Not a chance, as the phase missiles/bombers were not nerfed. And even if they were, it still would be not enough, cause now the Kortul with its abilities and Orkulus are OP and need to be nerfed as well. You can only guess what it will be next time around.

For what its worth Timmy you know i have always been on the nerf Vasari Wagon in the past and we ve had quite a few discussions about it, but i really do think 1.50 have gone a long way to fixing major issues and imbalances. The hate is gone!

Pretty sure the Advent culture bonus to phase missile blocking still doesn't work, so fixing that would go some way to addressing phase missiles.

If you would read my topic, you would realize that I did not monitor any health bars but instead let it the strike craft fight out to the death.

I havent tested build rate, but it seems to be pretty much the same.

Until the carriers run out of antimatter, fighter VS fighter duels are a stalemate.

Bombers are a different story, firepower does rule here.

I strongly disagree, Vasari are the most powerful faction by a considerable margin. And I am not aware of any significant changes to them in 1.50?

No amount of culture will ever help you against a superior military force supported by an superior economy. In the game I mentioned in my initial post, I had 90 % of the map and still could not outculture him, it just takes to little to repell culture. A few culture centers, will permanently repell any culture you can throw at them.

Advent Loyalist culture is mostly a economic and damage buff, in itself, the culture is no more dangerous than any other.

Seing that phase missiles make the ENTIRE Advent shield technology ENTIRELY worthless, I fail to see how that is balanced.

Especially, if you consider that a Squadron of Vasari Bombers cost the same as a squadron of Advent Bombers.... they just  happen to be three times as good.

1. Please start a MP game against a Vasari player of similar skill level and choose Advent. 
2. Choose a medium random map.
3. Allow him to make it to lategame.
4. Fight and die.

Vasari Changes in 1.50:

Fixed bug

Buff

Nerf

Gravity Warhead (Jarrasul Evacuator) will no longer target Titans or affect enemy Flagships. - Nerf - was badly needed as Vasari where the only faction capable of stopping Titans from escaping.
Phase Out Hull (Antorak Marauder) will no longer affect Flagships. - Fixed bug
Sentinel range increased from 3900 to 4400. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Long Range Jumps research moved from Tier 2 to Tier 3; cost adjusted. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Increased Vasari Starbase weapon upgrade time from 25 to 45 seconds. - Nerf - Orky rushing was and maybe is still to easy to do and to hard to fend off.
Vasari Loyalists
Tier 1 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to planetary bombardment damage. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Tier 2 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to Wave Cannon weapon damage. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Tier 3 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to capital ship acceleration. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Desperation (Vorastra Titan) no longer affects Corvettes; duration decreased from 45 to 15. - Nerf - badly needed it wiped out entire fleets without Maw. Corvettes were generally removed from Titan Aoe Abilities.
The Maw (Vorastra Titan) no longer affects Corvettes; max target count reduced from unlimited to 15/30. - Nerf down to reasonable levels.
Vasari Rebels
Tier 1 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to Pulse Beam weapon damage. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Tier 2 Titan research now grants a +10% bonus to mission deadline times. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Tier 3 Titan research now grants a +0.10 bonus to your faction's relationship with other empires. - Buff - done to all factions so justified
Dissever (Kultorask Titan) no longer damages Corvettes. - Nerf - done for all factions
Starbase Mobilization now only allows Starbases to phase jump between active phase nodes. - Nerf

The Vasari are still overpowered.... just not as insane as before.

With the most major issues for them being fixed now - Thanks Devs!  - it is time to adress less blatantly but still serious issues.

I say above NOT only based on the nerfs or fixes, whatever you choose to call them, but also buffs to other factions which brought them more into the fold than before.

For example Check VR TItan 1/2/3 upgrades, they are so bad they can hardly be called buffs. Now check Advent/TEC Titan 1/2/3 upgrades and they are mostly very good. VL titan upgrades while better than VR are still nowhere near the level of other factions. Starting with 2 factories saves a lot of newer or less skilled players from Vasari orky rushing now as well.

