Hi Gaunathor, I just spotted this thread after a long break from GalCiv. This looks like a great mod and I'm hoping to take it for a spin soon, once I get my current pile of work sorted out. When I do, will provide any feedback I can.

Really pleased to see this mod, and that the GalCiv modding community is still active.

Thanks, I can't wait to get some feedback.

I just found your mod and it looks interesting, especially the weapon differentiation. I'm curious about how the AI chooses its weapons now, if it favors a particular path. Unfortunately I just bought Civilization 5 a week ago and I can't play anything else for now, I'm addicted to Civ 5. But when I'm all better, I'll be sure to play your mod and give you some feedback.

I modified Tolmekian's mod myself, merged it with HRG Mod 2.0 and changed some things I didn't like. I also attempted to make the AI use influence starbases, and partially succeeded, see here. I think we should try to extract some cool ideas from all the mods currently alive and try and make a supermod which sticks to the vanilla experience but improves it and fixes some of the game's flaws.

Thanks.


It's not much different from vanilla. The biggest change I noticed is, that not all AIs may choose the same weapons. So you could have two AIs using Mass Drivers, while the others are using Beam weapons. However, it still happens, that the AI is choosing the same weapons during succeeding games. Not always, but often enough to notice it.


I remember that thread.


Interesting idea. However, I'm not quite sure, if it is feasible. Some of those 'cool ideas' are mutually exclusive.

One question.  Does your mod address the AI personality flaws that Tolmekian mentions?  Example:  Personality 7 ending up not colonizing much.

You, Tolmekian, and the major modders are the saving grace of the game.  Without you GC2 is a pretty paperweight.  With you it's the best space 4x ever.  Thanks for your work.  Brad should hire you guys to finish what he starts.

After a fashion. I "fixed" the Torians and Iconians not building anything on their colonies, by changing them from AIP 10 to AIP 8 and 11 respectively, because there is nothing we can do to prevent it (except playing only on small maps, maybe). AIP 7, on the other hand, can work with the right settings on all map sizes. I made a post about the minimum map settings you should use here. There is also the thing, that the Korath AI is the only one capable of using Spore ships. So I would have needed to keep the Korath on AIP 7 either way, because I don't want to give them a different Super Ability.

It's too bad, though, that we can't mod the AI directly, or those flaws would have been fixed a long time ago.


Thanks.

In Custom Planets, give them 3-5 good worlds to start with.  Perhaps that would jump start them enough?  You'll have to play around with the numbers for balance, of course.

That could work, but I'd rather not change their home-systems. That would just go too much against my main objective: staying as close to the lore as possible.
Also, my guidelines for the map settings seem to work for now. I have seen the Yor, and sometimes the Drengin or Korath, win against multiple enemies. It still can be improved, but it isn't as bad as in vanilla.

To me, game play trumps all other considerations...  but if you feel you have them playing well enough then I suppose that's all that matters. 

Well, when I want to change something I always ask two questions first: "Can the AI handle this?" and "Does it fit with the established lore?". If the answer to either question is "no", then I'm not going to do it. There is no point in adding or changing something, if the AI can't use or handle it. It just isn't fun, in my opinion. If the lore is the problem, then I first try to find a way so the change fits, but that isn't always possible.

As you noticed yourself, balancing is also a big problem with this idea. If I give those races one or two medium-PQ planets, then the AI will be able to handle it, but on certain map settings (like rare Habitable Planets), it will be extremely OP. In the hands of the player, however, those races will always be OP, because a human can use the planets much better than the AI.

If I give those races one or two low-PQ planets, then the AI has a harder time handling it. Soil Enhancement is no problem in most cases, but Habitat Improvement and especially Terraforming are quite low on the AI's to-do list. By the time the AI researches Terraforming, the game is usually over, so it won't be able to fully use those planets for most of the time. The problem with the map settings and the player also still exist.

I really don't see how I could balance this, so those races have a big enough boost when played by the AI, but without it being OP against all the other races, especially in the hands of the player.


As I said, it still can be improved, and that is what I'm going to do, once my gaming PC is working again.

Still, I could really use some feedback on this and other parts of my mod. All I have to go by, currently, is my own impression on how things stand.

