[Questionnaire] Are Monster-Faction Interactions a Problem?

I'll go first.

1. Yes. It is not clear to me how or why a monster acts. I am thus incapable of planning a way to deal with them.

2. Yes. There are too many Dragons and other powerful monsters that should be anywhere on the map until later in the game.

3. No. It seems to harass them too, but I can't see their cities most of the time, so how do I know.

4. Yes. A powerful endgame monster will randomly rampage through my territory from no actions on my part.

5. Yes. Losing a city from no strategic fault of my own is infuriating. 

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?

Yes and No.  Heck, they're monsters.  I don't mind wolves and mites acting randomly, but scary monsters should not act randomly.  They should target and destroy nearby passersby and outposts and cities.
 

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?

No.  If I adventure too far out, I run into some nasties... but that is what I would expect of a dangerous world.
 

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?

Yes.  I see too many "scary" monsters ignore AI troops, cities and outposts.

 
4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?

Yes.  And I'm ok with this.  I'm actually glad when it happens.  It should happen.
 

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?

No, but it does piss me off.  It's my own fault.

This is not a poll, it is a questionnaire inviting long drawn out discussions (the likes of which were already done to death in other threads).

A proper poll should condense the various view points from such a discussion into a single question and multiple choice answers where you pick out ONE of the answers and vote for it...

aka, people's sole answer should be "I vote A" or "I vote D" on the poll.

1. Yes, But unsure how this would be accomplished.

2. No, I like the danger.

3. Yes, I do see AI getting attacked, but seems to me that they do get a free pass too often.

4. No, but it does happen now and then.

5. No, I retreat and regroup.

1.  No,

2. No, they should be powerful

3.   Yes, monsters seems to ignore AI

4. Not really, although it has happened.

5.   Not directly.  But when a monsters wanders between three enemy outposts and cities to destroy mine it seems pretty odd.

Thanks guys. The point is to show the devs how many people have problems with the current state so they can decide if it is a priority to fix before release. Interesting viewpoints so far.

I'm just going to answer your subject question.

No.

1. No, generally I think they're ok.

2. Sometimes, generally not. Haven't played too many games but the last one had a dragon released from its roost by the AI it wandered back and forth for maybe 50 or 100 turns before taking out a city of mine (I had since conquered the area). Other than that no problem. And it was fun, anyways.

3. To some extent, yes. There was a fell dragon wandering in an area between 3 of Relias' cities for at least 50 turns (I could tell because I penetrated into that area once every several turns as the battle lines shifted). When I finally captured the closest one, within 5 turns he waddled in an sacked it. I'm certainly willing to put this down to small number statistics, but it still _felt_ fishy.

4. Only dragons.

5. If I feel like I didn't "deserve" it, I'll reload and shuffle troops around to fight it off. If, e.g., it's a menacing dragon that waited 50 turns to come knocking (see point 2) then I knew the city was living on borrowed time and that's how the dice fell.

1. Yes

2. No.

3. Yes.  When I can see them they will walk right by an ai unit or city to attack mine.   When I can't see them I have no idea.

4. Yes.  However, I am not sure that the frequency is "often".  I'd say sometimes.

5. No.  It's part of the fun of the game.  However, if 3 is true then this should not happen.

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?
Yes. I never know how the monster will react to my presence. This is especially jarring in the case of intelligent and/or highly territorial monster.

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?
No. The monster distribution seems pretty decent in my games. This has been much worse in previous betas.

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?
Yes. The AI does lose units, cities and outposts to monster, but it feels more like an accident and not intentional. Usually, monster go after me when angered by the AI players.

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?
No. While I have lost several cities in previous betas, it hasn't happened during beta 5. I still do get attacked, though.

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?
No. I have a pretty high tolerance to frustration.

I play on challenging: 

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly? Yes. It feels like they're rolling a d8 when determining where to move.

 

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful? Bandits, Wildlings, Wolves, Orges? They're very well balanced at the moment.

 

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters? No in the very early game, as often a monster wipes out a faction. Yes after season 20, AI don't seem to be touched. 

 

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters? Maybe once a game...if that. Often it's because something like a slag is roaming the countryside.

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing? I feel no shame.   I'm a re-loader. If the city can't be saved after re-loading once....it's gone and I keep playing.

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?

 Some are supposed to. But others shouldn't, especially when "random" translates into "brownian motion".

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?

No, it's nice to see monsters that I cannot handle and to have to plan how to deal with them.

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?

 Yes, absolutely.

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?

 Not lately, but this is because I design my races so that I have some way to deal with it.

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?

Not really... Well, not at once. I usually take revenge first, but the more stupid shit happens, more more likely I am to start a new game (I don't reload)

I play on normal.

1. Monster behaviour doesn't bother me - as long as they are at a level I can cope with.

2. In Beta 5 I find myself surrounded by extremely powerful monsters - dragons, Juggernauts and others that I have no reasonable chance of defeating until midgame. Typically they are guarding the most fertile tiles for expanding my kingdom - that part is really frustrating.

