Finally, don't assume trolls act the way they do just because they are on the internet...

I troll people all the time in real life...I troll my friends, I troll total strangers, I troll my students (*GASP*), I troll troll troll every day...

The internet isn't the only place where one can get anonymity...additionally, one doesn't need anonymity in order to reach the "troll goals" like getting a rise or entertaining people...trolling friends (or people you know) is just as fun/fulfilling....

Was there ever a time you said "strange things" abnormally loud in a restaurant just to troll the people next to you?

Was there ever a time you drove really slow cause the person behind you was obviously in a hurry and was tailing your ass?

Was there ever a time you made a comment while two friends had a heated discussion just to stir the pot?

Most people have troll tendencies or do troll things sometimes...it is simply part of being human...

Some humans just get more of a kick out of it or are far better at it...not any different than when some people are more prone to arguing/debating, more likely to blame someone/something else other than themselves, more likely to embellish a story, etc....

And just to add...

The forums [and sites] are for the enjoyment of all, and not for the few at the expense of the rest.

When a user adversely impacts upon the enjoyment of Stardock's sites by others his access is removed.  Call it 'troll management' ..... or call it 'getting rid of idiots'.  I'm happy either way...

Some things are simply indefensible.

There can be reasons, but not excuses...

There has been a trend lately in the UK for people to go onto Twitter and rant about subsidising all the spare rooms that benefit claimants are occupying.  I don't know if that's trolling or whatever, but it's really bad form to go demonising the poor for being able to use Twitter, for having a spare room through no fault of their own, and so on and so on.

And the UK government has basically created this rift between the people who work and the people who don't, hoping to use it for their own political ends.  I think it will blow up in their face but in the meantime things are ugly and getting much uglier as time wears on.

To me personally, everything you just stated is something only someone wanting to be difficult to deal with would do.  Everyone might take out a bad day/week on someone sometime, but to actually get "fun/fulfillment" (as you put it) out of "trolling" someone is just being a pathological asshole in my opinion.  I would guess such a person is likely extremely unhappy with themselves and/or their circumstances and therefore continually seeks enjoyment at another person's expense.

I'm sure there are examples of me having "trolled" someone somewhere, but I believe I can honestly say that I've never done so with the goal of "fun/fulfillment" in mind, nor has any trolling on my part (if I can even be accused of some) resulted in my feeling fulfilled.

Have you ever pulled a prank on someone before?  Why do people prank each other?  BECAUSE IT'S FUNNY...and most pranks don't actually bring the "victim" all that much harm...

But pranking, just like trolling, has a line that some cross but most don't...there's a point where the prank or trolling is just downright mean and truly hurtful...that's not the level I'm playing devil's advocate for, and it's those people that really do have all the stereotypical problems of being "losers" and "having nothing to live for"...

The problem I see is that harmless trolling that doesn't hurt (or even really bother) anyone is instantly being seen as the act of someone who is a crazy, lonely psychopath cooped up in their basement...that simply is not the case...

There's really only two types of trolls...

Ones who have already been removed from the site...

...and ones who have not been removed from the site.....yet.

Or put another way....

You are either an idiot child TRYING to be funny...but failing...

...or you are an idiot child trying to be nasty...and succeeding.

I think I can remember removing people many years ago who thought they were being 'funny' whilst making references to 9/11.   The issue with assuming you are funny is if you cannot read your audience you quite likely are not.  You're only actually 'funny' through your own naivete.

Oh, and 'harmless trolling' is an oxymoron.

It's a  like stalking was 15 or 20 years ago and to be honest, until there is such an instance that brings a huge public outcry (like Rebecca Schaeffer in 1989), nothing will be done or can be done by the law. Even in that case, I personally met a man whose mother was stabbed 39 times outside of the Chicago courtroom she was waiting to go into to have a PFA extended against her own stalker but it was the celebrity case that spurred the laws and changes to the laws.

The stalker laws themselves aren't perfect even though there is often more 'tangible' evidence to work with than there is in the 'virtual' world of the internet. 

Even if you took away a persons anonymity, you still have to have laws in place that are specific to the internet/virtual world to enforce and the people to enforce them. A lot of big cities can barely handle their current influx of 911 calls, then add to that every person who feels they have been threatened over the internet... How do we even begin?

I feel for you Brad. I really do.  I discovered that men have an ever harder time trying to get help from the law because we are 'men' and are supposed to or are expected to 'handle' these situations and not take the threat so 'seriously'. It's unnerving.

You may not ever get "anti-trolling" laws...however, it would not surprise me if a high profile civil case related to trolling got people thinking and taking action...

For example, the story that Brad shared where a Jew (I think?) was mailed a box of ashes is the kind of thing that I can potentially see going to court...it wouldn't be the first time that someone sued because of distress and such, and if such a civil suit did occur and awarded the plaintiff amply, I can easily see that affecting society...once you have a precedent, you don't necessarily need "official" things like laws or regulations to get the results you desire....

Put another way, you don't need anti-trolling laws to curb trolling (or at least most of it)...

