Some General Questions

Hey guys, I played Sins way back when it was brand new, loved playing over LAN with friends, against AI, etc. I would like to get more serious about playing, though, and I've been poking around the forums reading up on specific strengths/weaknesses and techniques of how to play. I generally play TEC Loyalist and I move into a very strong economic position then move out with a massive fleet later in the game. It works against my friends, but I'm fairly sure they're a lot more "casual" than I am, and are not indicative of what I would face against the interwebz.

First question: should I be switching to TEC Rebels? I've heard they're more aggressive and they are seeing more "competitive play". I know it's a loaded question, just interested in opinions.

Second question: Where can I find good replays!? I've searched and googles, but all the ones I find are out of date (wrong version). I own both Trinity and Rebellion, but even the top listed replays on the Sins site come up as "Old Version" when I try to play them. It's quite annoying... Is there any reliable site that houses good match play?

Third question: Everyone is upgrading their metal extractors...am I the only person who has a constant crystal shortage? I never run out of metal, and I never research the upgrades to the extracts until much later in the game when I'm last in Metal production and the red number bugs me :) I'm ALWAYS short credits or crystal, never metal (VERY rarely).

[EDIT]Fourth question: I have never gotton a concrete answer about Trade Ports/facilities. I know you're supposed to make them into a long continuous line, and the game says it will "Show your longest trade route" but...I've noticed, if I build two trade ports in adjacent systems that have phase lanes going to a single system with a trade port...the "longest trade route" will take the shorter route. Should you be "trading up" only in systems along that route, or is it worth the investment to build trade ports/space stations outside of that route as well? Will it affect my income positively or negatively? Thanks. [/EDIT]

Fifth question: I'm trying to get more input on my startup sequence in a new game. This could be a whole thread unto itself, I know, but I hate forum spamming :) I generally start in this order:

- 3 Scouts (I've been working on manually scouting with them...it does seem to be much more efficient...why does the AI backtrack so much!?)

- Capital Ship Factory - Akkan Battlecruiser

- Homeworld Metal/Crystal extractors

- Civic Lab

- 4 to 5 Cobalt Frigates

- As the Akkan is completed, I generally have about 3 Cobalts ready to go. I ship them out to the nearest Asteroid, clean out the Siege frigate and take the planet while dusting off the other Cobalt. I scuttle the Cap Factory for a second Civics center.

- From this, generally, I upgrade my Crystal extractors, research Ice or Volcano depending on what I see coming up next, get Trade Ports going, get a Military Lab and grab Corvettes and Repair Bays. My Akkan/Cobalt fleet will fan out taking a few more planets while I get the Civilian Infrastructures up and going, along with a few more labs. Etc etc. I just...I'm ALWAYS out of credits and crystal. I watched a Youtube video of Devs vs Modders...or was it Pros vs Modders? I don't remember. I was watching a TEC faction play, and from the early game on, he seemed to have PLENTY of credits, AND a bigger fleet than I did. Maybe I'm over-researching, but I like a nice balanced research. And he went for Trade Ports much later than I did. I'm scraping for Trade Ports the all the way up to mid game, sitting around waiting to get 900 credits to build the damn things.

Anyway, it all boils down to I'd like to see more "high level" replays or suggestions to get faster, fleet up faster, suggestions on getting my econ up faster, etc etc. Everyone just seems to be outdated and won't run.

 

Sorry for the wall of text, THANK you for your input, and I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.

7,660 views 10 replies
Reply #1 Top

I generally play TEC Loyalist and I move into a very strong economic position then move out with a massive fleet later in the game.

Yeah, the good old develop and steam roll model. Probably the most natural way to play games against the AI, but good human players won't let you do that easily.

First question: should I be switching to TEC Rebels? I've heard they're more aggressive and they are seeing more "competitive play". I know it's a loaded question, just interested in opinions.

