Counters/Synergies

Well, the stickies are always a good place to start even if they are old. However, my sticky was updated only days ago and is still good, but is a reference chart of ship stats.

You can get a good idea of what counters what by going to it and looking through the Damage Modifiers Chart, which tells you what bonuses ship classes get vs other classes.

However, here is my best rundown for you: early game it's light frigates>flak>corvettes>long range frigates>light frigates.

You can sort of view titans as a counter for capital ships, starbases, and/or other titans.

I really don't know what to tell you for synergies, because that depends on what faction your playing. more detailed counters could also be given if I knew what fleet(s) you were facing too. If you just want it all, I'm sorry but you will generally have to look around and compile it yourself.

Lol what? Well maybe the Coronata, but if anything every other titan counters frigates more than anything. Heck the Kultorask can't even target Capitalships, starbases or other titans. And capitalships are probably the best counter have to titans, along with corvettes (as long as it's not a Vasari titan) and carrier cruisers.

Are the races well balanced? I remember in old days I used to easily roll the AI with LRF/flak spam, with subverters (i think that's what they were called, those support ships that disabled other ships). The Vasari missiles did tons of damage.

I am thinking going TEC- but not entirely sure whether to go rebel or loyalist; which splinter faction is stronger?

For single player they're mostly fine, Vasari might have the edge in a players hands thanks to phase stabalizers and Kostura's, and the Vasari Rebel's phase jumping starbases is pretty broken in MP, but it's probably been worse.

TEC Rebels get played more in MP because their titan is better; the Ragnarov is on the "Box" of the game for a reason. It's a flying shotgun of mass destruction and will wreck unprepared fleets with ease. However, I'd argue the TEC Loyalists have better research overall, with quick and cheaper Novaliths being a big bonus, and militia weapons/armor and cheaper SB upgrades are a great boost too. The problem is these are all fairly late techs, so the Loyalists don't really shine until late game.

TEC Rebel techs are pretty mediocre except for one, Truce Amongst Rogues, which lets you ally yourself with the militia and Pirates. This can be rushed early to let your colony ships colonize as fast as they can reach planets and regenerate antimatter, and the militia will actually guard your planets for you. It takes a lot of practice to do it well but it's fun to do and can be very effective. Otherwise, it gives immunity from pirate raids and lets you attack through the pirate base, which can be useful by itself depending on the map.

In short, for shorter games or if you like rushing go TEC Loyalists, if you like longer or slower paced games go TEC Loyalist.

GoaFan77,

Is "Truce Amongs Rogues" viable in skilled pvp games without getting rushed? Seems to be fairly high on the tech tree.

I played my first online game (2v2), unfortunately my teammate left and I was stuck with AI who was totally passive. My two human opponents were offering coin to the pirates as bounty for my head , and because they were two of them they had more of it. I couldn't fight back and kept getting attacked by pirates so was thinking of getting "Truce Amongs Rogues" to combat that. Fortunately, my two opponents were very capital ship and bomber heavy. I managed to counter and defeat them in the end with a spam of flak, hoshikos, LRF and some left over corvettes and my sole level 10 Akkan capital ship. But the pirates really took it out on me.

The other think they used fairly effectively was culture. I even managed to loose one of my outer rim planets because of culture. Is fighting using culture and pirate spam the common theme in most online games? Should I rush for "Truce Among Rogues" and the culture upgrades when playing online?

I opened with x1 civil lab and x1 military lab. Then went x3 military lab for hoshikos and was working towards the Ceilo Command Cuiser. I also invested the armour upgrades (all level 1+ 2 military). Should have I not worried about armour upgrades and instead go solely x1 military and then all out civ labs until "Truce Amongs Rogues" and focus on my military after that?

It is totally viable if you're playing large team games and you're in the "Economy" (Eco) position, that is you have teammates on either side of you. Your main role here is not combat but to get as large as an economy as possible to send resources to your frontline players. Obviously expanding rapidly in this situation is a very desireable trait.

