Kalanar1122

Knights of Asok ruining my early game.

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Knights of Asok ruining my early game.

from Elemental Forums

What the heck? So I get around to my third game on the recent build and I finally realize the way to keep apace with the AI is to settle lightly defended towns as quickly as possible.

But now the Knights of "way overpowered for this early in the game" come and destroy one of these towns. This is balls.

Please, I don't know what's going to attack my town and whats not. I see tons of monsters and I have no idea what's going to actually threaten my expansion. Some like to stay still, others wander around. And who knows how they behave towards the AI, because they end up doubling my amount of settlements in the same amount of time.

I was hoping The Knights of "Assuck" would ignore my pitiful settlement, but instead FE has provided me with yet another hour long game that ends in a rage quit.

 

112,918 views 49 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting jshores, reply 24
I think Glowing Ember is right. If not, I like Bellack's idea and that code is actually already in place for some of the other lairs. Could have a weaker version at the start of the game, that upgrades after x-amount of turns. It amounts to about 10 minutes of xml changes. 

In AOW:SM you could when you make a map do something similar to what I suggested and it reall works well. Personally I think the more options they allow us to toggle the better the game will be for everyone.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 25

Quoting jshores, reply 21
Kalin,

We are only talking a little bit of map scripting to save the players time restarting. Yes, the burden is on the developer. I've seen your past posting history and I expect 0 rational discussion from you when you feel the developers are being criticized, so let's agree to disagree. I think the burden of building the map should fall on the developers, and you think it should fall to the players via ctrl-n. I like burgers, you like tacos, have a nice day.


Okay wait, what the hell is that suppose to mean? If you have REALLY seen my posts, then you would know that I have always acknowledged that map generation still needs work. That doesn't mean I'm not realistic about where monsters can be placed. A little bit of map scripting? Have you seriously looked at the map lately? Due to memory limitations, the map size isn't super large... and there are many people who thinks that players are being placed too close to one another as it is. There's very little room where you can put "strong" monsters that would not be near somebody, unless if by little, you mean, don't put any strong monsters at all? Then sure, I'll agree to disagree with you. I like having some challenging monsters around. Good day to you.

 

I really like famous Dave's pulled pork burgers. And yes, I absolutely think it is a small amount of map scripting work. If you use bellacks idea, 10 minutes of xml work. Actually, 5 minutes of excel work since they use a spreadsheet to generate the xml.

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jshores, reply 19
Can you provide us with an example game start that turns an impossible encounter with KoAs into a challenging encounter within the first 20 turns?

 

While I generally agree that they wander too far and are too OP early game, I've successfully dealt with them a few times.  Those few times have always been immensely satisfying though. 

I'll get both my sovereign and my initial champion into an army, with either a unit I trained (usually a spearmen, as I'll go that route if I see them near my start) or the two bandits I always start with.  If they're in my territory, I'll pillar of flame them for ~20 damage to weaken them up, then hit them with my 2 champion army.  That's been enough to kill them when I can actually get all of the pieces into place.  But ya, it requires fire magic and bandit lord, or extra time training units.

I like the silver tongue idea as well, that's an awesome solution to the problem.

 

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Poko8, reply 28

Quoting jshores, reply 19Can you provide us with an example game start that turns an impossible encounter with KoAs into a challenging encounter within the first 20 turns?

 

While I generally agree that they wander too far and are too OP early game, I've successfully dealt with them a few times.  Those few times have always been immensely satisfying though. 

I'll get both my sovereign and my initial champion into an army, with either a unit I trained (usually a spearmen, as I'll go that route if I see them near my start) or the two bandits I always start with.  If they're in my territory, I'll pillar of flame them for ~20 damage to weaken them up, then hit them with my 2 champion army.  That's been enough to kill them when I can actually get all of the pieces into place.  But ya, it requires fire magic and bandit lord, or extra time training units.

I like the silver tongue idea as well, that's an awesome solution to the problem.

 

Someone suggested using tremor as well, but it stinks having to design your sovereign around one early game encounter. Hopefully it is fixed in .915

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Glowing_Ember, reply 23

sigh... code to keep the knights in "check"

 

something along the line of ... defend my "base", stay within 10 tiles of it, if i hit my border then return to base.

 

see its not that hard.

 

chase someone for 3 turns, if i don't catch them, return to base...

