ZombiesRus5 ZombiesRus5

What killed pacts and envoy's in multiplayer?

What killed pacts and envoy's in multiplayer?

It's a pretty well known fact, or should be, that Envoy's and Pacts are dead in the current competitive multi-player.

I'm ok with the fact that it's largely a single player or friend only feature, but it does seem odd that this feature has all but disappeared from any competitive game play which kind of sucks.

 

I know pacts were changed with a Diplomacy (1.21?) patch making them harder to get as well as balancing them out so they weren't so *shock* OP (which by the way was a change well after the release). Envoy abilities were also changed to be better supposedly. I don't think the intent was to essentially remove their use from MP though.

 

Is it the bi-directional relationship requirement that pretty much caused them to disappear? 

Are the cost/benefits too high after the pacts were re-balanced?

Are pacts and envoy's actually good and we just lost the desire or knowledge to use them?

 

I'm not calling for any changes at this point which would be moot... Just curious what people think happened over the history of this feature or if it's something that should be used and isn't.

 

50,994 views 74 replies
Reply #26 Top

I can agree with that last point.  Only things like the advent's 3rd ability(Foget what it's called) should be use-activated.

-Twi /)

Reply #27 Top

This all comes down to eco spot players not sparing credits to send envoys to follow there allies fleet(colony Cap) or there homeworld.

Its just a matter of micro-financing where you get population maxed, trade maxed and at-least 1 envoy per ally available.

The credits are available.

 

Tec and Vasari envoys are sent to the allies homeworld. Only 1 will suffice.

Advent envoys are sent to follow your allies main fleet(cap) due to their military bonuses and frontline culture assistance.

 

In the higher tiers you usually get techs that help boost how fast you gain relationships in some way so 1 envoy in a 45 min game could get you at-least 2 pacts.

 

Reply #28 Top

I figured it out! After all, Rebellion's tagline is "The time for diplomacy is over." Clearly the devs intended to nerf the diplomacy system...trollolol

But seriously, I always found the dual, double-edged relationship system to be very awkward.

Reply #29 Top

The credits are available.

Sure, if you are facing AI's...

Do you play any challenging games, riddleking?

If you want to be a good eco position player, you won't have magical credits to spare.  These ships also take up logistics slots, and a % loss in income in an eco position due to logistics upgrades can spell doom in the long term.

Reply #30 Top

I used envoys and pacts once in MP - I think it was with Howthe? many months ago. I've kind of forgotten they exist since then. I like how the AI uses them immediately upon a player dropping. Helps you to keep track of who dropped and who hasn't. On serious note, I think they could find their way into MP on a minimal investment 1 or 2 envoys/ 1 or 2 pacts kind of level in some games. I honestly do just forget that they are there at all. 

Reply #31 Top

Quoting sareth01, reply 30

The credits are available.

Sure, if you are facing AI's...

Do you play any challenging games, riddleking?

If you want to be a good eco position player, you won't have magical credits to spare.  These ships also take up logistics slots, and a % loss in income in an eco position due to logistics upgrades can spell doom in the long term.

Ships take up logistics slots now? 

-Lord Brony

Reply #32 Top

As a non-MP player, you can and probably will completely discredit this, but...

I would like to put forth the possibility that rebellion offers better research strategies earlier for all the factions. Nothing has improved the diplomatic route.

As stated, now there are Titans and it's kind of a race to get there. The Bi-directional relationship thing has always been there and has always sucked. These both contribute to the lack of pacts, but I think they are only obstacles.

Since there are better, more interesting things to go for right away, there is no motivation to overcome them.

Proposal: Make a somewhat early pact or research that requires an active pact, generic to all factions that reduces Titan overhead a bit... even if only for the first titan. Then you got at least one guy gunning for the diplomatic path so that his team gets Titans faster. The trade off is they will probably be a bit more vulnerable at this time, but what do you think?

