There's lots of people that spout lots of theory crafting here. I don't feel much need to add more.

The overall strength of the TEC faction didn't change with Rebellion. TEC loyalists though get some very nice boosts in their research trees. Far better than anything Advent got in there new research for Rebellion. Learning when and where to use them seems to be the issue for most people.

Furthermore- Expecting to turtle your way to a win has never worked with Sins. So the question is how do you turn their new research into advantages in PvP battles. Fleeting up quickly, better experience gain, fighting in gravity wells you control (which includes aggressively gaining control of a gravity well), Dual BRB's. 

Really the only potential complaint is the Ankylon isn't very sexy compared to the other Titans.

Ding ding ding... If you need to build double starbases, you are most likely already losing. The starbases won't help but prolong the inevitable defeat. Plus, they suck ass anyway because they can simply be bypassed. I would say TL gets waay better faction-related research than TR, so their only weakness is their titan. 

Seleucia- I've read your post, and at certain points you just fail at reading comprehension. I'll respond in detail later when I have more time.

Twin fortresses

Novalith 

High level ankylon w/ inspire and impair

How many times have you seen these being wielded by an opponent?

I, for one, have never seen twin fortresses used against me.

I have never seen a lvl 6 ankylon that someone else owned

I have probably seen novaliths used against me about twice

Sure, you might say that I havent played enough games etc. etc. (believe me when I say I have played mp sufficiently however).

But how many times have you seen these being wielded by an opponent who knew what they were doing? I am wagering that most of you have never seen most of the above in an actual, serious, close multiplayer game that you can discuss with pride. When half the games end when titans come out and with seleucia's talk about 80 light frigate spam, why is the above 

even

relevant?

When 99.9% of games won't even get there?

TL needs early game solutions, and it needs them badly. For me this means buffing the ankylon to be high dps in your own gravity well (I have seen several good suggestions in this thread eg splash damage). The ragnarov is a threat to all fleets, even/especially amassed light frigate spam. Ragnarov will get at least one explosive shot off while the lf are closing, and thatll make the difference in a battle. Ankylon will not make any difference whatsoever.

When the ankylon is feared like the ragnarov (the real saving grace of the more or less balanced TR), you will see a balanced TL 

Seen it.

Seen it.

Seen it often enough (more than twice in rebellion). They were used in Entrenchment and Diplmacy as well.

Ok, but what does this mean? I've played around 500+ games on Rebellion and played Entrenchment/Diplomacy over several years.

This is the nature of faster 5v5 games. Many of the technologies that of high tier simply don't get used often in these games because the opportunity cost is too high to justify their use.

Take Wail, STTC and Jumping Starbases as an inverse example. If you make something too good even at a higher tier then it upsets the balance of the game. These are now in a state where they are situational useful which is more appropriate with their overall effect on the game. I would say now all of these late game techs are in better relationship to one another. Also, given AL and TR got no equivalent late game uber technology I don't see any reason to make them more useful than they are now.

If you wanted to make any argument, AL and TR should get something equivalent in power.

Also, the argument that such and such tech doesn't get used isn't new with Sins. Take Weapon Jammers, Planet Shield, AM Generators, pick your obscure research.

Huh? Titans aren't an early game solution! TL has one of the best early games available with 3 of the new rebellion research technologies available at low tiers that benefit their early game more than any other faction.

How about resource focus?!

I should rephrase my previous statements:

Have you often seen TL win through the power of twin fortresses? This is not a common scenario by a long, long shot, nor is getting novaliths out when your opponent has a fleet that can just bypass starbases. We should not be saying these are TL's strengths, because these address extremely rare situations that mostly wont occur in actual games. TL needs practical solutions, stuff that counters common early game items. I'd still say buff ankylon but ill get to that a bit more later

I do agree with you zombie that these things are late game techs, which other factions have. The difference is that the other faction's late game techs are not being touted as their win condition: their titans are

Take Advent rebel: if you nerf the eradica chastic burst to the same puny damage as distruption matrix, nobody would use that! AR is not defined by late game culture or wail (anymore) it is defined by its titan - the fleet wiping eradica. Take that away, and advent rebels just lost 90% of its appeal. Which is where we find TL - crap titan, "good" late game techs

TL has late game techs. It just should not need to DEPEND upon them to win! It should be like other factions: the titan can kick some serious butt (whether vs 1 target or aoe). Ankylon can do neither atm, and that is what really holds down TL. 