There are many factors in it but having played many skilled and non-skilled MP games, i feel the balance is pretty good. Of course some things can be improved and some things i hate ( funnily enough i hate the 2nd Free Factory change) but most come from personal preference and experience/skill with certain races. For example i think im more than capable of beating a skilled Vasari player but opposite might not be true as im nowhere near as skilled with Vasari race as i never had any interest playing them.

It still eats infinite number of targets. The dev's need to stop using periodic actions when they want to target a finite amount of units

Wow that still hasnt been fixed? I assumed there would have been a hot fix sharp ish...

It is limited in how many units it affects, but once it kills a unit, it can suck in another....

Basically, if the target cap is 10 then it can only suck in 10 units at a time...but if one unit dies instantly, only 9 are currently being affected and thus another ship can now be sucked in....

That's my understanding anyway...haven't really tested it extensively but that's what seems to occur...

I'm not sure that is entirely true. I played against advent and he had 24 carriers and a few iluminatiors and it looked as it sucked all of them instantly. Might be just fact that chain  moves very fast and it is only particle effect that it makes seem so.

Your correct in what you saw Greg.

Firstly there are two periodic actions. For those of you that are ignorant that means the action loops a certain number of times.

The first periodic action attracts the target towards the titan. This loop attracts 15/30 ships EVERY 0.1 seconds (~ to infinite) within 8000/9000 range and in a cone angle (front bank) of 1.57.

The second periodic action converts an infinite number of frigates to resources (~ to kills the unit) every 0.1 seconds within range of 1000 and in a cone angle (front bank) of 2.6.

I love that choice of words, i guess fancy words like periodic are the domain of the super smart modders lol. Superiority complex much zombie? :p

I'm actually a super smart software developer.

What about reducing the movement speed of the Orkulus to 50 % of its current value?

It is pretty fast for its size and its power. Making it slower would force the Vasari player to use a bit more thought of were to place it.

Just because they are less OP than before, doesnt mean that they are not still OP.

I suggest that you check out the mentioned Titan upgrades.... and you will realize that Vasari Loyalist actually have pretty good ones. An additional 5 % wave damage + the accelerated wave cannon VL only upgrade makes for some very impressive firepower. Add phase missiles and watch as a medium sized fleet deals HULL Point losses in excess of 1000 DPS a second to a mid level titan.

Please state what upgrades of other factions in your opinion are better than that! 

I think that you are wrong... and that you would get your ass handed by a Vasari player of similar skill level who has a basic understanding of Vasari advantages.

Guardian (Repulse + shield) + carier cap repulse ability + progen shield regen + AL titan slow firepower + movement  thingy +  ship steal + resurrect + some other CAP ship abilities you can think of + 1k heal from advent subjugator  ( = ADVENT BATTLE BALL 

Skilled advent player (player who micro well) at curent state once VL titan maw is fixed will give vasari run for their money

I miss Greyfox he used to kill my 3x bigger fleet only with good microing of guardians

I think after that we will start seeing subverters again 

I am afraid you misread my post:

We were speaking about the new buffs that are tied to the titan researches.

Still, allow me to comment on your list: 

Guardian - Shield Projection: 33 % damage reduction is nice.... but it pales compared to the brute power of phase missiles.
Repulsion is to low ranged to affect Kanraks, and bomber are not affected by it.

There is also the issue, that the Guardian is a very fragile ship hull and armor wise..... even glancing hits with phase weapons make it explode quite quickly.

Halycon - Telekinetic Push: Mostly ineffective against the very durable Vasari bombers, it also consumes large amounts of antimatter when in use. 

Progenitor - Shield Regeneration - As shields themselves are entirely worthless against phase missiles, regenerating them does do you no good at all. Better use Malice.... even with just 24 targets it will do more to a Vasari enemy than the pointless shield regeneration. 

Coronata Titan: Suppression Aura is awesome.... but it pretty much forces our enemy into pure bomber spam as anything else will fail to deal with the Coronata. Subjugation only works on frigates in range.... carriers will usually avoid being there.

