made me much more jaded than I would like to be.

I'm trying not to invest in games. So, I have not yet bought into Galactic Civilizations 3. I still play GC2 to this day and it's probably the game i've played most in my lifetime. So, obviously I am excited about Galactic Civilizations 3. I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the teaser. And after seeing some tidbits from the Alpha I'm having a hard time controlling my urge to pay the $100.00 in anticipation. Hell, I'm on this site every day looking for more information. That founders vault is the biggest tease.

How much longer will the Founders Offer last? I want to see just a little more before I make that leap of faith again. Please catch me if I do leap.