If you're in any sort of team game though and are not in this position, I'd doubt it. If you are next to an enemy player who launches an early serious attack on you, your resources will be stretched too thin to counter the threat. You'll only pull it off if that enemy player is in the suicide position (I.e. two enemy players on either side), and your team mate on the other side of the enemy rushes him for you. It may also work in a FFA if your enemies are similarly distracted for a bit by other players. Yet knowing when to rush TaR(and being able to execute it well) and when to go with a more conventional strategy is the sign of a good TEC Rebel player.

If pirates were left on, your really should have gotten Truce Amongst Rogues as soon as you were the target of a pirate raid. Also I doubt either of your opponents where really "pros", they rarely play with pirates, but that might be a good sign that there are more skill levels playing Sins online.

If you do rush Truce Amongst Rogues you may as well get the other good TEC early civic techs: trade, culture, cheaper extractors and factories, and cheaper logisitic slot upgrades. But if you don't, don't worry about getting culture at the expense of military. Many experienced players who rush like to build culture near your homeworld because they know their rush well leave you short of planets and thus logistic slots. This means you have a hard choice between military labs to research ships, factories to build units quickly, and civic labs/trade ports for development, and thus either the culture will kill you slowly or you'll have to sacrifice enough military capacity to counter the culture that it will be easier for them to beat you.

Stop right here. Do not go over three military labs (maybe four if titans start coming out) until you have a moderate sized Empire with your situation more or less under control. In a losing situation two is all you need as TEC to get your primary combat frigates. I would not build Ceilos until Titans are built, the only reason to build them is to have a few for designate target to kill titans can capitalships faster.

Many newish players tend to invest too much in stat upgrades early on. Minus phase missiles or those needed to unlock units, like the first 3 shield techs for the Advent's Iconus Guardian, you should not make these a priority. The tier 1 techs are pretty cheap, so if you have cash to spend and you don't feel that it is a good time to increase your fleet supply, it is okay to get them. But otherwise don't bother with them until you have a decent sized fleet (say 800 worth).

It might be a good general idea, but never be afraid to delay your TaR rush if you need flak or LRMs to counter an enemy attack. Also, remember scuttling labs can be a valid strategy. You need your military labs alive to be able to produce researched ships, but Truce Amongst Rogues and Ice/Volcanic colonization techs do not need the civic labs to remain. So as soon as you get TaR and the Colonization techs, if you need to scuttle them to shift gears to military or trade, do not hesitate to do so.

Hey thanx for advice Sith & Goa,

Picked up heaps of really good tips studying MP pvp videos which i had great success employing vs AI.

Three things still puzzling me:

1. How do corvettes do vs LF's (which unit is stronger);

2. Are Corvettes good counters for bombers/fighters or should I mainly use Flak.

3. HC's seem non-existent in skilled games. Are they just not that great? Should I not worry about building them?

It's ambiguous  neither counter each other, so they are mediocre matchup. Usually you use LFs and Corvettes together so the LF can counter the counter to Corvettes, flak, while Corvettes handle the counter to LF, LRF.

Flak against bombers, fighters against bombers if you can, otherwise flak and antistrikecraft capitalship abilities. Treat corvettes being able to attack strikecraft as a bonus, not a central feature, though they are better at attacking bombers than fighters.

No, it is because eventually skilled games tend to become bomber heavy, and bombers murder HCs. So it's just not worth building them because their counter will get mass produced later anyways.

Ok, so I played another MP (4v4) as TEC rebels. Albeit lots of players disconnected/left only to be replaced by passive AI's.

Anyways I rushed the player on my left and eventually overcame him. By this time all my teammates had quit. And all the players but one on the other team had quit.

My fleet composition was around 1000 points and included x1 Akkan and a mix of LF/corvette/flak/hoshiko.

Unfortunately, the other player (also TEC), by this stage has build a Titan, and what seemed about half a dozen capital ship and was fairly carrier/bomber heavy. My much larger fleet with my single level 9 Akkan engaged his fleet and was promptly decimated by what seemed mainly the Titan's doing- the thing seemed OP and just wouldn't go down.

So the question is should my main objective while playing MP games be to "Titan up"? and possibly "bomber up"!? I seem to be fairly comfortable with my early-mid game, but I am unsure what to do in late game as far as technology and fleet composition is concerned.