One change I would recommend considering is to make the 3 Thalan starting GAs into Super Projects. The reason why is because where there are multiple players with the Thalan Tech Tree, it becomes a race to build the Hyperion Matrix and EDU first. Not having them is a huge disadvantage to one of the Thalan players, which can build momentum and lead to a weakened start.

Good idea. I probably do this to the Hyperion Matrix, but I'm not so sure about the TEM and the EDU. Both work civ-wide now, because the AI had trouble dealing with the planetary bonus. If you could get either one multiple times, it could seriously unbalance the game. Still, it is unlikely that someone would play with more than two races with the Thalan tech tree (at least in my opinion), so it might actually not be that bad. I will think about it.

 

I suppose so. The only real way that could happen would be if you were able to capture the enemy planets of the other player using the Thalan tree, which could happen.

 

Of the 4 mods available, I think yours is the most reflective of the story and overall in terms of balance, the most effective. I'm going to be testing this one out and seeing what else I can find about it. So far though, I think you're reaching a point of rapidly diminishing returns with your mods to the tech tree.

Thanks.


Agreed. The only thing I'm going to do in the tech trees are to make some changes to help the AI's researching. Otherwise, they're fine now.

I've had only a limited amount of time to play this week (busy with life), so my sample size is somewhat limited, but here's what feedback I can give you:

 

The Torians, very much like Altarn and Tolmekian's mods do much better early game. Without AI 10 holding them, they seem to expand very rapidly and have a significant early game advantage. Now whether they can translate this into overpowered endgame domination seems to be inconsistent. Often the AI does catch up after some time for the other races, and they manage to "close the gap". In other cases, the Torian advantage is so overwhelming that nobody can really catch up.

 

I am also somewhat concerned about the Drengin. At the moment, they still do seem to play like a weaker version of the Korath. The other concern is that by the endgame, the Korath super ability is noticeably more potent than the Drengin one during conquest. They have certain technologies that the Drengin do not have something "as good" so to spreak. The Korath through Dark Influence are also a surprisingly decent choice for pursuing a cultural victory. I am unsure though of strictly from a lore, or a balance standpoint how to address this - in fact, I am not sure if this should even be addressed at all.

 

I'll  be playing more games next week, so I'll hopefully have some more extensive feedback.

Thanks for the feedback, UnleashedElf!

The Torians really are a strange case. Changing them to AIP 8 should have slowed them down a little, because AIP 10 is the expansionist, yet that wasn't the case. I tried to reduce the power of the Central Mine, but that didn't work out so well. It also worried me, because, if the Central Mine gets quickly outdated by factories, it is nothing but a trap for the AI. I may try to increase the price a little, once I can go back to testing, and see how that works out.

Calling the Drengin a weaker version of the Korath is actually an apt description, based on the lore. Yet, I was hoping my changes make them play differently enough. I could probably change the racial abilities of the Korath a little. Remove the Morale bonus and increase the Soldiering bonus to +30%. This would not only fit in with the lore (the Korath were the shock troops of the Drengin), but would also help the AI against being invaded.

Speaking of Dark Influence, that actually gives me an idea. I could remove Xeno Propaganda and Xeno Brain Washing from the Korath tech tree. The Korath don't really need them, as Dark Influence alone is powerful enough. Plus, it makes it easier for the AI to research DI. The Drengin, on the other hand, I could give some additional Culture modules. When combined with the Propaganda Machine, this would make their Influencer starbases quite useful. Maybe not as good as DI, but at least better than what they were before.

From what I remember, Xeno Propaganda was originally supposed to unlock a improvement that increases planetary resistance against foreign influence. I may try to implement it, but I'm not yet sure how. If I turn it into a 1pp improvement, the AI has trouble with it. You would want to build 1pps on all of your planets, but the AI has a tendency to quickly fill them up. So, if the AI doesn't research the necessary tech ASAP, it won't have enough space left. On the other hand, if I turn this improvement into a SP, I will need to use a bonus to Loyalty, but that would make it too similar to the Propaganda Center. Not that there aren't already several buildings that are very similar to each other. I just don't want to add even more, if I can help it. I might as well use the Propaganda Center then, but that would weaken all the other Evil races.

The production of the Korath is also bothering me, but I'm not yet sure what to about it. Those percentage bonuses are hard to balance.

So, what do you think about those changes?

What I did with the Torians was to make the Central Mine upgradeable to their own version of the factory. You can do that, have 1pp upgrade to unlimited improvements.