3. I continue to see the AI settling in close proximity to powerful monsters, dislodging them from their lairs. The monsters rarely attack the AI - they will often wander in my direction. Sometimes they simply pass through, sometimes they attack. If I settled in the same location. I would be attacked within a few turns - that part is frustrating.

4. Rarely.

5. Sometimes. If it's an above average game and I can recover from the loss, I'll keep playing. If a dragon attacks early - when I have no chance to defeat it - <CTRL> N!

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?  As a general rule, yes.  I don't mind wolves and mites wandering around aimlessly, as they're expected to be stupid and weak.  However, it doesn't make sense for a Fell Dragon to be pushed out of his home by a handful of defenseless settlers, and then wander halfway around the world to raise hell for an empire that had nothing to do with his eviction.  Instead, he should make a nice pioneer souffle and go back to his cave to nap until the next group of settlers foolishly tries to take the fertile soil next to his cave.  This is the kind of behavior that would be expected of a dragon, and having them behave nothing like expected is confusing and makes players believe the AI is somehow cheating.

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?  Not really, as long as their behavior is predictable.  I think that there's a pretty good balance between early game monsters that even a solo sovereign can take out and end-game monsters that will destroy you.  The problem is their behavior is too simple, which makes it seem random and unfair to the player.  To use the above example, if I find X'thi'lioth the Fell Dragon ten tiles away from me, my knowledge of how dragons operate says that any city whose zone of control hits his cave is going to die, whether it's my city or the AI's.   However, if I'm understanding Frogboy correctly, monster AI doesn't even know what a city IS, let alone how to make a beeline for one and eat it so it can remain undisturbed.  This makes for extremely counterintuitive monster AI behavior, and makes strong monsters seem even stronger.

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?  Not really.  I think there are still some kinks to be worked out with the simultaneous turns (I did once see a Krax army and a Storm Dragon hanging out on the same tile, but that was the only wonky behavior I've seen thus far), but other than that the AI does seem to have a tougher time with monsters than I do, judging by the number of injuries their champions take before any wars break out.

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?  Rarely, but when I do it's infuriating.  I've noticed that since .982, wildlands monsters are much more aggressive about leaving their territory, which sucks because I like having lots of wildlands to run around and conquer.  Sometimes it's not a problem; I don't mind seeing a lone shadow warg early game, because I can actually take care of it.  But when a hoarder spider and its army are threatening my only city at turn 13 (yes, this happened), I'm likely to ctrl-N or just quit for a little while.

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?  I just reload to a point where I can prevent that city from being lost.  Usually the most recent autosave is enough for me to put a tremor on the baddy until my champion's army can show up.

1. Yes.  

2. No.

3. Yes.

4. Yes.  

5. Yes. 

1.  Yes.  I hate it.  Many times due to this the initial perpetrator is not harmed/bothered.

2.  No.  Not at all.  There's like a weak zone near start then things get progressively worse/harder.  Till finally you're bounded by some really strong lair monsters,  which can really cause you to stop and think or say bye to your scouts. 

3.  Yes.  Absolutely yes.  I also feel like the AI doesn't give a crap about where it places anything either.   If it bothered to clear out lairs near resources/ settle spots it would help. As mentioned before/elsewhere,  the monster AI may not be getting a bite out of the Faction AI due to simultaneous turns.  This was kind of an Aha! Gotcha! moment for me.  It makes sense if it was/ is happening.   Lastly, in closing I just want to state for the record, in many times, to the average user out there who doesn't play with ctrl-U they way they see it is no matter how they play they are having to deal with Faction AI's messes and Faction AI does not pay the price (usually)  for disturbing lair monsters.

4.  No, not any more.  I will say that yes I did at first, but then I made sure to garrison all my cities with a basic garrison.  I also made and set aside an army to deal with incursions of the minor type.  But anything larger than a skath I typically have to use my best army (usually Sov's ) to clear because stupid mother father AI set off a lair and I have to deal with it. 

5.  If it was a key city, yes.  If it was anything like 4/2/any or 3/2/any I wouldn't cry.  Start losing city with three or better materials then it's tears/rage time.

1, Yes, in some cases.  I don't mind some monsters being dumb, but some monsters shouldn't be.  Monsters should have a logic to how they act, and it should vary by monster.

2. No, though occasionally you get unlucky.  I can live with the bad luck, games like this should have a luck factor.

3. No.  If so, not intentionally.  Only thing that would help is possibly having the monsters move in-between turns.

4. Often no, occasionally yes, and usually due to a wondering strong monster like a shrill lord.  THe low production means I build few units, esp early-game units.