What about race specific super weapons? should I focus on building those too?

Also I am unsure of what my consecutive capital ships should be. I like Akkan as opener, but then should I go for a Dunov for its shield restoration and antimatter drainage? Should I build a bunch of Dunovs? etc.

Speaking personally, and others may not agree (are likely to disagree), I LOVE the Dunov, but typically ignore Shield Restoration (TEC shields are a joke, and to me it's not worth worrying about them that much but to each their own). Magnetize is more useful, in my opinion. It seems like everybody forgets that it shuts down enemy abilities, and if you can get the ability to level 3, it stays active as long as you have antimatter. 2-3 Dunovs can destroy an enemy fleet's cap ship ability-based synergies.

Magnetize doesn't work on Titans, but EMP does. With good micromanagement you can split a Dunov's workload up, shutting down a capital ship and draining the Titan. 2-3 Dunovs is manageable, more than that gets a bit overwhelming. Get them to Level 6 and their ultimate ability is amazing as well.

When I open (and I'm far from a pro, still getting the hang of this RTS) I tend to start with either the Akkan or the Sova depending on my mood and the size of the map, but a Dunov is always my second capital. If I already have an Akkan, then my third capital is also a Dunov. If I started with a Sova, my third is an Akkan.

But you should probably trust GoaFan's take over mine. I love the Kol, so you know I'm strange...

If i'm in suicide, should i go for a marza or an akkan? garda or lrm?
i tend to be in suicide almost every time, and rushing is a big problem for me.

the other player almost always goes for corvettes. is there any viable counter for corvettes in the early game? 

Vasari Loyalist Vorastra - the more capital ship oriented Vasari Loyalist do profit from having an early Vorastra but be carefull.... fewer numbers of support ships mean that both Titan and capitalships are easy prey for enemy corvette fleets. You want to rank it up as much as you can as on level 6 it becomes the most deadly weapon in the entire game. The Maw. Large carrier fleets, the bane of any other Titan dont stand a change as the Vorastra just jumps in and literally eats them for breakfast.

Vasari Rebel Kulturask - this Titan may not be what you would call a mighty dreadnought, but its ability to drain enemy ships make it close to invulnerable when you attack it with a large fleet. They only thing that does help against this monster is a large fleet of capitalships with AM draining abilities and your own Titan. Expect heavy losses as your enemy has no such limits and will happily beat the shit out of your few ships with his entire fleet.

Superweapons are a late game tech and should be used as such:

TEC - Novalith cannon

Fires a single shot that does 4500 damage to a planet, reduces trade income and population grow. Kills a large ammount of population. Should the planet be destroyed it will not be colonizable for a while.

Advent - Deliverance Engine

Was nearly worthless for a very long time but got a major buff in a recent patch. Will reduce allegiance on the target planet and will spawn very powerful culture from it for a while that makes adjacent planets suffer a - albeit smaller - loss of allegiance. Hit planets on the far borders of your enemy and he may loose the planet instantly. Recolonisation can be hindered by following shots to the adjacent planets that did not yet fell to it. The short term economic damage is usually inferior to the Novalith cannon, however the long term damage may be far higher as your enemy is forced to scuttle several tradeports and build culture centers instead or risk loosing more and more planets. Can target allied wells - with population - too. A hit there will also considerable increase Advent fleet combat power. Multiple recent hits are quite capable of wiping out an enemy capital, something that multiple Novalith cannot do (as the enemy will likely have a starbase with Auxilarly Goverment there) There is no defense but building a lot of culture centers.

Vasari - Kostura cannon

As a large majority of games is played on single star maps, the Kostura is considered to be the best superweapon by many. A hit to a gravity well disabled all structures there for considerable time. This mean a hit at a research planet of your enemy will deny him the building of many ships, because disabled labs count as not existant labs. For example you hit an Advent world with 3 temple of hostility. In Total the Advent has 5 temple of hostility. 3 of those 5 temples are now disabled..... the Advent can no longer built any illuminators because they require 3 military labs to be active.