Addressing your other points:

1) Titan is early/mid game ok fair enough, what I meant was TL needs things to counter TIER ZERO units like light frigate! It cant without either a similar tier zero spam or a powerful titan. Late game techs dont mean jack here

2) I agree TL has a good early game tech that being battlefield promotions (holy crap, you survived! here, have a promotion). I cant think of any others though. 3/5 would prefer buffed ankylon

Please buff ankylon to be like eradica. Thank you

How is TR any different from TL in this aspect?  If anything, the superior loyalist corvette makes TL better than TR for early game frontliners...TEC (unlike Advent) has LRFs at tier 2...TEC (unlike Advent) has repair at tier 1 and very good repair upgrades...TEC (unlike the other factions) can get mobile repair cruisers out early if they want...TEC frontliners (unlike Vasari or Advent) can viably lead with 1 civ lab and 1 mil lab since TEC corvettes are tier 1 and modular architecture pays for itself very quickly and repair is tier 1....

TEC has the marza, an immense early game asset that also carries through all stages of the game...same thing could be said for the akkan, which has another great ultimate useful at all stages of the game...

The TL titan may be a weakness when you compare it to the VL or AR titans, but TEC has other late game and early game advantages to make up for that...

This can easily be flipped around....why does AR have to depend solely on their titan?  It seems best that factions should depend on a healthy combination of technology and their titan...TL do exactly that...AR don't as they depend solely on their titan....therefore, the solution should not be to buff the Ankylon, but rather to nerf the Eradica while simultaneously giving AR more useful techs...

You don't win with static defenses.

Again, Titans are not early game. The earliest you can get a Titan out if you sacrifice almost everything else is 21 minutes. You deserve to die to tier-0 spam if you do this. An Eradica will die to tier-0 spam if you do this.

Of course all titans will die to tier-1 corvette spam.

The three rebellion research subjects are battlefield promotions, best corvette in game and counter deployment.

TEC has good techs all the way around and a solid lineup as Sel pointed out.

Your gripe is really only with the Titan compared to the other factions. I'm feeling compelled to look at the abilities and cooldowns of the various Titans. As always with this game their are issues we gamers feel are important but the developers don't feel the same in all cases (see resource focus). It's likely they won't make any further changes except to fix Maw. 

I have been playing TL again in the last few days again and I have come to the conclusion that ankylon is still pretty much useless at any level vs a smart opponent who ignores it. 

However, novaliths were quite useful. You really just need 2. If the opponent backs off for a while because of your starbases or whatever, you can get 2 up quite easily for the price of a titan. This will cause far more damage than an ankylon ever will.

This alone redeems TL in my books. I will be playing more TL to see if this works more often

This isnt 100% on topic, but I thought a good way to keep starbases as static defenses and work for the non-vasari races would be to have them sit on the phase lanes halfway between planets instead of in a gravity well. Well, there would be a gravity well, just not the planetary one.

This would guarantee ships would be in range of the starbase for a time, but not make impossible to pass with out destroying. 

Mines could be similar.

TL can go double Marza mid late game and laugh about it.

TL can defend massed bomber/sc fleets with Titan by disabling passive enemy AOE' abilities.

TL can end game due to frustration of being NOVA spammed

TL can still use red button on Star-bases.

TL has a better eco than advent players and can use culture for Anti-matter regeneration in friendly territory.

Race strengths kinda go in hand with titan strengths since 1.50 so:

VL*         No arguments here

TL/AR*    Nearly Equal, TL titan better vs Vasari, AR titan better vs TEC. Overall not much in it.