This does absolutely nothing to address:

 

Quoting Kalin, reply 16
If you really can't do this, then scout better and avoid their general area in the early game. Sometimes it's not possible (like if they are blocking your primary path out), in that case, Ctrl+N and chalk it up to bad start.

If they are blocking a 10x10 (or in your suggestion a 20x20 area), then it really doesn't help at all. They will patrol the area and kill everything you send through, so you still need to get rid of them somehow or restart. The biggest problem I have with this idea, is that, right now, the absolutely EASIEST way to deal with KoAs, is to just get a unit (say a pioneer) to lure them really really far away. Then they become someone else's problem. Yes, I've done this very early game.

 

Quoting jshores, reply 27

And yes, I absolutely think it is a small amount of map scripting work. If you use bellacks idea, 10 minutes of xml work. Actually, 5 minutes of excel work since they use a spreadsheet to generate the xml.

Ahahahaha, that's a good one. Sure, 10 minutes to add options to the game. Let me know what you think when you release a mod that try to do this. I'm sure you won't bother to test anything out to see if it works, and heck, let's not bother to read all the crying people do when they don't like it. Honestly, if it was so easy, all of us would have made 3... no 10 games by now.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Poko8, reply 28

Quoting jshores, reply 19Can you provide us with an example game start that turns an impossible encounter with KoAs into a challenging encounter within the first 20 turns?

While I generally agree that they wander too far and are too OP early game, I've successfully dealt with them a few times.  Those few times have always been immensely satisfying though. 

I'll get both my sovereign and my initial champion into an army, with either a unit I trained (usually a spearmen, as I'll go that route if I see them near my start) or the two bandits I always start with.  If they're in my territory, I'll pillar of flame them for ~20 damage to weaken them up, then hit them with my 2 champion army.  That's been enough to kill them when I can actually get all of the pieces into place.  But ya, it requires fire magic and bandit lord, or extra time training units.

I like the silver tongue idea as well, that's an awesome solution to the problem.

 

Heh, it was serendipity really, but turned out to be the main use I got out of the ability in that game. Weirdly it doesn't seem to work on other ally units that can be gained through world resources (e.g. Ogres or Wildlings) as they're the wrong unit types, but the KoAs seem to have no resistance (whereas even lowly spearmen from the AI sides sometimes resist). I called it cheese earlier but actually I'm assuming it's a feature, and no worse than a beastmaster taming a cave bear or whatever. Especially since the other benefits of Diplomat don't seem to work.

Going a little off-topic, Poko8, how does the bandit starting ability work out for you? Do you generally manage to keep them alive for much of the game? The only time I used it they were killed off in my first serious battle, although by that point they had helped my sovereign & champion level a bit so it wasn't a total waste, but seemed less effective than Summoner, for example. When I played against the custom character I created the AI seemed to have the same problem.

Quoting jshores, reply 27
I really like famous Dave's pulled pork burgers.

That sounds really good. So hungry :drool:

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Any reason we can't just say "turn world difficulty to easy and monsters to sparse" if you are going to whine about the world being difficult.   If you don't like roaming monsters in the early game turn them off, there is an option for this.  

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 30
Ahahahaha, that's a good one. Sure, 10 minutes to add options to the game. Let me know what you think when you release a mod that try to do this. I'm sure you won't bother to test anything out to see if it works, and heck, let's not bother to read all the crying people do when they don't like it. Honestly, if it was so easy, all of us would have made 3... no 10 games by now.

 

Here is the code from the Troll shaman lair (Courtesy of a thread in the modding forum).