The reason however of why the Kostura is so murderous powerful is that it creates a phase stabilizer node at the target. This allows the Vasari to be ANYWHERE in the star system at a moment notice. They will happily jump by all your mighty defenses.... and their fleet that was just 20 jumps away from your capital.... a journey easily taking 15 minutes of real time is now approaching that capital via a direct jump..... and they will be there in less than 1 minute. Once they have arrived they will deal swiftly with any non disabled defenses there and then bomb your capital(or any other important planet) back to the stone age. Even more murderous with the Vasari Loyalists who have a Titan that allows a retreat gate at any time and with stripped to the core.... Not only will your capital be bombed into oblivion but it will also be stripped to the core.... unless you manage to recolonize it in time... which is unlikely as nothing but your main fleet is enough to scare away the Vasari... the same main fleet that was at your borders to stop any invasion from there. By the time your fleet arrives home... said home is likely an asteroid.... as are possible more of your former planets now. When your fleet finally wants to engage the Vasari they will just drop a phase stabilizers and jump back to their territory. And all of that without your fleet getting off as much a a shoot. A few minutes later they will jump in again.... of course far away from your fleet and they will rape even more of your planets..... and there is very little you can do against that.... besides settling in a different star system. But then again most games are just one starsystem... and so the Vasari let terror reign.

TEC Rebel Titan does a highly profit from having 2 Dunows supporting it. On the other hand the Ankylon has many flaws but lack of durability is none of them. So for it it more aggressive Marzas may be the better choice.

If you are being hit by corvettes, then under no circumstances use LRM. Corvettes counter LRM.

If you are in the suicide spot and forced on the defensive, hanger bays are T1 and to get flak on them is T2. Corvettes are weak-ish to fighters. You won't be able to get enough quickly to rely on that alone, though, so I would recommend LF. Technically, neither LF nor corvettes get bonuses against each other, but the LF have a cost and training time advantage for a given level of combat power (not least because you can train them from the start of the game).

Eventually you will want flak. Flak counters corvettes pretty well, and if your enemy is adapting (which he should be) he'll produce LRM to counter your LM. Flak is also a soft counter to LRM and your fighters are a hard counter. Keep some LF around in case he brings flak along with his LRM.

Thanks Incomitatus, and thanks ARESIV for such a great explanation of the titans and super weapons. All very valuable info.

Somewhat off topic, I was recently on the receiving end of a really cheesy tactics during a FFA MP game. A novalith cannon was used against my home-world (while I was busy against another player), within about 20 minutes. It turns out that the host had victory conditions turn on- so when my home world got destroyed I lost the game.

Are star bases (with that governmental upgrade or whatever it was called), the only counter to this cannon? forcing me thus to cripple my economy/expansion/navy power against other players if I was to invest putting up SB's at every world!? Is there anything else that can be done to counter such cheese tactic?

If he's investing on early Novaliths, it means that he isn't investing much on his fleet or defenses, so you may have an advantage

Problem was I was already at conflict with the player to the left of me, and had to keep guard on the player to the right. While the novalith player was on the other side of galaxy. Not like I could go after him. Now if I invested in putting up SB's that early I would've have the fleet supply to defend myself against the early LF + corvette spam by the player to the left of me.

I'm thinking perhaps its best to stick to team games instead of FFA's. Less chance of getting ganged banged.

Yes, Auxiliary Government on a starbase is the only thing that will let you keep possession of the planet, but you'll still have your population (tax) and trade income wiped out.

Besides a starbae with auxilarly goverment/enduring devotion/enforced loylity there is only one thing in the game that counters Novalith bombardement. The TEC planetary shield generator. However it does only considerable increase the planets health by mitigating a large ammount of damage to it.

For less important planets the enemy has no good scoutting off it can be a worthwhile and cheaper defense that an starbase.

However for important planet... and in last captital standing your capital is the most important planet of all, only a Starbase with the mentioned upgrades will do the job.

Normally all superweapons choose a random enemy planet as a target..... the shield generator is easily capable of holding of that random shoot without loosing you the planet.... however they will throw everything they have at your capital and so the shield would not be sufficient.

