New 0.951 Impression

from Elemental Forums

Ok was looking at some of the changes done in 0.951... And I must say im dissapointed by some balance changes, ill give a reason.

Edit: Hate to be so negative, so when you read this, imagine its written in a happy tone, about the difficulty. :)

Spell level 1 costing 2 instead of 1.
The new pariden leader is really useless, it is not worth having more than 1 magic type now, due to the heavy cost of 2 pics for each new level 1 magic engaged in, now she starts with lvl 1 water, life and air, but builds buildings 25% slower (possibly even the worst of the weaknesses! especially without enchanted hammers at start to help boost production).
I honestly think increasing the cost of level 1 magic was a mistake, and cannot see the reason to do this, (If its due to everyone picking earth magic to get enchanted hammers, try moving it to level 2 earth magic).

Inspiration:
This enchant City got really OP IMO, I will NOT start at a starting location with less than 2 essence in the new beta due to the huge setback in research, (Or the huge boost in research due to this new enchantment)... Honestly, compared to the 1 starting research gained due to having a level 1 town, the first +4 (for a 2 essence town), or +6 (from a 3 essence town) is a MASSIVE improvement, giving you that prestige tech, +production tech, and +grain tech really really early. I was already spamming Inspiration on all my cities to get a lead in the research race, now its just ridiculous >_<.

Sovereigns Call:
Oh, we have this fancy growth system based on prestige... Guess not >_<...
I really feel moving this down to a starting enchantment makes 2 essence cities with 4 grain and 2 materials super powerful starts... While this can present more interesting choices, I don't think it should stop non-essence starts from being useful.

Sorry to be so negative, but I really think you stomped on the Balance this late patch, will play a few games and then... wait until balance returns to a more playable level O_o.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

16,135 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Sorry you feel that way.

However, the idea is to give players real choices. That is, being able to trivially add every spell book to your custom sovereign robs the custom sovereigns of any real choice -- it is always better to have all the spell books, therefore, selecting them all isn't really a choice and isn't as fun (imo).

I think I agree on Inspiration giving 2 per essence being too much.  It was my suggestion and I'm having mixed feelings about it now.

Sovereign's call I really do like because it makes it a tougher decision on whether to go with one of the other enchantments on a city. I like that one a lot.

 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Sorry you feel that way.

However, the idea is to give players real choices. That is, being able to trivially add every spell book to your custom sovereign robs the custom sovereigns of any real choice -- it is always better to have all the spell books, therefore, selecting them all isn't really a choice and isn't as fun (imo).

I think I agree on Inspiration giving 2 per essence being too much.  It was my suggestion and I'm having mixed feelings about it now.

Sovereign's call I really do like because it makes it a tougher decision on whether to go with one of the other enchantments on a city. I like that one a lot.

 

Thanks for the answer (and not taking it too harshly), a bit tired so it became very hard to write my concerns in... a proper tone (sry if I get off angry, just want this game to be as good as I hope it will be... you know, fanboy and all :P)

I understand why you did what you did with spellbooks, and it might be a good decision, my problem probably lies with the design on paridens sovereign more than with the spellbooks in general.

Sovereigns call, I understand why you like the extra choice, I really want more enchant choices too, I just don't like sovereigns call at all, since, well it does really much eliminate the need for prestige, since it gives a pretty massive boost to growth, I would really down-tone the boost to growth on that spell. (It will still be worth it, trust me ;))

My biggest problems with city enchants is really that they scale with the amount of essence in the town (If you have 2 essence, Inspiration and Sovereigns Call give Twice as much)

About Your thoughts on inspiration, if you agree then no problem, I can see the need to try it out once in a while.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I think you're super awesome Kongdej with your activity on here, so it's with regret that I have to say I disagree with all of your points. I want powerful city enchants. I want to seriously boost my research or growth or mana or whatever. I love the exponential growth with more essence. Give me MOAR power! I want a game about magic that feels truly magical.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

There is some newish tag in the Elementaldefs.xml that says all starting positions must be 5/2/2. If that is something you guys are working on, it solves many problems with the starts. Maybe that is not a functional tag though, because I am still getting 1 out of 5 good starting positions.

As to Sov's call, it's fine in the new spot, but it does too much. .5 per Essence is much more reasonable, unless you are planning some additional changes to growth balance. With the way city level exponentially increases research with no buildings needed, you are better off with Sov's call for research than inspiration in the long run. I think things are in the right spot in the tech tree now, but the numbers need some adjusting.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
However, the idea is to give players real choices. That is, being able to trivially add every spell book to your custom sovereign robs the custom sovereigns of any real choice -- it is always better to have all the spell books, therefore, selecting them all isn't really a choice and isn't as fun (imo).

 

Hmm? I found that I'm usually better off with only one or two, with the rest of the points going towards traits. Even as a mage, you won't really be able to split your level-ups on more than that unless you reach truly absurd experience levels. That isn't to say I disagree with the decision. Personally I thought the system was too much in favor of starting with Apprentice which was worth spells plus access to the entire line, to be increased later on with a level or two while the rest of the points were spent on unique traits.

 

I think I agree on Inspiration giving 2 per essence being too much.  It was my suggestion and I'm having mixed feelings about it now.

 

That is way too much for the early game and pretty much makes Essence a requirement. Personally I'd go for a +1 Research per Essence again, or even +0.5 Research per Essence, then maybe +10% to the city's final Research. Good later on but not one of those absolute essentials at the start when everybody is struggling for Research options. As is, Inspiration is a must-cast that more than triples your starting research rates.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

You could always make it 1 + 1 / Essence if you want it to be a little stronger for low essence cities but not scale in a powerful way. I think its fine at 1/essence though.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Remember though: the benefits of material and grain increase throughout the game via city growth/buildings and technological advances, whereas the benefits of essence stay the same, aside from one conclave bonus. Either you make essence powerful compared to early game buildings -the way inspiration is now- and weak late-game, or you have to make it scale.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I have to agree with the OP on the point of inspiration. It's just too good, especially at the low low price of 5 mana. It's so OP that it might merit a quick patch, and if it doesn't, I'll probably end up modding my copy. My only question is whether the AI would automatically be aware of a reduction in inspiration's effectiveness, or whether I really have to worry about that. Seanw3? Heavenfall? Eh?

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

The AI has a value of each spell. This is actually a moddable value, so you can decrease it if you think the AI likes it too much. There is a tag called <AIvalue> for pretty much everything in the game. That said, even at 1 research per essence, you should almost always have this in the start.

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Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting malichai11, reply 3
I think you're super awesome Kongdej with your activity on here, so it's with regret that I have to say I disagree with all of your points. I want powerful city enchants. I want to seriously boost my research or growth or mana or whatever. I love the exponential growth with more essence. Give me MOAR power! I want a game about magic that feels truly magical.

I'm Sorry we don't agree, don't take it all too negatively.
I just thought it was really sad to see my starts without essence (yes I saw one out of 3 starts so far), is not really a reliable start since the massive boost, where earlier it could be "ok". :S
I just think each different starting location should be equally "Viable".

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Frogboy, think about it this way:

Would you ever NOT cast inspiration on your capital when you start the game? Even if it was just 1 research / essence.

You want to do that every single time in every single game. High research early game is the one most imporant thing in 4X games if you min-max, it's not a choice at all. It just gimps poor players who don't realize to do this.

 

What if you had to keep a caster with the appropriate proficiency in the city to maintain enchantments? Not being able to adventure with your sovereign / champ to maintain an enchantment would be a real choice. It would also give incentives to have a magical champ proficient in multiple spellbooks to be able to maintain different enchantments in the city.