Tuidjy Tuidjy

Why do standard sovereigns suck so bad?!

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Why do standard sovereigns suck so bad?!

from Elemental Forums

I think that by now, the standard races look really good.  I'm not saying they are perfectly balanced, because Altar and Yithril can wipe the floor with Pariden, for example, but at least they each have a personality, their own theme and peculiarities, and each can be taken to victory in at least ridiculous difficulty.

But the sovereigns, oh Lord, the sovereigns...

First, Porcupine.  She's got the weakest race, thus the weakest troops, and she starts with the three magic paths that have no early combat potential.  And because some developer clearly thought that she is overpowered, she got hit with the nerf stick recently, so now in addition to having a hit point penalty, she also hits less hard, and can't carry any armor.  Oh, and she has the worst starting weapon and a crown that benefits melee fighters - and I could not design a sovereign less suited to fighting. 

What's her profession? Why summoner, of course. Why of course? Because she does NOT have the two paths with the good summons - Fire and Earth.

Second, Lord Realass. He's not nearly as bad as Porcupine. He leads a damn good Kingdom, which has access to henchmen, who are much better than champions for all intents and purposes. You just need to research them, and you are all set.  So does Realass start with Water magic to speed up his research?  Or with Earth magic for protection spells?  Nah, Air and Fire for him. Great paths, no doubt, but not what you'd expect for a melee hero.  Oh, and he has the 'Veteran' talent, which gives him a grand total of 10 xpt, which could be also obtained by killing a couple of mites. Overpowered, no doubt.

And what is Lord Realass's profession? Why adventurer, of course.  Why of course?  Well, who should get champions for free but the guy who does not need champions.  You see the pattern yet?

Next Marquis, sorry, Emperor Karabass. A master manipulator, an accomplished diplomat, the mastermind behind the War of Magic... Hold it, this is the guy who has 'Cruel' as his weakness?  Unrest across all cities, or a flat 5% penalty to everything?  A joke for someone who claims to be a diplomat... Of course, he should have been an adventurer instead, because it synergizes with 'Betrayers', but by now that would have been very surprising.  Almost as surprising as 'diplomat' going to Realass would have been. Why? Because Realass actually can get the influence to make silver tongue effective.

And the list goes on.  Every sovereign seems to have been designed so that he does not fit his history, and definitely does not synergize OR complete his race, with the possible exception of Munchkin and Cerisa.  Cherry has 'scarred' which is a terrible weakness considering her race, but at least it fits her from a lore perspective.

How did standard sovereigns go so wrong?  I think that it's because all sovereigns start with 2 magic paths (some with multiple levels) which does not leave enough points for all the cool and interesting traits.  So what we end up is fighters like Venga and Munchkin barely having points for 'Hardy' with nothing left for obvious fighter traits like 'Might'... and as another consequence, we get a ton of sovereigns with weaknesses.

Or maybe it's a master plot by the developers to force players to design their own sovereigns...

60,798 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

The starting sovereigns are your opponents, so if they optimized those then beginning players would have a tougher time (or have to turn the AI down which ruins the fun).

 

Also, any strategy that involves avoiding conflict for hundreds of turns while you build strength is both world and ai dependent.  Perhaps Stardock should create a LUA option for strategic and tactical decision making for NPCs? 

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Having flipped from losing games to destroying the AI in the last few days, I can say that two things seem critical.   Early combat success and planning growth around capitalizing on racial/nation abilities. 

Weak default Sovereigns make the game a LOT harder for the player learning the game because they obscure the good strategies and make the start harder against monsters.

 

When the sovereigns are not alligned with the nation, it seems best to give them path of the governer and park them in a city.  That's not inspiring.   Having a level 20+ effective sovereign running interference on one side of your nation, fending off dragons while your champion leads the infantry hordes bearing down on an enemies town, is a lot more fun. 

 

The really good strategy bits in Fallen Enchantress are in finding the synergies like impulsive archers or lucky fortified troops and then using them to crush your foes.  The default Sovereigns are of generalist design, which means they can do everything ok, but not do well enough at anything to win.

 

 

 

 

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rvgr, reply 24
Why not? Penta-Mages rock. Some of the best spells are the cross-school ones.