It is a controversial question. In my opinion, the thing that gives the TEC Rebels the advantage is the Ragnarov. I actually think the TEC Loyalist tech tree is better, but a lot of the good things don't come out until late game and are expensive to deploy properly anyways (double starbases). The TEC Rebel tech tree really sucks, but the Ragnarov's killing power is usually more useful than the Ankylon's durability, and titans come out well before you can really take advantage of the TEC Loyalists advantages. The other big thing the TEC Rebels have is Truce Amongst Rogues, which in the right circumstances can give you a devastating early game if you rush it. The TEC Loyalists have no such early tech that can change the game so radically. However, if you survive into the later stages of the game, the TEC Loyalists cheaper/numerous Novalith cannons and some of the defensive upgrades like Militia armor/weapons are more significant than the Rebel's other techs.

Due to faster paced nature of multiplayer, the Rebels are usually preferred  and when starting out the hard part for you will be learning to survive to the later stages of the game, so at least for learning I'd say play Rebels. Once you have some practice fighting off those early rushes and don't lose every time to them, you may switch back if you prefer that play style.

Where can I find good replays!?

Here. I don't know when the 1.1 replays start, so you might want to start at the end and work backwards.

Also, while no where near as good as replays, and I'm hardly the best person to learn from, I do record some matches and put them on Youtube. The main advantage here is that these don't get out of date, but you can only see my prospective.

Everyone is upgrading their metal extractors

They are? In serious games I almost never upgrade resource income, neither metal or crystal.

Pros vs Modders

It was Pros vs Modders. I have the video from my prospective on the above YouTube link, but I was playing Advent that game.

- Homeworld Metal/Crystal extractors

Okay just FYI, absolutely ever game with multiplayer will have quickstart on, so you do not need to worry about this.

- Civic Lab

What labs you should build right away has also been a pretty controversial topic here. In hindsight I say it is best to not build civic labs until you see a Volcanic or Ice planet to use the colonization techs for (or you are in the "Economy" position in a team game). It might even be better to just leave 4 logistic slots blank until your scouts show all your colonization paths have Volcanics or Ice worlds in the way.

- 4 to 5 Cobalt Frigates

Somewhat related, always get at least 1 military lab ASAP for Corvettes. They're fast and deal a lot of damage to Siege frigates, so they are great for early expansion. I usually only build 2 LF and send them to take a nearby asteroid, research Corvettes ASAP, then build those until I see what my opponent is doing.

 

Also a big omission from your build order is a colony frigate. Ever "pro" or semi-competent player online is going to be doing "double colonization", or sending their capitalship to colonize in one direction while frigates and a colony frigate go expand in a different direction. After you've taken a few planets you may then regroup and rush a nearby neighbor, but you'll likely be behind your opponents if you are only expanding with 1 colony capitalship the entire time.

Reply #2 Top

1. TEC Rebels are more geared to more aggressive play yes. So if that is the way you want to play then go for it.

2. They are hard to find but one or two do exist.

3. Black Market. Sell your metal there and use the credits to help get your crystal going. Crystal is always short.

4. The whole equation that controls the trade line is poorly understood even now. Best to find that line yourself and develop it. Any trade ports built away from the line (as in not in an adjacent gravwell) will still add to your income.

5. Usually most Sinners will use the quick start option which help a lot with some of your starting. A military lab with Corvette research will help while you throw your Akkan into the asteroid gravwell is good to do as well. Corvettes seem to do a lot better in clearing out and supporting your Akkan. Timing of trade ports and other Civ Tech (most pros rarely upgrade extractors) is dependent upon enemy placement/closeness but getting Ice/Volcanic Colonization is critical.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Ryat, reply 2
The whole equation that controls the trade line is poorly understood even now. Best to find that line yourself and develop it. Any trade ports built away from the line (as in not in an adjacent gravwell) will still add to your income.

What? It can be complicated for new players but it is perfectly understood. It is +7.5% trade income per node on your chain. And the goal is to make the chain as long as possible, but if at any point the chain could be shortened via passing through a "shortcut", that will be your trade chain (what I call "The longest shortest path").  ;)  Or perhaps a better way of thinking about it is imagine you are a trader, and you get payed for each planet your ship passes through. Your trade chain would be the most profitable route, that is the shortest route between the two farthest planets on your trade route.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1

Where can I find good replays!?

Here. I don't know when the 1.1 replays start, so you might want to start at the end and work backwards.

Also, while no where near as good as replays, and I'm hardly the best person to learn from, I do record some matches and put them on Youtube. The main advantage here is that these don't get out of date, but you can only see my prospective.