A mid level Coronata supported with illuminators will decimate about anything that does not use bombers.

Resurrect is nice, but hardly game changing.

Huh???

I dont see how Advent can give Vasari a run for their money (which would not be enough, they should be balanced for similar winning changes) even with Maw fixed.

I dont see in any how Advent could ever hope to be a match for Vasari without major nerfs to phase missiles.

Advent rely heavily on synergy, they suffer tremendously when their capitalships and support cruisers die. And against Vasari they have very little at their disposal to prevent that from happening.

Add the poorest economy of all factions, and the Vasari will likely field superior numbers, too, especially after a few battles. Not to mention he will have more and more high level capitalships while you are stuck at level 4, because they always die.

You have something stuck in your mind and I guess nothing will change that so ....

Many have tried, few have succeeded.

• Vasari Rebels
• Tier 1 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to Pulse Beam weapon damage.        - Good/Average
• Tier 2 Titan research now grants a +10% bonus to mission deadline times.                                  - Useless
• Tier 3 Titan research now grants a +0.10 bonus to your faction's relationship with other empires.    - Useless

• Vasari Loyalists
• Tier 1 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to planetary bombardment damage.  -Situational
• Tier 2 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to Wave Cannon weapon damage.     - Good/Average
• Tier 3 Titan research now grants a +5% global bonus to capital ship acceleration.               - Bad/useless

I would only consider 2 of the above to be good upgrades. I kinda agree with Greg here, you are so blinded by your hate of all things Vasari nothing will change your mind.

Oh and FYI i would rather be fighting PM bombers than guardians, as op as they might be its still easier to counter normal ships.

The point of a forum is dicussion, isnt it?

I am more than willing to change my opinion about Vasari being OP, assuming somebody is making sound counterarguments.

So far, you havent.

Let us just stay with cold hard facts for now, ok?

• Advent rely on shields for their defense more than any other race. 
• Phase Missiles make shields mostly ineffective
• Phase missiles are the most powerful weapon upgrade of the game and responsible for the majority of Vasaris superior firepower.
• Vasari carrier are cheaper than Advent ones per wing.
• Vasari Bombers are better than Advent or TEC bombers
• Vasari Fighters are better than Advent or TEC fighters.
• Vasari economy is signifcant better than Advent economy. 
• Vasari have researches that increase fleet supply without increasing upkeep. 
• Subverters 10 % shield mitigation removal results in a nearly 30 % increase in effective firepower. There is also a still unfixed bug that grants ALL weapons who are fired a 25 % change to bypass shields.... damage levels are obscene when active.

Please explain to me how Advent are supposed to win a fair fight against a race that has a better fleet, a better array of dirty tricks and a superior economy on top of it.

Personally I smell Vasari whores who would do anything to stop their op little faction from receiving reasonable nerfs, because it would mean that they might actually have to use skill in the future instead of winning by cheaply using stuff that no other race can compete with.

Anyway. I think that we will all agree that the Titan related upgrades are usually just a slight boon and nothing game changing.

For the record, here is a list of what other factions get:

TEC Loyalist:

Level 1: 5 % more shied points

Level 2: 5 % more starbase hull

Level 3: 5 % higher laser fire rate

TEC Rebel:

Level 1: 5 % higher autocannon fire rate

Level 2: 5 % increase in population killed when bombing planets

Level 3: - 10 % Hostile culture spread

Advent Loyalist:

Level 1: 5 % beam damage increase

Level 2: 0.5 armor increase

Level 3: 10 % culture resistance increase

Advent Rebel

Level 1: 5 % plasma damage increase

Level 2: 5 % more antimatter capacity

Level 3: 1 additional strike craft (single fighter, single bomber) per squadron on the hangar defense platform.

I think it is safe to say, that none of the above will have more than a negligible influence in the Vasari VS other facion balancing.

Your claim that 1.50 significantly improved balancing as such seems unfounded.

