hakkarin

The fact that outposts cost population makes them largely useless

The fact that outposts cost population makes them largely useless

I understand why it costs population to create cities but why does the same apply to outposts?

I don't see any obvious benefits to creating outposts if they cost population just like cities do.

I think there should be 2 kinds of pioners. 1 type that builds cities and costs population, and 1 type that builds outposts and doesn't cost population.

I really hope a patch or something will make this happen. And if it won't, can't somebody mod this or something?

63,116 views 37 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting greggbert, reply 25
Is population really that rare of a resource?  I always have a city that's near maxed out.

I never have a city that is maxed out because I just queue another pioneer. In fact if one were to play seriously they would queue pioneers such that they never had a city over 30 pop (except briefly to level each city to the next level).

Having said that I agree that I usually have a few cities which have more pop (potentially stored in queued pioneers) than they need so letting some of the pioneers finish building makes sense. Even then though I don't usually have enough excess pop/pioneers available for me to build outposts until late game.

Reply #27 Top

Kingdoms can have the +2 city growth spell. It's Life, so Empires don't have it. That's probably the reason for the different experiences regarding growth.

Reply #28 Top

OK, for those looking for an alternative to using Pioneers to build Outposts (besides Arcane Monolith), here ya go!

Based on a few discussions, I've created a very simple mod that adds the Build Outpost ability to Scouts.

In this mod, I've set the Population cost for Scouts to 4 (x3=12), as a happy medium to offset the new ability, per a few suggestions I've read.  So if you want to try it out and see how this works, see this thread:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/446427/page/1/

Requirements can certainly be changed in future versions, but I went with Brainjuggler's suggestion r.e. pop cost for now.  Comments should probably be made in the above thread, but I just wanted to point out that it was available, for those looking for another option.

 

BTW, I have a more extensive mod that creates an 'Engineer' type unit among other things, but the new version needs to be finished (I'm off in questland at the moment).  That being said, creating 'Engineer' type units can certainly be done, but then there is the "Will the AI use the engineers" issue... We already know that the AI builds scouts!

 

I figure that this is the quickest fastest way to check game balance, by making available for testing a 'lower population cost' unit which can be used to build Outposts.  If it's overpowering, I'm sure I will hear about it soon enough. 

And it's a mod, so you can always remove it later, if you are so inclined to try this out.

Reply #29 Top

Some of this has been said in various ways in replies, but I don't think there has been a clear statement of the way I look at. I completely disagree with this statement: "The fact that outposts cost population makes them largely useless."


The addition of a population requirement in one of the updates was an excellent innovation that made the game much more fun. You now have a reason to focus on building a town to level 5 quickly and to take a +3 population upgrade along the way. This means that you have a reason to focus on building consulates. 


Further to this point, as mentioned in several places, these outposts are critical for resource gathering and also for, on occasion, providing mana/combat upgrades in a tough border situation. If you want to make a mega city, you want few cities and many outputs. All those resources then feed to a single city.


In early game, you now have a reason to specialized one of your cities as the "population sacrifice" center. Usually, for me this is a level 2 military city.


The whole game got infinitely more fun when this population innovation was introduced. The city choice system means much more.

Reply #30 Top

Exactly near the end of the game I can build an unlimited amount of Pioneers. And even before then, I still drop Outposts. The population is well worth the increased Iron or Crystal per turn.

Reply #31 Top

Cities are clearly more important, but once all the best city sites are gone it's definitely worth building Outposts to claim resources (not all of them are near city sites), and to increase your borders (-15% unrest for joined up cities to your capital; it's VERY annoying when the AI builds its Outpost between two of your cities; many strategic spells can only be cast in your borders).

The upgrades are not to be sniffed at, either. I build High Towers quite a lot for the +1 zone (more efficient use of of each Outpost), but I like Stables as well for the movement bonus. If you have a couple of Stables Outposts in the middle of your road network it becomes possible to zip mounted troops from one side of a medium sized empire to the other in one turn, which is great for responding to invasions, making maximum use of your best stack, getting reinforcements, etc.

In terms of the population cost I generally "pick on" one or two cities which are close to their maximum population anyway and then farm them for pioneers. Assuming they're at the highest population level they are going to achieve then the opportunity cost is nearly zero.

Reply #32 Top

I also, given a pressing need for a Pioneer, pull it out of a Conclave; I think the level increases are the weakest from that city-type.  

Reply #33 Top

Actually, if you do not use the pioneer exploit, there's always a city that can lose the 30 pop without slowing progress.

This whole thread proves we are all guilty of using the exploit  >_>

Reply #35 Top

Don't worry, if you play the game properly you won't use it anyways, so it's safely ignored. 