Thank you, I had found that link before. Why is there such a shortage? Is it because Ironclad in their infinite wisdom made all replays break on game updates? Surely I'm not the only person who feels that is hairbrained...

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1

Everyone is upgrading their metal extractors

They are? In serious games I almost never upgrade resource income, neither metal or crystal.

I guess I was speaking from some of the Youtube videos I saw. Question, how are you able to build anything without upgrading your extractors? By mid game I usually have my crystal upgraded the first two tiers, and I'm still short all the time. Any trick here, or are you just saying the gains aren't worth the time/investment to upgrade?

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1

What labs you should build right away has also been a pretty controversial topic here. In hindsight I say it is best to not build civic labs until you see a Volcanic or Ice planet to use the colonization techs for (or you are in the "Economy" position in a team game). It might even be better to just leave 4 logistic slots blank until your scouts show all your colonization paths have Volcanics or Ice worlds in the way.

I've heard a lot about these positions, but found no documentation on where/what their responsibilities are. Naturally, I get the gist of it, the Eco will feed the other players' militaries...but where can I find something on developed strategies for each position/how best to help out, etc. This is stuff noobs need to know :)

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1

Also a big omission from your build order is a colony frigate. Ever "pro" or semi-competent player online is going to be doing "double colonization", or sending their capitalship to colonize in one direction while frigates and a colony frigate go expand in a different direction. After you've taken a few planets you may then regroup and rush a nearby neighbor, but you'll likely be behind your opponents if you are only expanding with 1 colony capitalship the entire time.

I'm familiar with double colonization though haven't had the guts to try it yet. I assume you have to wait for your colony frigate to gain nearly full antimatter before jumping to the new system, as you lose antimatter when phase jumping? At what point is it "safe" to jump to have enough time to get in and get out before the militia gets you? Or do you always use a scout to "lead them astray" before sending in the frigate? Reports seem to vary on optimal technique.

 

Thank you for all the responses, by the way, very helpful.

Reply #5 Top

My comments are for Single Player only, preferably FFA in a vast galaxy with 1 human and 9 AI players (although they would also work for fewer AI players and a couple more humans as well).  Multi-Player depends too much on initial constraints.

In general, in the early game I think you would be better off focusing less on research and more on expansion and economic development.  I usually start off with a Military Lab (for corvettes and to start the hull and firepower upgrades), and then put Civ Labs on my first couple of new planets to get Trade Ports and the colonization tech for whatever kind of worlds I spot close by (just like you).  Put the cash you were diverting into additional research into your trade port upgrades, a colony ship (in addition to your Akkan), and additional Mil Labs for Javelis Frigates, Gardas and Hoshikos and Percherons.

I usually do not scrap my capital ship factory, because I want the ability to deploy a second capital ship if needed. 

After your economy is humming, then you can circle back for crystal and metal production techs.  They are handy to have but not essential, as cash will substitute for both (and usually you will have a surplus of one or the other that you can sell for cash to convert to the other in any case).

Also, I know it's controversial, but I like to start installing starbases fairly early, although they need to come on line at about the same time as you deploy your Titan, so don't neglect your Titan research or put off building the foundry for too long.  I know that this lays out a lot of conflicting priorities, but it's the balancing act that makes the game so interesting. 

 

 

 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting TechKrill, reply 5
I guess I was speaking from some of the Youtube videos I saw. Question, how are you able to build anything without upgrading your extractors? By mid game I usually have my crystal upgraded the first two tiers, and I'm still short all the time. Any trick here, or are you just saying the gains aren't worth the time/investment to upgrade?

They are usually not worth the investment, especially in competitive games where over investment in research can ultimately lead to your defeat if your enemy invests that instead in military and kills you before the research can pay itself off. You will get by far the vast majority of your income from either trade or your allies if you do team games. Once you have credits, you just need to use the black market. A lot!

Quoting TechKrill, reply 5
I've heard a lot about these positions, but found no documentation on where/what their responsibilities are. Naturally, I get the gist of it, the Eco will feed the other players' militaries...but where can I find something on developed strategies for each position/how best to help out, etc. This is stuff noobs need to know

I think there is a sticky detailing them, but the problem with stickies here is that a lot of their authors move on, so the stickies don't get updated, new up to date stickies rarely get added, and no one wants stickies to get taken down. The general advice is probably good but always be ware of the specifics unless it is a pretty recent post.