It means that they're guaranteed to have a little bit of industry on each world that has or had a Central Mine, but they're not left with an outdated improvement either.

I tried a similar approach about two years ago, by giving the Torians an independent line of factory-techs, complete with unique Mining and Production-Assist modules. Once I found the limit for starbase modules, I scrapped the idea. Maybe I should take another look at it? The Torians already have a unique Mining module, and I have enough space for four more, so that isn't an issue anymore. If necessary, I could even replace one of the new Culture modules for the Drengin.

Still, I actually like the Central Mine as a 1pp, and rather not turn it into something else. Maybe I should increase the cost for the Factory-techs? I already did that with the Torian version of Xeno Industrial Theory. Not that AIP 8 cares about that.

I really have to think about it.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure the Korath need a culture nerf. I'd be hesitant about making changes in this area. The  question is, should the Drengin be getting a culture boost - or perhaps a boost elsewhere such as economy?

 

And of course, any buffs or nerfs need to affect the balance of the 2 races to the others.

 

 

I would recommend against turning it into a 1per planet. The AI simply will not demolish or "reserve" tiles needed to build. With a PP, they'd quickly run out of space, not build it and no realize the benefit. I'd have to say that the super project falls under the category of "lesser evil". With super project, you'll have to use something other than the Propaganda Center or give the evil races something else to counter the changes.

Perhaps the best option is to just integrate it into research and make it more expensive to research. There are 2 options - integrate it into Xeno Propaganda and up the cost of researching Xeno Propaganda or the other option is to create a new technology down the line. Make it untradeable and unstealable. In the end, you're going to come up with an imperfect compromise no matter how this gets altered.

 

 

I'm not too sure of what your goals are here.

 

At the moment though, it seems the Korath have

- The slave canyon (shared with Drengin)

- A PP Devil's Forge (shared with Drengin)

- A PP Death Furnace (shared with Drengin)

- A PP Wretched Harvester

- A PP Aul Incinerator

 

Now it's the bottom 2 that are unique. It seems right now, only higher level worlds can truly take advantage of these incrementing bonuses, but at the same time, it makes the Korath very potent. One option is to get rid of the Devil's Forge and Death's Canyon, adjust that section of the tech tree, and balance the Korath by giving them only 2 PP industry improvements.

 

Without further clarification on what you want from the Korath tree, I can't really give feedback.

I don't think, it is that big of nerf. The Propaganda Machine is almost useless to them, because the Korath have only one weak Culture Module. Only the loss of the bonus to their Influence-ability can really be considered a nerf, and that is easily compensated with the +200% from the Dark Influence improvement. The Korath will also have much quicker access to DI, without Xeno Propaganda and Xeno Brain Washing as stepping stones, making it much easier for the AI to go that route.


Unlike the Korath and Yor, the Drengin don't have that many defenses against cultural invasion, so I think a slight boost is in order. Just big enough, that they don't have to constantly worry about loosing planets to culture flipping. I originally wanted to give the Drengin two new Culture modules, but ultimately decided against it. The AI has trouble using Influencer starbase, so making the Drengin too reliant on them would be detrimental for the AI. Instead, I increased the bonus from the Propaganda Machine from +50% to +100%, renamed the improvement to Brain Washing Machine and changed the requirement to Xeno Brain Washing. Still need to test it though.

On the economy-side, I decided to make the Aul Power Center Drengin-only. While it also fits nicely to the Korath, the Drengin have more need for it.


That goes without saying.


Agreed on all counts.


This really seems like the best option. In the end, I may actually just increase the Influence-bonus from Xeno Propaganda. Changing it to +10% doesn't seem big enough to warrant a cost-increase, especially now that Xeno Propaganda no longer unlocks the Propaganda Machine.


You forgot Enhanced Slavelings and Artificial Slavelings. Both techs provide a +30% bonus to Military Production and a +20% bonus to Social Production. That the Korath have access to them too just feels odd to me. Why would the Korath bother to improve their slavelings, if they want to replace them with clones anyhow? Then there's the fact that the Korath have a 50% bigger production-bonus than the Drengin. Sure, it comes at the cost of 3 tiles, but it stills adds to the whole "Korath-Are-Superior-To-Drengin"-feel. It also is a pain to balance, both with the Drengin and the other races.