Reply #33 Top

Pacts are not difficult to get and the method is pretty straightforward:  Blow up stuff and complete/offer missions until you get in the good graces of another faction; plus research the three relationship improvement techs. This will get you to a Trade Pact with at least one other player (depending on how much they hate you to start with), which will further increase your standing if you actually do trade. From there it doesn't take long to secure a Peace Treaty and you're off to the races.

Some factions will simply not respond to any diplomatic strategy without herculean effort:  loyalist vs. rebel factions of the same race tend to hate one another; TEC Rebels despise every xenos faction.  Vasari Rebels are the easiest to accomplish diplomacy with as they want to work together to escape this region of space with everyone they can. 

Reply #34 Top

No one bothers with them in locked team games even with the initial 10 relationship point standing. 

Reply #35 Top

Is there a comprehensive thread on how to get in good with a specific group?  Yarlen just covered a good deal of it, but I've always struggled with the Diplomacy portion of the game.  Most likely user-error.  ;P

-Huzzah!

Reply #36 Top

As has been noted above, in multiplayer the way it is currently run by a very small group of very active players, most of the benefits of envoys are discarded and the pace of the game that they force you play through the preconditions on the game that they impose is such that envoys and pacts are not worth the investment in research and, ultimately, fleet capacity.

It bears repeating, however, that this is a diminution of the game, not an improvement.  The "cage match" mentality, and the attitude that comes with it, simply throws away a lot of features that provide an additional layer of complexity and enjoyment to the vast majority of players (going by total title sales vs. number of "cage match" advocates).

 

Reply #37 Top

Quoting HLT, reply 37
As has been noted above, in multiplayer the way it is currently run by a very small group of very active players, most of the benefits of envoys are discarded and the pace of the game that they force you play through the preconditions on the game that they impose is such that envoys and pacts are not worth the investment in research and, ultimately, fleet capacity.

It bears repeating, however, that this is a diminution of the game, not an improvement.  The "cage match" mentality, and the attitude that comes with it, simply throws away a lot of features that provide an additional layer of complexity and enjoyment to the vast majority of players (going by total title sales vs. number of "cage match" advocates).

 

True. In 5v5 locked ppl games there's not much room for envoys. However in single player and other multiplayer games they can be quite useful, especially where there's a number of powerful AI that humans try to partner up with quickly to take down other humans. Otherwise victory through "diplomacy" just doesn't happen (unless you play with diplomacy victory condition, which I haven't seen the MP community play).

Reply #38 Top

Quoting HLT, reply 37

It bears repeating, however, that this is a diminution of the game, not an improvement.  The "cage match" mentality, and the attitude that comes with it, simply throws away a lot of features that provide an additional layer of complexity and enjoyment to the vast majority of players (going by total title sales vs. number of "cage match" advocates).

 

Quoting CoronalFire, reply 38
True. In 5v5 locked ppl games there's not much room for envoys. However in single player and other multiplayer games they can be quite useful, especially where there's a number of powerful AI that humans try to partner up with quickly to take down other humans. Otherwise victory through "diplomacy" just doesn't happen (unless you play with diplomacy victory condition, which I haven't seen the MP community play).

You could make that argument with the faster settings, but given how long games of Sins can take that is a necessity in multiplayer, no one necessarily wants that by choice. No one would ever play games if they were going to take 5 hours each.

However, arguing that it's just the style of play that prevents envoys doesn't seem to be a valid criticism to me. Playing "cage match" games are the only way to prove which strategies are truly viable and those that aren't. If a strategy is not worth executing under pressure, then it's probably not worth executing at all. Sure you might be able to "get away" with it against the AI, but you probably could have won much faster had you used a strategy that does hold up when you're fighting for your life.

Now it is true that the long term investment nature of envoys means that in many multiplayer situations they are in effect unaffordable because you have to commit all your resources to staying alive. However, that only applies to a player on the front line who is losing. The player that is winning has more scope for investment, and he could choose to send envoys to the economic players for the long term benefits they offer. However, it is still never done because quite simply there are better investments that don't require you to tie up fleet supply in useless ships (until you max out the tech tree it's quicker to just invest in that, and you rarely do that in multiplayer).