AL/VR*    Nearly Equal, VR have an edge depending on set ups most of the time.

TR*         Awful titan, some questionable techs, TAR is less useful after 1.50.

In general newer players to the game tend to play TR due to the fact they have limited understanding of game balance and race strength/weaknesses. Opposite AL is faction that requires a more skilled player to ultilise its techs and its titan into gameplay correctly.

Above is obviously for multiplayer only.

Did you mean DLC?  v1.5 (without DLC) didn't really affect TAR, it's the DLC specialization that did...

Otherwise, I basically agree, that's how I'd rank the factions as of now....moral of the story is that TL doesn't need any buffing...

@Seleu My bad, i did mean DLC. Thanks for pointing out.

Is this just because all the new planet types require more research to go on a colonization spree or am I missing something?

It is because you can get 80 credits/s from a trade line of just 4 planets using DLC upgrades. I was eco few games ago and was up to 70-80 with a trade line of dwarf--roid--desert--volc, not maxed out either. Less planets, more development => faster eco. Expansion is less effective since DLC which is why TAR lost some of its value. Personally i never even got it prior to DLC but it had some uses for people who didnt need to feed fast and didnt want to micro too much expanding fast. Volcanic and Barren planets are now like gold dust and upgrading those outweighs new planet research in most situations.

Do you think 70 -80 is a lot???

If I remember correctly I had just over 240 in about 40 minutes in one of the games .....

I do think 80 is a lot from a 4 planet chain that is not fully upgraded, dont you think?! That was also as advent so TEC will get even more. Obviously longer chains with DLC optimized planets will net you significantly more but thats not the point of the discussion here. It was why TAR is less useful.

1. The Ankylon group shield is pretty good imho.

I only wish the "tight" formation would force ships in the fleet to stay close to the Titan under its shield and not outside... could someone fix that perhaps?

The capital ships for example just align themselves in a line, sometimes with the Titan on one end of the line... I would prefer the Titan in the center of the group and the other ships close to it, in a circle around it or something. Same goes for the smaller ships, preferable all the heavy cruisers and robotics cruisers nicely packed together under the shield and within each others range (for repairs).

I would like this, so that I can use the group shield to maximum effect.

2. The diplomatic trade and armor boosts are also pretty good.

Indeed but why satisfy with 80 when you can get more faster with TAR.

I don't play a lot but only problem against TAR would be time to get is since you need more resources to colonize all those varied planets and allocation of resources early on when you do not have a lot. But that is weak argument since early investment will pay dividends later on in gap between eco on your team and enemy. Heck you even don't need to build any extra labs so early on....

problem with that is that if ships are too close as soon as you issue order they will start bumping into each other and spinning on X Y Z therefore issue any order very slowly.

@Greg

It could be my specific playstyle but i find having strong early game ECO is worth more than expanding like mad and not benefitting for so long. Its a time vs reward question. Before DLC TAR was acceptable/good because you couldnt get decent eco without expanding asap where TAR played a bigger role ( if early feed isnt required etc).

However now u can max a volcanic to get 50c/s  from 1 planet alone with only 5 trade ports + industry upgrades on it, it adds a new element to the gameplay. Also bear in mind that some new planets are expensive to upgrade even if you rush them with TAR.

Also adding new planets / fleeting becomes so much easier and you ll still get your 200c/s as advent anyway which is what your aim is. Tec income would depends on upgrades/sb spam ofcourse. Additionally you ll alwyas have your titan first vs enemy eco whos mass expanding with/without TAR, which is a plus. Its hard to explain, i suggest you try it one game and see how you get on.

I do upgrade my planets to trade boost thingy as well but i only start doing that after logistic slots are taken and I know what planet is going to be for. Heck I buy 2 HW population upgrades before my capital ship is build

I don't really want to derail a productive discussion here, but I just have to respond to Seleucia's ridiculous post:

Reading comprehension Seleuceia... Nowhere in this post does it talk about anybody's skill level... I'm still not sure how you interpreted it as a jab about your ability. It simply states that since you have played less games than me since the patch (FACT), I have more authority when I say vasari rebel is hardly played (more time in lobby, game, etc). Heck, even some random new player who has played a lot would have more authority than on this 90% of  the "skilled"...

