Destablization

Those %$@*ing Bastards! I was wondering why my population was always so 'bummed' out (even with 5000 channels of intergalactic mud wrestling etc). When I saw the ammount of bc the computer was spending on 'destabilization' in recent games I was really shocked! :SURPRISED:

I humbly ask, what can I do about it in a tight economy? The main problem it gives me is a low population growth which really bothers my expansion and invasion plans.

I've tried most of the high upkeep amusements along with increasing sector influence and some propaganda (which seems the most effective so far although I hate using it) . . .

I just can't afford Counter destabilization in most of my games what can I do?

P.S. I typed destablize as a search but got nothing so I thought it might make a good thread . . .
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259 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top
Build up your starfleets and give the %$@*ing destablizers hell!
Reply #2 Top
Yes, that would be the exact play I would use: if you cannot counter with destab of your own, take out a planet or two with a limited war (as well as a few starbases) in order to give you an edge.
Reply #3 Top
RayChua and Gerakken I really want to believe me! In this game I'm trying to finish at the moment (day 3 Medium Painful Rare), I actualy catch myself 'swearing' at the PC in uter disgust (frustration = fun)!

It's a war of attrition just me and the Trodians left with whom I've been at war since the start. I can't quite get my claws into them because all thier planets are around the edge of the map . . . I'd strangle thier skiny necks if I could just get a hold of them. It's an interesting situaltion the middle of the map is just a graveyard of Post Mass Drivered Planets. (I couldn't help myself!)

- I luv this game! (any hints welcome :) )


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Reply #4 Top
Destabilisation is, I think, the only serious flaw this game has.

I no longer destabilise other races because sometimes that is just far so wildly successful it takes all of the fun out of the game. (Umh, I remember one game in which a huge Drengin Empire just went down the gurgler and I was shelling a tiny amount on destabilisation). OTH Sometimes destabisation has no apparent effect even if done on a massive scale for sustained period of time. (umh, remember spending 1000bc per turn for about 50 turns with no apparent effect)

OTH When someone is successfully destabising me I found that I have only two options, either:
1. abandon the game
2. exterminate the offender. So much for peaceful paths to victory!. Unfortunately GalCiv is too much like every other TBS game boasting of peaceful paths to victory, the peaceful win sometimes involves an awesome amount of violence. (In fairness though some games can be won without any fighting at all, it is just the @@@@ destabilisation).
Reply #5 Top
Re: the "no effect" after sustained destabilization...

I thought this was occurring when I first tried out mass-scale destabilization against the Torians in one game. However, even though their morale was pretty high (80%+) after the destabilization effort, when planets started flipping to me I noticed something -- all of them had EVERY SINGLE morale improvement the Torians could build...and they still weren't spending as much as I could have with that many planets.

What happened was that they compensated effectively for the destabilization's effect on morale...and as a result had to lower taxes and increase expenses considerably.

Of course, I'm still not sure how much that mattered either way, because by the time I started the destabilization campaign I held like 70% of the galaxy and the Torians the remaining bit, and I was playing at lower that what I've come to regard as my usual difficulty level...so they really didn't stand a chance anyway.

-EtherMage


~SDC~
Reply #6 Top
Kinda know what you mean Peter, I was playing a game where I forgot I was destablizing someone. Anyhow we allied . . . much later I finally noticed my mistake, but they never said a word?

Destabilizing would be kewler if there was more specific feedback :

(i.e. they have war party, you would destabilize by sending in peace activists, they have a merchant party, you could destabilize by sending an anti-galixization group . . . etc etc).

This could be automated but at least you could see what your doing . . . mabye a research ability could be devoted to this?

Saya mabye . . . without destabilization skills you'd concentrate on destabilizing with a more random and generaly less effective result . . . like perhaps :
i.e. the destabilizers working for you join the opposition and take with them a tech or some money, or mabye they're all rounded up and imprisoned or worse! Tortured for secrets (and you have to rescue them) oppps getting a bit carried away . . .

If instead you spend some tech on destabilization (xeno stuff) you could steal techs, cause migration, econimic slow downs etc etc.

Naturally I'm just fantisizing . . . :d
Alternatively you could have an enable OFF button for destabilization altogether?

P.S EtherMage that sounds like my situation exactly except I'm on the recieving end at the moment . . . yikes (I will not give up! . . . yet)


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Reply #7 Top
Uhm, just so you know, the AI always builds every building possible.
Reply #8 Top
You sure? I've taken over planets in the dreadnought era that didn't even have the basic +PQ buildings. And they'd been colonized since the early game...
Reply #10 Top
You sure? I've taken over planets in the dreadnought era that didn't even have the basic +PQ buildings.
End of quote


That is a culture bomb defense mechanism. If the alien cannot fix the situation and feels like the planet will be flipped anyway, he will pull ships toward that system to keep the peace with martial law while selling the improvements one by one each turn. The eventual effect is a morale 1 planet with billions of people that will flip, and it will be someone else's mess to fix.
Reply #11 Top
Drizzt DoUrden, You can see what thier spending on espionage and destabilization on the stats screen for each race (Providing you spend a little on espi' yourself to get the info) . . .