Let us consider these forums as an example....imagine (if you can) these forums without moderators...so if we have a troll, you can't just ban them or remove their account....so, what would happen?  Let's neglect spammers and the like and focus solely on just trolls...

Well, some might argue that the trolls would grow exponentially and the website would be overrun by trolls...but honestly, I don't think that's what would happen to these forums...

Look at this thread...take out all of Jafo's and Frogboy's posts, and you still have a thread with a lot of people very much so against trolling (on the web or otherwise)...the point is that the culture of these forums doesn't depend on the moderators....it's not like Jafo is a one many army standing against all trolls...the majority of people here on these forums don't like trolls either and look at them with disdain....

Monk and PoSmedley didn't need a moderator to get them to speak out against my post "defending" trolling....and if a troll were to come on here and really try to troll this thread, many posters would ignore them...the seasoned posters aren't going to "feed the troll" by getting pissy or responding...at most you might get a few curt posts telling the troll to go elsewhere...in short, the community here does not support trolling, and thus I would be very surprised if trolling proliferated on these forums even if moderators weren't doing their jobs...

I do concede that you would see more short bursts of trolling...but I think the community would "starve them out" so to speak and such trolling would quickly disappear (as in the troll would simply move on)...of course I don't have proof of this, it's just a theory...

However, I can say with certainty that many trolls on the Sins forum (which does not seem to be regulated very much) do in fact "starve" without the need for moderators getting involved...there is a reason why the modding section of the forums hardly ever gets trolled, and that is because the modding community simply does not tolerate it...trolls there are ignored and shunned...put another way, trolling the modders "isn't fun"...

Trolling the MP crowd however works extremely well because they will "entertain" the trolls by responding...put another way, the troll can easily "get a rise" out of the MP crowd...

If the culture of a forum does not make trolling "fun", the trolls will go away...with or without moderators, these forums have a culture that makes them a very poor target for trolling...now I wasn't here when these forums started so it may be that strict moderating made that culture in the first place, but ultimately I see these forums as a prime example of "democracy policing itself"...

More to the point of TBS gamesites having less trolling, those sites simply have more serious cultures that focus on legit strategy discussions, modding, etc....trolls simply starve on those sites because they "audience" just doesn't take the bite...trolls are ignored and the community polices themselves...

I understand that not all trolls can be ignored and that independent of trolling, we need moderators to deal with spammers and such, but most trolls can be easily starved -- it simply takes a strong community that polices itself...

Jafo, if you are allowed to answer this question....

How often or how many people do you have to boot because of "trolling" (so not spamming or really illicit activity) now versus, say, 5 years ago?  versus when the forums started (don't know when they started or which one came first)? 

Honestly I don't care about numbers as much as I'm interested in trends...did it start out bad and then slowly get better, was it a non issue at first and then grew to become a problem, etc....

It is my experience that SD's forums are a hell of a lot more tolerant than most...to be fair, I speak from a fairly biased standpoint since I spend far more time around gaming forums which, well, aren't exactly known for their intellectual conversations about the real world...

I suppose it's a matter of perspective...compared to EA this place is like anarchy, compared to 4chan this place is like a fascist regime...

It's neither/nor...

There have been times when "things went wrong" with Stardock's products/software which attracted new instances of trolling, so in reality the numbers come and go.

When Wincustomize.com started [for example] most of the user base were simply migrants/refugees from other skinning sites [mostly skinz.org] and already had a social rapport.  The vocal 'trolling' then was in reaction to the concept of a commercial company [Stardock] hosting/managing a skinning site when supposedly all before had been seat-of-the-pants 'amateur' sites.   That was all ill-founded as without commercial 'backing' WC would have long been the same as all the others.... pretty-much dead in the water.

Stardock's gaming sites were/aren't immune from backlash 'trolling' after perhaps a poor reception of a game release [could be worse...could be Maxxis at the moment], and yes, trolling of legitimat complaint is slightly more tolerated than some other places....there's always going to be a conflict of action/resolution when a troll may also be a customer.  I must add there have been utter idiots I have personally offered to pay-out [as customers] so I can rid our world of them, customer or not.

Overall, the frequency of 'troll removal' has dropped...

the_Monk .... I'm not 'the moderator' .... I'm just probably the most 'visible' as I've been doing it the longest [regularly]...

This is the trolling on SD's forums I'm most familiar with...I take it then that the trolling on non-game related forums SD has is essentially non-existent?  It certainly would make sense...I see mods/devs in the (coming from Sins forums) "off-topic" threads all the time but hardly ever in game threads (unless it's a technical issue)...

No...a lot of that can be the policy of cross-posting of various forum sections to other or all sites, in which case such sections as 'off-topic' are seen by more than just the single forum moderator who may be predominantly only at, say, SOSA.  Much of the specific gaming threads/topics tend to concentrate on their own topic.  It's often only the general-interest threads/forums that a wide enough audience that can include trolls looking for targets.

I'm sure that if you're looking for examples of trolling re dissatisfaction with a product/game all you need to do is Google 'Maxxis' as currently they are in a world of hurt....so much so I really don't want to know...