There is also the fact that envoys do take a bit of micromanagement, and fleet battles against humans require all the time you can spare to direct them. Thus really the eco players are the ones that should be using envoys in MP games, as they have the time and money available to get access to them, and they'll probably benefit the most in the end. And before pacts required both factions to maintain relationships, this is roughly what happened, as pacts where a useful way for economy players to help both themselves and their best frontline players. But now that both players need to maintain relations, there's no one for the eco players to send envoys to, except the rare double eco setup, so eco players focus on feed and titans instead.

Now it's certainly fine to argue it's not fun to play in this kind of set up. But if we're trying to debate whether pacts are really viable, I have to say you need to use the multiplayer frame of mind to judge it with.

Reply #39 Top

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 39

Quoting HLT, reply 37
It bears repeating, however, that this is a diminution of the game, not an improvement.  The "cage match" mentality, and the attitude that comes with it, simply throws away a lot of features that provide an additional layer of complexity and enjoyment to the vast majority of players (going by total title sales vs. number of "cage match" advocates).

 


Quoting CoronalFire, reply 38True. In 5v5 locked ppl games there's not much room for envoys. However in single player and other multiplayer games they can be quite useful, especially where there's a number of powerful AI that humans try to partner up with quickly to take down other humans. Otherwise victory through "diplomacy" just doesn't happen (unless you play with diplomacy victory condition, which I haven't seen the MP community play).

You could make that argument with the faster settings, but given how long games of Sins can take that is a necessity in multiplayer, no one necessarily wants that by choice. No one would ever play games if they were going to take 5 hours each.

However, arguing that it's just the style of play that prevents envoys doesn't seem to be a valid criticism to me. Playing "cage match" games are the only way to prove which strategies are truly viable and those that aren't. If a strategy is not worth executing under pressure, then it's probably not worth executing at all. Sure you might be able to "get away" with it against the AI, but you probably could have won much faster had you used a strategy that does hold up when you're fighting for your life.

...

 

 The team arrangements, victory conditions, and maps used should also be taken into consideration.  Considering most of the 5v5 matches I see are on a large single star random map, that kind of forges particular strategies in which certain ships and technologies aren't used.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting mascan, reply 40
The team arrangements, victory conditions, and maps used should also be taken into consideration.

How so?

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 39
You could make that argument with the faster settings, but given how long games of Sins can take that is a necessity in multiplayer, no one necessarily wants that by choice. No one would ever play games if they were going to take 5 hours each.

I don't know if that's the reason why MP has 'settled' on the particular settings it has. It just seems to me that everyone expects settings A,B, and C and if it instead had settings A, C and D you're doing it wrong. For instance, the capital ship victory would speed games up, not slow them down, but I doubt that sees MP play. Not entirely the point, but if the settings were truely decided in a 'survival of the fittest' type of way (as you seemed to imply) there is no reason all victory conditions should not be enabled.

Quoting mascan, reply 40
that kind of forges particular strategies in which certain ships and technologies aren't used

As for other speed settings, find a map size and tweak the speed settings to a point where the other strategies aren't suppressed. Make sure it doesn't take all day to finish, make up a name for that style (so that people know what they are getting into) and host it. See if it catches on. You might want to make a post about it so you can refer people to it who have not heard of it.

I do not see the speed settings as the obstacle, but I can see how different income rates and ship speeds might affect this and prove me wrong.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 41
I don't know if that's the reason why MP has 'settled' on the particular settings it has. It just seems to me that everyone expects settings A,B, and C and if it instead had settings A, C and D you're doing it wrong. For instance, the capital ship victory would speed games up, not slow them down, but I doubt that sees MP play. Not entirely the point, but if the settings were truely decided in a 'survival of the fittest' type of way (as you seemed to imply) there is no reason all victory conditions should not be enabled.

I've played capitalship victory in MP before. It was one of the funnest games I've ever played, though there is some cheese tactics you can pull there that probably explain why it's not more popular (I.e. using a marauder to infinitely lock down a flagship with phase out hull).