Reply #36 Top

Figured. I didn't play beta at all so I missed out on all the tricks. Thankfully Stardock emailed me letting me know the released LH. I fell off during the FE Beta's. Anyway way off subject. IMHO I think that pioneers are good they way they are. I have no real issues with population and I do drop a lot of outposts. There is definitely more pressing matters. 

Reply #37 Top

Quoting FatherAntics, reply 34
I still have no clue what the pioneer exploit is.

The pioneer exploit refers to the fact that when you order the production of a pioneer, thirty population is subtracted from your city's current population. If you subsequently cancel that pioneer, that thirty population is returned to the city. Since city growth is partially dependent on its population, you can add pioneers to the production queue to keep the city population below the food limit (and potentially keep the population low enough to allow for the maximum possible growth in a given city) and then prevent the pioneers from completing their training, thereby storing population beyond what the city is really capable of supporting, which can potentially mean that you can rapidly boost the level of your cities each time that they gain a sufficient amount of food to reach the next level simply by cancelling the training of a bunch of pioneers. Then you would add in a new batch of pioneers, bringing your city population back down so it grows faster, allowing you to do this again the next time you have enough food to increase the level of the city.

As for the subject of the population cost making outposts not worthwhile, I would tend to say that population has little enough value to me as the player that expending thirty of it on an outpost isn't that much of a problem. In most of my games, I'll have at least one or two cities that don't have the food to advance to the next level but do have the population to allow me to churn out a few pioneers, so those cities will build a pioneer as I need them, unless there's something I consider more useful that they could be building instead. Cities which have the food to advance to the next population level are allowed to grow naturally to that population level unless I need the pioneers quickly or unless training the pioneers wouldn't significantly increase the time it takes the city to advance a population level (note that growth due to food is essentially max(1, min(3, food_surplus_%/100)), so if you're relying on food for growth a Pioneer unit sets you back at least 10 turns for the next population level, unless you're taking advantage of the exploit described above). Since I usually have a city or two which cannot reach its next population level, I usually don't order pioneers in cities which can reach their next population level because I usually don't need many pioneers all at once and would usually rather have a city advance to the next population level than have a spare pioneer, nor do I make use of the exploit described above to hasten my city growth as I don't think it's worthwhile (it's a single-player game, and the AI isn't so strong as to make me need to abuse exploits to defeat it, so I don't see any reason to bother with ordering and cancelling pioneers to gain a slight growth advantage). If I don't have a city which cannot achieve its next population level, then it's a matter of which city type I need to advance more as to where I get my pioneers from, and that depends entirely on the game type I'm playing.

As for whether or not Outposts are sufficiently worthwhile compared to cities to justify expending a pioneer to build an outpost - that depends on the quality of the settlement locations available to me. A 1/3/0 site with no nearby resources isn't going to tempt me very much if I can grab a couple world resources somewhere else with an outpost unless the 1/3/0 site is in a strategically valuable location. On the other hand, it would take a lot of world resources to make me pass up a 3/3/3 settlement site temporarily just so I could put down an outpost and grab the resources (note - this depends greatly on my own needs for resources at the time - if it's the only crystal crag I've found on the map, I might just take it instead of the 3/3/3 settlement with the pioneer I have in the area even if there aren't any other resources nearby, and send a new pioneer out to grab the 3/3/3 location later, but that also depends on how far away the crystal crag is from the settlement site, the monsters in the area, and whether or not I think the AI might be coming to plant a city or outpost in the area, as well as whether or not I'm intending to make use of crystal items on my units any time soon). I do think that outposts are a bit too weak at holding the land they claim, as cities can push their borders away and they don't have even a single unit of militia serving as a garrison even with all the upgrades, meaning that anything can take your outposts away even if the unit is of as little combat value as a pioneer is, unless you happen to keep an army of some kind in the area, and while the bonuses outpost upgrades offer are useful, I don't generally find it worthwhile to tie up a city with the construction unless I have nothing better for that city to do, especially as it's very easy to take an outpost and I'd rather not allow my enemies to gain the benefits of a mostly-upgraded outpost when I'm not in position to stop them from taking it.

In short, I view population as a more or less worthless resource except in that it gets me occasional special city structures which are very variable in value, and in that it limits the rate at which I can expand my empire, though rarely as much as the surrounding monsters do. Thus, I don't particularly mind spending 30 population on an outpost, though due to outposts' lack of security and lesser ability to hold ground, I'd sooner make a city. Since population has nothing to do with income, prestige, research, production, or your maximum army size, and only affects your expansion (slightly, because usually I'm more limited by monster presence than by pioneer production) and access to a few special city structures, it isn't a resource I'm overly concerned about expending.