5. Usually, but not always.  Depends on the situation.

1. Yes
2. Overall No
3. A little. (somewhere in between, I know they get attacked, but AI cities is getting a free pass).
4. No, not often, but when it happens its way out of my hands...
5. Generally no, but - Losing a KEY city to events out of my hand might make me quit, I will quit a few turns after I see the game as lost (very rarely, but happened once with an event spawning 3 epic level spider stacks near each of my cities, at turn 100 ish.)

Interesting Questions.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

1. Yes (at least where monster armies listed Medium or above are concerned because those can kill cities)

 2. Mostly no, but sometimes you start near a big one.

 3. Yes.  I think we've all seen AI cities in Forest Drake breeding grounds.

 4. Not often, sometimes.

 5. It can if it puts a big enough dent in my empire.  An earlier loss is harder to recover from than a later one.

I will say this.  If monsters could "capture/infest" a city and maybe destroy some buildings but not the whole thing so you could take it back, that would take a lot of the sting out but preserve the feel of danger in the world (I think Heavenfall suggested something like this).

I will answer two ways.

1. Vet Lan who's played EWOM and FE for 2 years - I like a challenge, even apparent nutty AI behavior. I'm ok with it.

2. Newb Lan who picks this game up for the first time and gets pwned by some dragon. Rage quit and hammer through my monitor. Wife then yells at me about spending money on a new monitor instead of shoes.

In all seriousness, the perception is the problem, despite assurances from Brad the code is simple and they aren't acting nutty. Just make the appearance "fair" and I think all is well.

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?

Not really.

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?

Sometimes, although my maps have been quite good about this recently. Earlier builds were worse, with Umberdroths and Knights of Asok very close to starting points and wrecking cities in the first few turns. Now it seems like medium-to-powerful monsters are guarding all the expansions, but I stand a chance of getting an army together who can fight them.

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?

Very yes. I do usually see a notice of one faction getting wiped out early, but I think that's from failing to found cities before getting killed. Otherwise I'm getting used to seeing cities guarded by dragons, and occasionally having a slag or party of umberdroths come out of nowhere having been released by the AI. Most egregious was a spider released by Magnar who ran across half the map on my road network to attack my capital - that was a few months ago admittedly, but it stuck with me.

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?

Occasionally, less so these days than when the problem was at its worst (around May, I think), when I would be guaranteed to lose at least one city to monsters from nowhere in each game.

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?

Yes, ragequit and start over feels like a better use of my time than trying to survive with a dragon wrecking all my cities. Losing a city to the AI, or having one destroyed because of recklessly settling near bears, I'll usually try to come back from, but random monsterage annoys me to much to make it worthwhile.

 
1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?

 Yes. I like random as if monsters were predictable, it would be boring. But they should get some "logical" paths, like don't going too far from their lairs.

Another thing is a "wanderer monster", but that should be specific for that kind.

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?
Yes. I have no problem with that, just leave the stronger lairs for later, and pray I will not wake them
 

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?
Yes. Although Frogboy says that AI fights with the monsters, I have seen too that of the dragon going straight my city.
 

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?
No. Not often, only sometimes. The problem is many of us get to expand a lot, but don't pay attention to make defending units, because of the well-known Warfare Tree is so slow and the high production cost for crappy units. Each turn a city is producing, is welcome, although it can be destroyed...But wasting production in useless troops makes nonsense: wasted the troop (they die quick), wasted the production, and wasted the city anyway.
 

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?
No. It's part of the game. In fact, the good game is when you lose cities. It means the game is challenging. I lost 4 cities in .983 to the AI, even trying to load game to prevent, but no way. Of course it makes rage, but that encourages to  play better in the next game.

1. Do you feel monsters act too randomly?

Yes and No. They should in general act randomly and attack anything out of their ordinary surroundings. Which leads to point 3.

2. Do you feel like early game monsters are too powerful?

No.

3. Do you feel like the Faction AI is getting a free pass with monsters?

Yes. While I cannot see AI cities, their outposts and units are most of the time (if not all the time) ignored by monsters which have no trouble running after my troops and destroying my resources

4. Do you often lose cities from wandering monsters?

Sometimes.

5. Does losing a city cause you to quit playing?

No. If I build a city close to a dragon, I'm risking a lot.

But if a monster wanders to my city from who-knows-where, that's definitely much more frustrating. But this applies to start of the game only. Later on, if I don't have city defenses or some armies which can intercept the monster then it's my fault.

1) yes but this is mostly caused by the ai free pass, towards player they are 90% ok imo

2)no in fact they are too weak

ai IS getting a free pass, we all checked so many times and its proved i refuse to answer a question when its a fact and cant be in a questionnaire for a poll

4) yes i usually build cities even if i know in N turns they will go down because cities are too op and there is no downside, having reserach and gold for N turns is still better than otherwise

5) only if it cause so much dmg i cant repair, in last builds losing a city isnt so bad you can rebuild nearby

this is not caused (at least the times i checked) by monsters attacking but its caused by ai not placing first town and wandering alone and eventually dying