HAHAHA

Everyone who knows me knows that even in old days I hated vasari and I rarely played them. Now 90% of the time I play random. Rest I play advent Loyal.

I do think I figured you out though. You are pitting one single ability against another single ability and you are not looking at how research and abilities complement each other into a whole.

As for your OP. You are asking for hard nerf of Vasari.

I am saying after titan is fixed as they said they will only problem will be bomber spam. I do not think problem with that is in phase missiles at all but as posted above in how targeting system of engine works. (Once you reach critical point fighters no mater how many you have wont do a dent to bomber fleet. It does not matter if bombers are advent TEC or vasari.) 

So instead of writing new targeting code (which wouldn't happen anyway) I suggested replacement of weapon type on bombers with what vasari HC have. That way all races need to go trough shields If they decide to go bomber spam.

Do I?

I am trying to compare the factions as a whole. If I have missed something, please inform me.

Yes, if fighers would actually counter bombers before said bomber blow half your fleet out of the sky, the issue would probably be much smaller.

A weapon replacement on the Vasari bombers is an excellent idea and would be an enormous improvement in the Advent VS Vasari balancing.

As Advent rely heavily on synergy for their fleet, the Vasaris current capability to blow any important ship out of the sky in no time with phase missiles does hurt them more than any other faction.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that on their own, Advent ships are unimpressive compared to other factions. With Advent having the worst economy, they cannot field as many vessels as other factions respectivly replace losses as easily, too. This is compensated by their synergy, that if in full effect, can decimate impressive hostile forces with only minor losses.

Which is then countered by TEC numerical superiority and waging a multi front war, that forces the allmighty battle ball to split into smaller parts, that while still formidable, can be defeated with reasonable losses.

I also would be interested in your opinion of the Disruptor Nanites on the Phase Missile platform, who disable Antimatter, Shield and Hull regeneration on ALL ships for FIVE entire minutes. No more ablity usage for any ships after they run out of Antimatter, for 5 minutes.

There is currently a petition to have it nerfed, you might want to consider posting your opinion, there, too.

And what do you think about

?

Lol buddy if you knew me online you would know that i never ever play vasari unless its a -random race game! If anything you should have seen me banging on the forums about vasari nerfs prior to 1.50 ( just ask Timmy). However i feel the game is now in a good place more or less.

Allright, I take back the Vasari whore.

Leaving the Titan research related changes aside, there hasnt been anything changed balancing wise, so how do you explain your opinion that now it is "fine".?

The Vasari are supposed to be a more advanced race so the fact that they are stronger makes sense to me. The fact that they can be beaten indicates that they aren't OP.

It all depends on your strategy but if you're trying to hit a Vasari players undefended worlds with a small fleet you're going to look like a fool when he phase stabilizes in on you. I think if you want to take on Vasari you have to outnumber him (which should be doable considering Vasari units are typically more expensive).

They are supposed to have a slight edge in technology about Advent and a significant edge about TEC. The compensation for stronger ships, dirty tricks and technological advantage was supposed to be far fewer ships, expressed in terms of cost and fleet supply. 

That is sadly not the reality: Important Vasari ships dont cost more than the ships of other races, respectivly the difference is far to small to matter.

Then there are several researches that give Vasari additional fleet supply..... so Vasari actually can outnumber TEC under certain circumstances.

On a fair map, with both players having similar skill level, Vasari have a significant higher change of winning the game. If they are beaten then it happened because they were making more critical errors than their enemy... which in the end ruins the point of similar skill level. 

Not much you can rescue with strategy when your enemy has advantages in most important fields.

You will look like a fool, with your entire fleet because Vasari Defense + Vasari fleet = Dead for anything

Outnumbering a Vasari is impossible for Advent.... they just dont have the economy too do that. TEC can do, but not enough to compensate for they overall far weaker military.

Economic power rating comparsion: (Estimated) 

TEC = 100 %

Vasari = 90 %

Advent = 60 %

Cute.....