Anyways, the positions come from the fact in random maps, players are always spawned in a ring about the same distance away from a star. Thus each player is immediately adjacent to two other player, and depending on how the random map generator places these players, your tactical position is thus determined. There are of course 3 combinations.

1. Both of your neighbors are on your team. Yea! You're in the Economy (eco) spot. Your enemies have to either go through your friends or go through the middle of the map to attack you, so you should have at least a half an hour before you can possibly be attacked. Since you are relatively safe, it is your job to expand and develop relentlessly to develop the economy that will power your entire team to victory. You don't want to invest too much in fleet because the fleet upkeep will hurt you economy. Instead, expand aggressively with your starting fleet supply and capture as many planets as possible, then start building a lot of trade ports as fast as you can. Once the money starts coming in (on perhaps even before that if necessary), start "feeding", or sending resources, to your allies on the front lines doing the fighting. Since you shouldn't need a large military, you can take full advantage of the lack of fleet upkeep and provide the resources your allies will use to win the war. Eventually you may fleet up a bit so you can build a titan to assist your allies in battle (or if one of your neighbors gets killed you will no longer be eco anymore), or invest in things like super weapons to try and influence the war from a far, but your main job, especially while your new (and thus your allies can do a better job at fighting) is to give economic aid to your team.

2. One neighbor is friendly, the other hostile. You're on the front line. The good news is the enemy is only coming from one direction (at first). The bad news is you may not be very far apart from your enemy, so battles are going to start pretty quick. Especially while you are new this can be discouraging, as experienced players will go for the kill ASAP, and even more so when they think they are better than you (and odds are at first they'll be right). Military is much more important here than it ever is against the AI, so just expand and invest in the most basic things (first few population upgrades and extractors, early frigate designs, planet colonization techs etc.) until you're sure you can protect expensive assets like trade ports. If things don't go well, see the next position. If you can hold your own, things may die down a bit as you both build up to try and take each other out, and at this point you can start investing and developing more, but scout your enemy well so you know how large his force is, and watch out if other players are sending him reinforcements to try and double team you.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the enemy team may have Eco players as well, so its possible your enemy will have far more resources to spend than you because he is getting help. In this case your team will either also try to help you, or (especially while you're new), they'll figure it is better to attack the other flak to try and break through there. In this later case just try to hang in there, if you can hold out long enough for your allies to kill an enemy frontliner first, they'll be able to threaten the enemy eco players and likely win the game.

3. Both of your neighbors are hostile. You are in the dreaded suicide position. Typically it's pretty easy to tell when there is a suicide player, and your enemies will waste no time trying to kill you off quickly, so expect to be double teamed (occasionally, one of your allies might attack one of your neighbors hard enough to force him to keep all his forces on defense, but don't count on this). In this spot expansion isn't as much of a priority, unless you're very good or lucky you will lose your home world. You just need to hold out as long as possible and try to inflict as much damage as possible.

Okay, so you got double teamed and your homeworld is getting bombarded within 15 minutes. However, that does not mean you are dead. Multiplayer does not usually play with "Capital Victory" on, so you can actually survive without planets as long as one of your team mates is alive. In the suicide (or any defeated) spot colony capitalships are thus vitally important, as if it survives the battle, you can retreat to the no man's land in the center of the map near the star, and try to restart there. Ideally you'll want to try and meet up near one of your allies so they can cover you. After colonizing a couple planets, start building up a basic military force of whatever you can muster and see what you can do to help your allies. Your force will be small by comparison but even a small force can be significant when lead by an intelligent human player. And if it is a close game, the fact the enemy failed to kill you off completely can be a game changer, and you might even be able to make a good comeback in your Empire's new territory, especially if things are going well enough the eco player(s) can feed you.

Quoting TechKrill, reply 5
I'm familiar with double colonization though haven't had the guts to try it yet. I assume you have to wait for your colony frigate to gain nearly full antimatter before jumping to the new system, as you lose antimatter when phase jumping? At what point is it "safe" to jump to have enough time to get in and get out before the militia gets you? Or do you always use a scout to "lead them astray" before sending in the frigate? Reports seem to vary on optimal technique.