Code: xml
  3. <span>  &lt;GoodieHutType InternalName="Lair_TrollShaman"&gt;</span>
  4. <span>        &lt;Name&gt;Shaman&#39;s Hut&lt;/Name&gt;</span>
  5. <span>        &lt;Description&gt;From the simple shack&#39;s chimney, smoke rises. Smoke of a brilliant, unearthly blue... the smoke of a channeler&#39;s fire.. Potions of some sort are being brewed.&lt;/Description&gt;</span>
  6. <span>        &lt;Rarity&gt;-1&lt;/Rarity&gt;</span>
  7. <span>        &lt;AutoDestroyWhenNoGuardians&gt;1&lt;/AutoDestroyWhenNoGuardians&gt;</span>
  8. <span>        &lt;LikelihoodOfTreasureDropWhenAutoDestroyed&gt;100&lt;/LikelihoodOfTreasureDropWhenAutoDestroyed&gt;</span>
  9. <span>        &lt;BarredTerrain&gt;River&lt;/BarredTerrain&gt;</span>
  10. <span>        &lt;PreferredTerrain&gt;Forest&lt;/PreferredTerrain&gt;</span>
  11. <span>        &lt;PreferredTerrain&gt;SwampTerrain&lt;/PreferredTerrain&gt;</span>
  12. <span>        &lt;ReleaseGuardiansOnInfluenceHit&gt;1&lt;/ReleaseGuardiansOnInfluenceHit&gt;</span>
  13. <span>        &lt;SpawnRating&gt;0&lt;/SpawnRating&gt;</span>
  14. <span><strong> <span>       &lt;UpgradesToGoodieHut&gt;Lair_TrollShaman_Final&lt;/UpgradesToGoodieHut&gt;</span></strong></span>
  15. <span><strong>        &lt;UpgradesToGoodieHutInTurns&gt;360&lt;/UpgradesToGoodieHutInTurns&gt;</strong></span>
  16. <span>        &lt;TileDesign&gt;L_Troll_Shaman_01&lt;/TileDesign&gt;</span>
  17. <span>        &lt;TileDesignForTerrain&gt;SwampTerrain:L_Troll_Shaman_Asag_01&lt;/TileDesignForTerrain&gt;</span>
  18. <span>        &lt;DrawnIcon&gt;Lair_Troll.png&lt;/DrawnIcon&gt;</span>
  19. <span>        &lt;IconSize&gt;50&lt;/IconSize&gt;</span>
  20. <span>        &lt;OnSelectSFX&gt;Click_Troll_Camp&lt;/OnSelectSFX&gt;</span>
  21. <span>        &lt;Medallions InternalName=""&gt;</span>
  22. <span>            &lt;All&gt;L_Troll_Shaman_01.png&lt;/All&gt;</span>
  23. <span>        &lt;/Medallions&gt;</span>
  25.  

 

Notice:

  1. <UpgradesToGoodieHut>Lair_TrollShaman_Final</UpgradesToGoodieHut></span></strong></span>
  2. <span><strong>       <UpgradesToGoodieHutInTurns>360</UpgradesToGoodieHutInTurns></strong></span>
  3. <span>        <TileDesign>L_Troll_Shaman_01</TileDesign></span>

 

Most the relevant information is probably already there for the KOA. You create an upgraded lair (Copy, paste and change internal name), and a few versions of the KOA to use as a downgraded version and an upgraded version (If you like, just the original and a downgraded version meets your requirements). This can be as simple as adjusting the stats of the unit and using the same lair graphic for each site upgrade.

You save the file and dump it into the mod folder. Enable mods and the KOA site should act similar to the Troll Shaman Lair. 

 

In regards to the second part of your post...

 

No you would not have made 3 to 10 games by now. Because a simple tweak to existing content using a convenient scripting language made even more convenient by a spreadsheet is a lot different than writing a video game. If you are going to criticize me, at least have some knowledge of what you are talking about. Here, have a taco.

 

Edit: sorry for the weird CODE issues, forum doesn't like me today.

 

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Have you actually tested those tweaks? If you did, you might realize that the KoAs are unique units that are spawned on creation. Not only will you need to make the Lair, you also need to make the units. Then, of course, you would have to make some system to UPGRADE the knights when the Lair upgrades, because upgrading the lair without changing the units would do... well... nothing. Of course, since you are doing 10 minute fixes, I'm not too surprised. Enjoy your burger.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting MisterAedan, reply 31

Going a little off-topic, Poko8, how does the bandit starting ability work out for you? Do you generally manage to keep them alive for much of the game? The only time I used it they were killed off in my first serious battle, although by that point they had helped my sovereign & champion level a bit so it wasn't a total waste, but seemed less effective than Summoner, for example. When I played against the custom character I created the AI seemed to have the same problem.
 

I like it because I can send one with my sovereign and one with my champion.  I'll usually let them absorb one hit (or dodge it and stick around for another), then retreat and chuck a dagger until they can swoop in for the kill.  I find I can usually keep both alive without reloads until my heroes are level 4 or 5.  I'll never put them in a position to take hits from more than one enemy though, or else they're dead in a hurry.

Does the summoner trait require mana for the summon?  I usually use all of my early mana on Enchanted Hammers and Inspiration for the early production and tech boost, so might not have much left for the summon.  I'll give it a try though, I haven't yet.

Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting jshores, reply 27



Quoting Kalin,
reply 25

Quoting jshores, reply 21
Kalin,

We are only talking a little bit of map scripting to save the players time restarting. Yes, the burden is on the developer. I've seen your past posting history and I expect 0 rational discussion from you when you feel the developers are being criticized, so let's agree to disagree. I think the burden of building the map should fall on the developers, and you think it should fall to the players via ctrl-n. I like burgers, you like tacos, have a nice day.


Okay wait, what the hell is that suppose to mean? If you have REALLY seen my posts, then you would know that I have always acknowledged that map generation still needs work. That doesn't mean I'm not realistic about where monsters can be placed. A little bit of map scripting? Have you seriously looked at the map lately? Due to memory limitations, the map size isn't super large... and there are many people who thinks that players are being placed too close to one another as it is. There's very little room where you can put "strong" monsters that would not be near somebody, unless if by little, you mean, don't put any strong monsters at all? Then sure, I'll agree to disagree with you. I like having some challenging monsters around. Good day to you.


 

I really like famous Dave's pulled pork burgers. And yes, I absolutely think it is a small amount of map scripting work. If you use bellacks idea, 10 minutes of xml work. Actually, 5 minutes of excel work since they use a spreadsheet to generate the xml.

And besides even if it is more work than that why not ask the DEVs to do this. This is the best time for a request last this since the game is still in beta. Hell even if it is a lot more work I and I suspect Jshore and others would like the DEVs to do this. 

Better to ask now than to wait until after the game is released.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top


OK, i just want to say again, if you don't mind,

A monster like the knights, or shrill lord, or umberdrake( big stonelike wolf thing - whatever its called), or demon assassin, should not be within 10 tiles of the square any sovereign starts on. In fact, no monster should be within immediate striking distance. Something week like mites or bandits is ok. You want the player and the ai to have a chance to look around a turn or two to pick the right spot.

 

You should as a player, have some sort of idea what the attack range of a monster lair is so that you know approximately when your zone of control will set it off.

This is not an issue of what setting of density the monsters are on. This is a gamekilling issue that needs to be addressed. Receiving the message on the first turn that an ai has been killed should never ever happen. ever.

 

 

EVER.

 

 

 Also, since the dev's discovered the monsters were not using the ai's vision to see where anything was, that  explains the behaviour of the monsters charging halfway around the world to kill your sovereign and cities, so expect some major changes here - the game is about to change big time and we need to see how the ai will deal with this new reality.

 

 

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

(I decided to cut the flame part... because it's childish. Long story short, can't assume much about me from one post.)

If you saw my less impassioned posts, you'd see that I clarified my issue: I don't know what monsters will attack and what will not and that is a problem because it robs me of the ability to plan ahead. The AI knows this information inherently and can expand much faster. I on the other hand, am left having to assume slow and steady is the way to go or roll the dice on the knights or some elemental attacking my towns.

I'll search around for these "awakening triggers" that Deggial_68 mentioned. Maybe that will help. Thanks Deggial!

I think I'll try silver tongue.That was a good idea. Thanks to the one who suggested that and all other strategies.

 

By the way, how the heck does Bellack know how old I am anyway? Anybody else see the insanity in that assumption?

 

 

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting wthoma2, reply 38
By the way, how the heck does Bellack know how old I am anyway? Anybody else see the insanity in that assumption?  

 

It actually tells your age if you click here

 

Or maybe it tells my age, I'm not sure...

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Ha, I started a new game last night. Founded the capital, several turns later a 3 stack of trolls exited the fog of war, primary being a troll warrior, made a beeline for my capital. On turn 19 they attacked the capital, my one militia, sovereign, and recruited hero didn't stand a chance.

I lol'd.

Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting wthoma2, reply 38

 

By the way, how the heck does Bellack know how old I am anyway? Anybody else see the insanity in that assumption?

 

 

 

Was I close   :)

 

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

They were annoying me in a test game this morning too (though im happy to report I beat them with a low level Ceresa, Nochd Nightbringer and a Burning Wraith).  I was kind of proud of that battle and only won due to good luck, a territory bonus and laying on the spells before they got to me (specifically Blindness to buy my some time and Curse to knock out their really tough to deal with Defense).

Regardless I moved them back slightly from starting locations and made them a little more rare (I want them to be somethign special, as is i feel like im bumping up against them every other game).

I like the idea to make a low level version of them and have it level up over time, I'll will probably switch to something like that but I was getting the patch ready and didn't have tome to add it this morning.