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 41
I do not see the speed settings as the obstacle, but I can see how different income rates and ship speeds might affect this and prove me wrong.

Speed settings make a huge difference. Play a game with faster income and normal everything else. ;)

 

Reply #42 Top

 

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 42


Speed settings make a huge difference. Play a game with faster income and normal everything else.

 

 

 Is this common?  I might try this...

Reply #43 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 39


However, arguing that it's just the style of play that prevents envoys doesn't seem to be a valid criticism to me. Playing "cage match" games are the only way to prove which strategies are truly viable and those that aren't. If a strategy is not worth executing under pressure, then it's probably not worth executing at all. Sure you might be able to "get away" with it against the AI, but you probably could have won much faster had you used a strategy that does hold up when you're fighting for your life.

Now it is true that the long term investment nature of envoys means that in many multiplayer situations they are in effect unaffordable because you have to commit all your resources to staying alive. However, that only applies to a player on the front line who is losing. The player that is winning has more scope for investment, and he could choose to send envoys to the economic players for the long term benefits they offer. However, it is still never done because quite simply there are better investments that don't require you to tie up fleet supply in useless ships (until you max out the tech tree it's quicker to just invest in that, and you rarely do that in multiplayer).

There is also the fact that envoys do take a bit of micromanagement, and fleet battles against humans require all the time you can spare to direct them. Thus really the eco players are the ones that should be using envoys in MP games, as they have the time and money available to get access to them, and they'll probably benefit the most in the end. And before pacts required both factions to maintain relationships, this is roughly what happened, as pacts where a useful way for economy players to help both themselves and their best frontline players. But now that both players need to maintain relations, there's no one for the eco players to send envoys to, except the rare double eco setup, so eco players focus on feed and titans instead.

Now it's certainly fine to argue it's not fun to play in this kind of set up. But if we're trying to debate whether pacts are really viable, I have to say you need to use the multiplayer frame of mind to judge it with.

 

I have to disagree. In 5v5 pro teams are locked, and envoys are only good for pacts and abilities. With a more FFA style envoys are actually useful in establishing relationships and forming teams, along with pacts and abilities. This is the difference I was driving for.

Play a 5v5 locked and see how useful envoys are. Then play a 3 human vs 3 human vs 3 unfair (or cruel or whatever is competitive), with teams unlocked, and see if envoys are any more useful.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting mascan, reply 43
Is this common? I might try this...

No, I was searching for an extreme example to prove my point, but it might be fun to try. ;)

Quoting CoronalFire, reply 44
I have to disagree. In 5v5 pro teams are locked, and envoys are only good for pacts and abilities. With a more FFA style envoys are actually useful in establishing relationships and forming teams, along with pacts and abilities. This is the difference I was driving for.

Yeah, but the problem is you can't have unlocked teams in multiplayer. People will make informal alliance, kill everyone else then they have all the time in the world to get relationships up for the allied victory. Which I believe could be as many as 9 players, given that the maximum victors option was removed in Rebellion. If you play a FFA in multiplayer, it is going to be on locked teams, so diplomacy is totally pointless in that case anyways.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 45


Yeah, but the problem is you can't have unlocked teams in multiplayer. People will make informal alliance, kill everyone else then they have all the time in the world to get relationships up for the allied victory. Which I believe could be as many as 9 players, given that the maximum victors option was removed in Rebellion. If you play a FFA in multiplayer, it is going to be on locked teams, so diplomacy is totally pointless in that case anyways.

 

True, but in the above scenario I posted, teams are already divided. Plus, the envoys are basically fighting for the AI to join your team, not for other humans to join your team. And I have played a few FFA with unlocked teams -- those games do exist.

Reply #46 Top

I've played onlocked FFA PvP and envoys with pacts establish allies as they penalize going to war as you loose the pacts which is somewhat useful.

That said it's painful to setup and establish and imo ruin most of the diplomacy aspect of the PvP game. In other words establishing pacts is not very satisfying. 

The whole Envoy/Pact system is fairly broken again IMO as evidence by the fact that it is NOT used in the mainstream PvP games. 