Everyone does it a slightly different way. Colony frigates lose 100 antimatter when jumping, but if you can clear the entire gravity well you want to jump in the colony frigate ASAP. You don't have to jump the colony frigate in before all the milita are destroyed, but the fastest ways probably do. Only when it has close to 190 antimatter should you send it in with militia still present though (make always make sure the siege frigates will be dead by the time you colonize it).

While there are more advanced forms of it like using turrets to clear the remaining militia after siege frigates are destroyed, the most important concepts of the strategy are colonizing in two directions at once, learning to use your capital ship to clear militia by itself, and using the rest of your fleet supply for the colony frigate and combat frigates to clear the militia in the other direction.

 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3
What? It can be complicated for new players but it is perfectly understood. It is +7.5% trade income per node on your chain. And the goal is to make the chain as long as possible, but if at any point the chain could be shortened via passing through a "shortcut", that will be your trade chain (what I call "The longest shortest path"). Or perhaps a better way of thinking about it is imagine you are a trader, and you get payed for each planet your ship passes through. Your trade chain would be the most profitable route, that is the shortest route between the two farthest planets on your trade route.

Have to admit, never thought of it that way. I guess I haven't really stayed caught up on all of that.

Reply #8 Top

So, after doing some tests and runs based on what you guys have said, I really appreciate the advice. It's been working out really well. Also, watching some replays from that replay thread linked above really helped. Watched each one 4-5 times watching different players' strategies, especially the ones who blossomed mid to late game. Some really good opening offensives too, really enjoyed it.

Playing against a hard AI showed a tremendous difference, and keeping early game research to a minimum is something all new players should be told :) Naturally, made a huge difference to my economy. Also, double colonization isn't as stressful as I had feared.

Just some more questions as they come up:

I read if you are Frontlines or Suicide, it's wise to have an Akkan...why is that? Seems you'd want something with as much firepower as possible, like a Marza if you're going to get mugged right off the bat. Just curious if this is a large matter of opinion or if there were a good reason to take the Akkan instead.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting TechKrill, reply 9
I read if you are Frontlines or Suicide, it's wise to have an Akkan...why is that? Seems you'd want something with as much firepower as possible, like a Marza if you're going to get mugged right off the bat. Just curious if this is a large matter of opinion or if there were a good reason to take the Akkan instead.

Players by no means always get an Akkan or other colony caps, but here is the reason.

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 7
Okay, so you got double teamed and your homeworld is getting bombarded within 15 minutes. However, that does not mean you are dead. Multiplayer does not usually play with "Capital Victory" on, so you can actually survive without planets as long as one of your team mates is alive. In the suicide (or any defeated) spot colony capitalships are thus vitally important, as if it survives the battle, you can retreat to the no man's land in the center of the map near the star, and try to restart there. Ideally you'll want to try and meet up near one of your allies so they can cover you. After colonizing a couple planets, start building up a basic military force of whatever you can muster and see what you can do to help your allies. Your force will be small by comparison but even a small force can be significant when lead by an intelligent human player. And if it is a close game, the fact the enemy failed to kill you off completely can be a game changer, and you might even be able to make a good comeback in your Empire's new territory, especially if things are going well enough the eco player(s) can feed you.

As long as one of your allies is alive and you have a colony ship of some kind remaining, you can always relocate and try to start over, keeping you in the game. It is much harder to do without a colony cap, as colony frigates are have more antimatter issues and are fragile, so you can send them through enemy or even militia territory to get to a safe haven. If you've already lost all your planets and your colony frigate gets blown up, then you have no way to rebuild your forces. Meanwhile a colony cap can usually escape from any early-mid game defeats (especially the Akkan with Armistice).

That said, as frontline, firepower and especially a Marza can easily be a better choice, since if you get that to level 6 you'll have a huge advantage. The Sova is also a good choice if you are very close to your enemy for Embargo. However, as suicide I would always get an Akkan, as you're likely need to run for it sooner or later.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Ryat, reply 2
1. TEC Rebels are more geared to more aggressive play yes. So if that is the way you want to play then go for it.

I think, its more about the way he is forced to play, rather than what he wants. :)