Indeed, his fleet and defenses will be pathetic at best.... so move out your fleet and crush him... or at least kill the very expensive Novaliths.

All, alright, then you of course could not do that.

Any FFA has the very real risk that people gang bang upon you..... Some may simple consider you the highest treat to their survival and others may just be randomly choose you as a target. It is one of the reason I like FFA very much. You stand no chance against 2v1... but if you make them pay heavily enough or can arrange a meeting of the fleets, they will shoot each other instead of you. Especially in Last man standing games. On the other hand, they may choose a different target... allowing you to build up unmollested..... If player A, B and C wage merciless war on each other player D can build a a superior fleet or other nasty things.

Although building multiple Novaliths has an excellent change that a majority of people who are remotly capable of paying you a visit will do just that. First off, nobody likes being novalithed and second it is a safe bet that your defenses and fleets are meager at best.

In FFAs with allied victory and unlocked teams you have to choose your allies wisely. Those games can become even more interesting.

First make an early ally.... by forming at least a nonagression pact..... then throw all your forces at the closest enemy the opposite direction.

Said enemy will now likely look for allies on its own.... expect that ally or any other random player to invade your territory forcing your fleet into retreat for now.

In a larger FFA game alliances may change very often as the balance of power shifts permanently..... it introduces a political component to the game. The most deadly version is unlocked teams but no allied victory.... because everyone knows any alliance is going to be temporarly.

And so expect your allies to betray you.... when the time has come..... be wary of "supporting Orkulus starbases build at your empire core worlds. If you are the "traitor", make sure you finish your job.... people remember such things and as such probably wont ally with you again and instead happily watch you die.

If you are in a suicide spot on teams... which has a change of at least 50 %..... you likely will be gang banged too... however there is no option but to dig in pray.

I like.... your way of thinking....

Another question.

In order to be able to feed other players in MP does one need to research technology that allows one to "demand and offer gifts"? For TEC  its called 'Universal Negotiation'.

Yes.

Was wondering something about the early game fleet composition. Hope some of you more knowledgeable players could share your input here.

Say I have a fleet of Corvettes and LF's and opposition has also got a fleet of Corvettes and LF's. Would there be any reason to add flak and LRF's to my fleet since addition of these ships would not provide a hard counter to his fleet anyways (ie. his corvettes would still counter my LRF's and his LF's my flak). Or is it better just to stick with pure LF/corvettes fleet and in this case skip flak and LRF's in favour of more situational units i.e ogrovs vs starbases, crosovs to siege, hoshikos if he hasn't got any LF's or just for healing/cripple prowess etc. and then later just go bombers. Obviously if he was to go pure corvette or pure LF's then Flak or LRF's would be a must- but this is rarely the case as experienced players tend to mix their fleet eventually anyways.

I guess my question is if I had a fleet of corvettes and LF's and opposition had same fleet but also decided to eventually add flak to his fleet should I be worried since LF's counter Flak anyways (maybe it would be better in this case to just build more LF's), and this also works vice versa, should i be bothered with adding flak/LRF's to my fleet if opposition has LF/corvettes.

I think its generally viewed that the LF + Corvette Combo > LRF + Flak Combo. Part of it is that they have a speed advantage, and Corvettes will remain useful against titans once they come out. I'm not sure how a mix of all 4 would work but I wouldn't put a huge priority on diversifying. If you want to get an advantage I'd say just focus on out producing them, or deploying a capitalship with an AoE that affects Corvettes. Or just get your titan and support cruisers out faster.

One exception might be the Vasari, as the Assailants with phase missile upgrades have good capitalship sniping potential. However, their previous main window was early game, but corvettes have made that irrelevant. Still, if you enemy isn't building a lot of Corvettes Sentinels and Assailants might be better due to phase missiles. On the other side of the spectrum, the Advent should probably never build Illuminators unless facing an almost pure LF spam (though they probably are less bad against Corvettes). Here you might want to add flak to your LF + Corvette fleet if your enemy has a heavy Corvette fleet, as the Advent have strong units for all of these roles.

OMG I LOVE AGE OF EMPIRES!!! MAYBE WE COULD PLAY SOMETIME??