While it can be used in FFA and AI games it is a whole section of the game and expansion that gets zero use in locked team games. I just get tired of aspects of this game that are limited in this fashion.

Reply #47 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 47
I've played onlocked FFA PvP and envoys with pacts establish allies as they penalize going to war as you loose the pacts which is somewhat useful.

That said it's painful to setup and establish and imo ruin most of the diplomacy aspect of the PvP game. In other words establishing pacts is not very satisfying. 

The whole Envoy/Pact system is fairly broken again IMO as evidence by the fact that it is NOT used in the mainstream PvP games. 

While it can be used in FFA and AI games it is a whole section of the game and expansion that gets zero use in locked team games. I just get tired of aspects of this game that are limited in this fashion.

Since the whole point of locked teams is that there is no diplomacy, why is it a fault of the diplomacy module that it has greatly diminished use in such situations?  Locked team games in a restricted environment are a deliberate reduction of the game along certain predetermined parameters, and diplomacy is one of the modules that is thus intentionally jettisoned.

There might still be a use for diplomacy/envoys/pacts in such situations, except that the limited scope of these games and accelerated pace of activity render this approach impractical.

In any case, given the extremely limited number/percentage of players who participate in this sub-genre, why would Stardock want to modify the game (and probably mess it up for most of us) just for the benefit of a few people?  500,000 + games sold overall, count the number of active multiplayers, and do the math.

Reply #48 Top

Quoting HLT, reply 48
In any case, given the extremely limited number/percentage of players who participate in this sub-genre, why would Stardock want to modify the game (and probably mess it up for most of us) just for the benefit of a few people? 500,000 + games sold overall, count the number of active multiplayers, and do the math.

I think it's pretty clear the aren't going to change anything about Diplomacy. But even in Single player they could make it better. In my Enhanced 4X Mod I added "Embassies" (which was actually the first plan for Diplomacy) to do the job that envoy cruisers do now, except as they don't cost fleet supply so you don't hurt your military by building a bunch of cruisers that don't do anything. It also saves micromanaging work, and encourages players to build embassies on every planet just for the beneficial buffs for their allies. More utility + easier to use = better system, for everyone.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 49

Quoting HLT, reply 48In any case, given the extremely limited number/percentage of players who participate in this sub-genre, why would Stardock want to modify the game (and probably mess it up for most of us) just for the benefit of a few people? 500,000 + games sold overall, count the number of active multiplayers, and do the math.

I think it's pretty clear the aren't going to change anything about Diplomacy. But even in Single player they could make it better. In my Enhanced 4X Mod I added "Embassies" (which was actually the first plan for Diplomacy) to do the job that envoy cruisers do now, except as they don't cost fleet supply so you don't hurt your military by building a bunch of cruisers that don't do anything. It also saves micromanaging work, and encourages players to build embassies on every planet just for the beneficial buffs for their allies. More utility + easier to use = better system, for everyone.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 49

Quoting HLT, reply 48In any case, given the extremely limited number/percentage of players who participate in this sub-genre, why would Stardock want to modify the game (and probably mess it up for most of us) just for the benefit of a few people? 500,000 + games sold overall, count the number of active multiplayers, and do the math.

I think it's pretty clear the aren't going to change anything about Diplomacy. But even in Single player they could make it better. In my Enhanced 4X Mod I added "Embassies" (which was actually the first plan for Diplomacy) to do the job that envoy cruisers do now, except as they don't cost fleet supply so you don't hurt your military by building a bunch of cruisers that don't do anything. It also saves micromanaging work, and encourages players to build embassies on every planet just for the beneficial buffs for their allies. More utility + easier to use = better system, for everyone.

Aaaand..I hit post before I had actually composed my reply.  Again. *_*   Sorry, I don't use smileys much, but I just like that one.

Anyway, I think the idea of embassies is great, and an improvement on the current system.  What I would suggest, however, is that they work like constructors/starbases, where you need to send the ship and then convert it to the permanent installation, rather than just buy it from a distance.  Unless that's already the plan, of course.  What do you think?