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

Awesome. Thanks for the notice Derek, I'll be less snarky in future posts. Keep up fighting the good fight!

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 34
Have you actually tested those tweaks? If you did, you might realize that the KoAs are unique units that are spawned on creation. Not only will you need to make the Lair, you also need to make the units. Then, of course, you would have to make some system to UPGRADE the knights when the Lair upgrades, because upgrading the lair without changing the units would do... well... nothing. Of course, since you are doing 10 minute fixes, I'm not too surprised. Enjoy your burger.

 

Challenge Accepted.

 

I started on the mod at 5:33pm and completed it at 5:42pm. That included one interruption from my daughter, and me taking a minute to read Derek's post. 

 

I went and ate dinner, came back and tested the mod.

 

It took me two maps to spawn the new KOA lair.  I set it to turn into a normal KOA lair after five turns. Here is the results:

 

Turn 1 through 4:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3878578/FallenEnchantress_1337903241.jpg

Turn 5+

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3878578/FallenEnchantress_1337903281.jpg

 

Something I noticed: Monsters spawned from the original lair die when the lair upgrades, and the new improved unit is spawned on top of the lair.

 

Kalin,

One last thing:

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1035077.1331171786!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg

 

Additional notes:

 

Basically everything you said I would have to do was totally incorrect, including creating the new unit, but I did it anyway because I didn't realize I wouldn't need to until after I completed the mod.

I had 4-5 hours of work left when I read your post, so I had plenty of time to be pissed off and come up with a plan to make the mod, so add 5 hours of planning to 9 minutes of copy/paste and fiddling with literally less than a half dozen values.

 

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Um... all I see from your post is your lair, and an upgraded version. That doesn't show me anything of value, we all know that can be done. The problem is what to do with the units. So when the lair upgrades, the unit is respawned at the original location... what if I had lured that monster away in the early game, now that the lair upgrades, the monster (the strong version) pops out and smoke the nearby city? Isn't that what everyone is crying about in this topic??? Or am I missing something here. Heck, let's say you manage to kill the early knights, then the lair upgrades, and pop out more knights... didn't you just make the whole thing worse? Let's say I go on the forum and throw a tantrum about it, like you are doing now... perfectly modded right?

10 minute fix indeed... 5 hour of planning didn't seem to help either.

 

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top


I think the Knights of Asok are perfect the way they are except for a major bug with their lair.

 

They are the only lair that I have seen that if you move onto it without owning it, it pops up a dialogue where the knights promise not to raze your property and reign in their wandering knights.

Problem is they LIE!

They smoked my town about 3 turns later.

 

If they actually do what the dialogue says, then it wouldn't be an issue at all!

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 45
Um... all I see from your post is your lair, and an upgraded version. That doesn't show me anything of value, we all know that can be done. The problem is what to do with the units. So when the lair upgrades, the unit is respawned at the original location... what if I had lured that monster away in the early game, now that the lair upgrades, the monster (the strong version) pops out and smoke the nearby city? Isn't that what everyone is crying about in this topic??? Or am I missing something here. Heck, let's say you manage to kill the early knights, then the lair upgrades, and pop out more knights... didn't you just make the whole thing worse? Let's say I go on the forum and throw a tantrum about it, like you are doing now... perfectly modded right?

10 minute fix indeed... 5 hour of planning didn't seem to help either.

 

How petty.

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Petty? You consider putting the lair in the game and taking 2 screenshot as "testing" and you call ME petty? Seriously... did you actually PLAY a game with your mod? Of course you didn't because there's no way you could in 10 minutes.

Edit: Let me reverse the situation for you since you just don't seem to understand, would YOU be happy, if Stardock tested all their changes doing what you just did? Forget playing the game and seeing how your changes affects it, as long as you can get it in game, and it doesn't crash... everything must be fine, right? Do you HONESTLY not see what's wrong with this?

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kalin, reply 48
Petty? You consider putting the lair in the game and taking 2 screenshot as "testing" and you call ME petty? Seriously... did you actually PLAY a game with your mod? Of course you didn't because there's no way you could in 10 minutes.

Edit: Let me reverse the situation for you since you just don't seem to understand, would YOU be happy, if Stardock tested all their changes doing what you just did? Forget playing the game and seeing how your changes affects it, as long as you can get it in game, and it doesn't crash... everything must be fine, right? Do you HONESTLY not see what's wrong with this?

Settle down guy.