Interesting idea. I already replaced Enhanced/Artificial Slavelings in the Korath tech tree with Advanced Cloning. Adding another, similar tech, and removing Devil's Forge and Death Furnace would keep the Korath' production on par with the Drengin, while staying relatively true to their lore. That could really work. I just need to re-adjust the Korath Mining and Production-Assist modules.

Thanks again for the feedback.

The more I think about it, the more I think that a technology based bonus is the only way to do it. The limitations of a PP improvement have already been discussed.

SP has another drawback. Suppose that the intended race builds an SP. This SP gives an empire-wide effect. What if it were to fall into enemy hands? It would make a bad situation worse. Imagine a culture SP that was on a planet that was "flipped" via enemy culture. That bonus is now in enemy hands. Now a human might put such an SP in a "core world" not so easily captured, but the AI given its limitations is not capable of doing that.

 

 

All types of improvements have their drawbacks. However, you have to use them in some cases, because providing the bonus via a technology makes no sense, is impossible (some bonuses are planetary only) or is simply OP.

In case of the Drengin, I decided to add a +10% Loyalty-bonus to Xeno Propaganda. They already have enough 1pp improvements. Adding another one would make things only worse. A SP would have been too similar to the Propaganda Center. Not to mention all the other drawbacks a SP would bring.

I'm currently testing my changes, and just realised why I took a break. The Drengin's research pattern is completely nonsensical. They go for everything, except the techs they could really use, like Slave Pits, Diabolical Research or Cutthroat Trading. I have no idea if this is due to one of my changes, or because I'm using a different testing-method.

One more thing I noticed is, that I forgot the Navigation Centers when I was "fixing" the 1pps. In other words, it can still happen, that the Arceans can not rebuild the NC, if they have upgraded it, and it got later destroyed. I have three ideas on how to fix this, but all have some drawbacks:

1. Remove the Advanced Navigation Center improvement and add the speed-bonus to the tech. The drawback here is that a +10% bonus seems pretty low for a cost of 3500, but that was already the case before. Plus, one tile seems like a pretty high price to pay for just +1 move. To fix the former, I could either move the +10% bonus from Interstellar Navigation to ANC, so it provides a total of +20%, or reduce the tech-cost for ANC. No idea about the latter though.

2. Remove the NC. This would have the drawback, that the Arceans would be much slower in the beginning. Not to mention, that there is the likelihood that the Arceans don't have any tiles left by the time they research ANC.

3. Remove the ANC improvement and add a +20% speed-bonus to the tech, remove the speed-bonus from Interstellar Navigation and increase the move-bonus of the NC to +2. This is a variation of the first idea. The drawbacks here are, that only the ships build on a planet with the NC get a speed-bonus in the beginning, and that the Arceans become overall much faster. I already gave them a boost by removing their speed-penalty. Giving them yet another boost seems like overkill. The Arceans are supposed to be slow.

One last thing: I reworked the maintenance-costs for Labs and Factories again. Since I began working on my mod, I alternated between a slowly increasing maintenance-cost (as it is in the current version) and a fixed maintenance-cost. Now, I went back to the fixed cost and think I'll stay there. The AI has far too many problems coping with the increasing maintenance. My current values are:

Factories 3bc
Slave Pits 1bc
Replicators 2bc
Collectives 2bc
Labs 5bc
Slavelings Labs 2bc
Schools 3bc
Research Collectives 4bc

The Thalan improvements are unchanged.

If I manage to tame the Drengin and nothing major comes up, I'll release the new version this weekend.

The other big problem with the Korath I find is that the AI isn't building all 4 PP improvements nor are they demolishing tiles on their planets for them.

 

When you have the time to, I'd recommend going through the Drengin and Korath AI values and costs tech by tech. At the moment though these two races don't fare too that poorly, provided the map settings to AI 7 are used.

 

 

 

I haven't had the time to observe the Arceans a lot but they do tend to struggle somewhat during the initial colony rush. So do the Korx to a lesser extent.

 

Depending on the game though, they often do recover, although neither of these two races tend to become the top powers in their games, at least from my experiences.

 

 

Right now, I'd lean in favor of a consistent maintenance pattern across each improvement, except maybe for the Thalan.

Deleted - double post.

Also regarding the Korx, I do not know how aggressively they should be relying on trade early game versus using a traditional "colony rush" strategy.

 

Sorry about the triple posting - my browser formatting is giving me issues right now.