They'd just be wasting money and perks, they're not as smart as us ;). Having 2-3 schools to get the main cross elemental spells should be enough for the AI to utilise. Else they would be spoilt for choice and probably end up casting all the wrong spells at the wrong times. Try running auto battle and having your water mage cast that 150 mana defensive spell... Against a bear... Oh my eternal foes...

Quoting dangerlinto, reply 25
The great thing about 3 schools of magic is you can get more of the mixed school spells. Honestly the best is Mantle of Oceans. Between Mantle, Path of the Mage, Mages Robe, + Affinity you can get your tactical spells to cost 95% less. Which is insane. I mod modded in a waaspon that also gave 10% and had to get rid of it because it was making all my spells free - which was fun for a about 5 turns before it ended up getting stupid.

Wellspring for 5-6 mana, Yes please! Air Life Water is my favourite combination. Mantle of Oceans for support spam, giving all your units a free turn when healing isn't needed, and nothing needs slow/shrunk wins the battle pretty easily. :D Throwing fire into the mix (sometimes I soulsuck a hero for this) to spam even more spells, no combination spell with water but it adds so many tactical options.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

I want to bump this because, humor aside, it's an important topic.

The initial sovereigns, and most likely the starting traits and professions too, are in need of optimising and rebalancing.

Adventurer seems appropriate for relias in concept, the effect of it isn't actually useful to him. perhaps that needs replacing with something better

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NanakoAC, reply 30
Adventurer seems appropriate for relias in concept, the effect of it isn't actually useful to him. perhaps that needs replacing with something better

I was thinking perhaps is profession should have something to do with what made him so great to begin with, but that probably IS Adventurer. Adventurer might just reference how he managed to recruit so many heroes on his journey. Despite the demands they always gave... He was born a noble, but not the kind the profession would make it seem... Less whoring and gambling, more sophisticated drinking? General might be most optimal for him. Since exp for heroes is divided, the more exp the better. Maybe if there was a Soldier profession, or Knight, that gave combat bonuses to the sovereign, he would fit that quite nicely.

Although I can understand why that kind of profession wouldn't have been included in the base game. Since it really doesn't influence play style as much as getting heaps champions. Just makes you slightly better in combat, which is more of a strategic decision (research/spending money/etc) rather than a freebe before the game has even begun.

Maybe something like "Crusader" or "Expedition Leader" which gives bonuses when out leading campaigns into wild lands or enemy territory. Sort of like some kind of 'Foreign Legion, just add Relias!'.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

I still hope the standard sovereigns gets a re-haul, it will be sad if that is another thing that mods have to fix :(

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Just a side note - Veteran would be somewhat more acceptable if it worked outside the experience progression. Meaning, Relias would start as a level 2 sovereign but still start with 0 experience, and would need 10 experience for the next level(in his case, the 3rd). That way he would keep his one-level-advantage over the other sovereigns into the late game(Relias and Markin with the same amount of experience, Relias would be one level higher)

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

i have an idea for adventurer.

As altar are currently the most overpowered faction, i propose nerfing them and fixing relias at the same time. Take the altar ability that gives +1 prestige for completing quests, and make that the function of the adventurer trait.

Altar would be weakened, but he'd now have a trait that perfectly suits his playstyle. And that trait would be avilable to custom soverigns for other races too.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NanakoAC, reply 34
Take the altar ability that gives +1 prestige for completing quests, and make that the function of the adventurer trait.

You do this, and you will bring back the 'enhanced' quest loop - i.e. one will be able to get both 'betrayers' and a way to generate influence by the bucket. 

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tuidjy, reply 35

Quoting NanakoAC, reply 34Take the altar ability that gives +1 prestige for completing quests, and make that the function of the adventurer trait.

You do this, and you will bring back the 'enhanced' quest loop - i.e. one will be able to get both 'betrayers' and a way to generate influence by the bucket. 

There is a difference between prestige and influence ^^

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

 

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

While I wouldn't be opposed to be tweaks, I think the game was designed for default-strength sovereigns.


I wouldn't mind 2nd Sovereigns kinda like how some factions in FFH had two leaders.