Also a non-specific report will come up as a rumour memo type thingo' . . .
Reply #12 Top
Thanks for all you Suggestions . . . Unfortunately I had to turn the Life Support Off on the game last night (tears steaming down my anguished face) . . . they got to Overlords! Game Over Ahhh h h h (hic#up)! (:(

It was an amazing game though (Painful is such an apt description of how the game turned out!) :D
Reply #13 Top
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but...

What you should do is take a moderately to densely populated planet, delete all the social works you've done, and give it to them. The outrageously low moral on that planet will put a damper on their spirits and force them to spend most of their money on upgrading the planet's social conditions.

It'll slow them down. And while they're finally back up, you will have amassed a big fleet to kick their asses into shape. ;)

And to think... I'm usually on the "good" moral side in games.
Reply #14 Top
They didn't seem to want to accept my poisoned token . . . alas, I'll have to start over. Interestingly in this dead rubber I have 2342 influence the Trorian have 3365 and the Alexians have over 62000 . . . wish I could destabilize those buggers, I blame them for my predicament! ;p
Reply #15 Top
Cotal:

The answer to desabilization is a combination of the following:

a) High Morale - since destabilization acts to lower morale and attempt to force planets into defection through failure of loyalty checks (see Brad's article on Sector Influence in the Encyclopedia), keeping morales above 80 will generally limit its effectiveness. (To defect, planets must fail 2 loyalty checks against their Morale in a row.)

To accomplish this, lower taxes and build +Morale planetary improvements. Also, stationing combat vessels in orbit helps, since the system defense strength (= to the modified combined AF+DF of those vessels) positively modifies the system's morale in your favor.


b) Resistance - A key factor in defection is the culture ratio in the sector. Poor Morale planets will defect to a rival culture if it becomes predominant in their sector. This factor is multiplied the greater the cultural disparity: cultural differences of 3000 pts. or more will almost certainly flip the planet to the dominant Empire.

Resistance values serve to decrease or eliminate this effect. For example, in one game I "inherited" an AI planet through destabilization. However, I was outpointed in culture in that sector ~7000 to ~1600. (It was in the middle of their Empire.) Morale was set immediately to 1. No number of +Morale improvements or amount of propaganda would raise this value. However, as soon as I built a News Network (+10 resistance) and the Secret Police (+15), morale shot up to 100. No tax rate changes, TR's or ship garrison were needed.

If you are stuck at 1 morale on a planet, most likely your Resistance value is too low (or nonexistant).


c) Culture: Dominant Empires (i.e., 2x or 3x the amount of culture over any rivals) tend to shrug off destabilization in their sectors, since there is such an overwhelming amount of loyal culture being generated around all their planets. If this value is high enough, any planets which do secede may well revert back in the next couple of turns. Building Culture & Party Palaces in threatened sectors tends to suppress the risk of defection.


d) Counter-Espionage: It has been reported on the forums that counter-espionage is factored in as a defense against destabilization efforts. This is undocumented, and has not been (afaik) confirmed by the dev's.


From the above, you can draw a few corollaries about using destabilization effectively:

1) Consider destabilization an adjunct to your other efforts, not an offensive strategy in and of itself. Destabilization serves to force the target AI to spend money on infrastructure it otherwise wouldn't build, verses bulking up its military to fight you. Destabilize in concert with a general program of culture-bombing. Use Culture & Party Palaces to establish cultural parity or dominance in a sector in conjunction with your destabilization expenditures;

2) Maximize influence resources. Since culture dominance is an important factor of defection, raising this bonus will assist your destabilization efforts and benefit your expenditures;

3) Invade destabilized planets having weakened Morales using Information Warfare. The dissaffected population amount will not add to the planet's defense (i.e., will not fight) but will, instead, join your Empire as the planet's base populace once captured. This will improve your combat odds, lower your casualties, increase your starting populace, and thus serve as a good culture-producing base in the midst of the opposing Empire;


#7 Sephlock: The AI's building strategy varies by Empire. Torians and Altarians build almost everything. However, the Yor are stingy, and the Drengin are downright Mongolian, emphasizing warships over improvements. Destabilization is thus more effective against the latter, catching them unprepared and forcing them to divert funds to +Morale/Resistance improvements.

#10, 13 Gerakken, Omega: The AI has gotten much better at handling poison pills in 1.05. This was one of my favorite tactics in 1.03 & 1.03. However, now the AI will merely build a colony ship/TR and embark excess population, or build the necessary social improvements.

I have concluded that you're just better off, for VP conditions, keeping your planets or invading about 10-20 turns later to take it back; the population is worth more than the money in MV submissions.



~SDC~