#SeleuciaLogic

If I go play one game of sins and see all 10 players are using Advent Loyalist, does that mean that is the most popular faction?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

"The larger the margin of error, the less confidence one should have that the poll's reported results are close to the "true" figures; that is, the figures for the whole population. Margin of error occurs whenever a population is incompletely sampled."

Since I have a MUCH larger sample size from which to gather data, my results have a lower margin of error than yours, making my claims more likely to be accurate (since it seems you hardly play any multiplayer). In fact, your margin of error is probably so high you might as well just say Vasari Loyalist is the least popular faction... 

??? Last time I checked, explosive shot deals double the damage of scattershot. You also seem to forget that explosive shot is most effective as a "first strike" ability, which is the moment when the ragnorav first jumps in and the enemy fleet has no time to do its fancy micro (huge range) and has no shield mitigation. 

Yeah, you are completely right on this point. 

What is this BS about ragnoravs dying to mass LF? I grow tired of these claims about your/other's amazing micro prowess... To repeat a statement that you made earlier:

"Just because your observations of player habits are different from mine doesn't mean my observations are wrong..."

Whenever I see ragnoravs being brought onto the field, they usually rape masses of LF, flak, LRF, etc (anything low hp), even at level 1! In fact, the above comment about you defeating ragnorav with pure LF seemed so ludicrous I tested it with 250 supply of cobalts and 1 titan... The LFs' had all tier 1 upgrades while the Ragnorav had zero. Heres how it went down:

I micro the cobalts around the titan, taking great care to avoid the main gun. As a result, it only gets one instance of explosive shot (beginning, hits only 5 cobalts). The cobalts slowly deal damage to the titan while being blasted by its flak and gauss. The Ragnorav, after being brought down to 30% health, proceeds to level up to 2 and then rapes the cobalts... They could barely beat the health regen. I did this test three times and the results were consistent each time... I can provide replays, if you don't believe me.

Keep in mind a skilled player would probably at least got the tier two health upgrades for titan... and have a supporting fleet with hosiokos and frigates. 

I challenge anybody to upload a replay of themselves defeating a ragnorav with LF with comparable fleet supply/upgrades... it simply cannot be done. Period. I don't care how good your micro is, as long as the titan player doesn't do anything stupid, the cobalts will lose every single time. 

When did I ever argue TL was underpowered? You constantly seem to set up these straw man attacks against me, attacking positions that I have neither stated nor supported, all the while ignoring my main argument. I never even mentioned tec loyalist in any of my above posts. I was simply refuting your view that the tec rebel titan is the worst in the game, which is just an outlandish claim. ALso, the superiority of TEC HP and armor IS a relevant factor, as their cheap cost offsets the main weaknesses of the Ragnarov: its low survivability.  

You are correct about the Kultorask being a tank. I typed without thinking. But you couldn't be more wrong in the latter half of your statement. ALL titans force a tech change toward heavier ships, whether they are carriers/caps/vettes/etc. Maybe not the ankylon, but thats a different story. Also, dissever is a level 6 ability. That means VR titan has zero (nano leech + gravity doesnt count) damage AOEs.

Even AR/AL/VL titans are vulnerable to bomber spam and corvettes, so your point in the 2nd paragraph is irrelevant. I would even argue that Ragnarov is probably more useful in chasing down carriers than any other titan (except vasari), because of snipe and explosive's huge range...

You misunderstand me. My point was the devs should devote their time and energy to reducing the huge gap between VL titan and the others, instead of wasting their time to fix the extremely small gap between x,y,z titan.

Also, I meant Tec Rebel, not Loyalist.

Hi Sin, i agree with everything you say apart from your assesment of the Ragnarov titan. Its a trash titan mainly used by newer players to the game. Its easily the worst titan in the game based on current balance.