Playing versus AI, is Vasari just inferior to TEC?

from Sins Forums

Here are some major advantages I've discovered playing against the Cruel AI as TEC.

1. Early game Hoshikos and Repair Platforms.  Due to the low damage output of smaller fleets early game, very few casualties are suffered with these around.  They can stack their HOT with each other, and later on, with starbases as well.  And they can do this all while attacking, unlike overseers.

2. Early game Trade Facilities and Refineries.  Having access to these as early as possible seems essential for me to reduce the difference in the huge economic edge the Cruel AI gets.  Vasari just takes too long to get theirs up, especially the Refineries, where its required you research their crystal/metal extraction first, which not only takes a long time but many precious resources as well.

3. Star Bases self-destruct.  They're like roach hotels for the AI.  They just love to suicide their fleets on them.  Vasari's SB takes far too many resources to be able to defend itself and its gravity well.  In contrast, a TEC SB just needs to have Last Resort, which is adequate enough to wipe out an entire fleet for a very low cost.

 

In general though, I find it very difficult to play as the Vasari against the Cruel AI because of how much difference there is in our economies.  The TEC civic techs just seem necessary to me in order to closer match the enemies economy.  Anyone agree/disagree?  If so, why, and what advantages should I be using when playing as the Vasari versus the cruel AI?

strategy
27,467 views 19 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Sounds pretty accurate to me.  I've always found TEC and Advent much easier to turtle with.  About the only thing the Vasari have that really does a number on the AI is their repair cruiser.  Instant repair makes for a hellishly hard to kill starbase.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

In general though, I find it very difficult to play as the Vasari against the Cruel AI because of how much difference there is in our economies.  The TEC civic techs just seem necessary to me in order to closer match the enemies economy.  Anyone agree/disagree?  If so, why, and what advantages should I be using when playing as the Vasari versus the cruel AI?

Vasari has a really nice ace in the hole: phase stabilizers...these allow you to rely heavily on defenses and less on fleet (since your fleet can get anywhere in one jump)...the economic advantage of this is that you don't have to maintain as large of a fleet to defend multiple fronts...less fleet means less maintenance, which means a stronger economy...

Economic advantages only mean so much...you are never going to outdo the AI economically when you go against cruel and vicious unless you are so powerful the game is already decided...

Personally, I think that Advent are the best for turtling...their SBs are the best against fleets (always get meteor storm), and prog/halcyon/iconus guardian combos can usually keep you at zero losses against the AI...furthermore, they have more tactical slots and are the only faction to have a superweapon that can wipe out planets  guaranteed...

Your success on cruel/vicious generally is how good you are at expanding...if you don't expand very fast and are forced to work with a small empire, I can see why TEC may be preferable...however, I personally would rather turtle with Advent or Vasari if I'm going against the AI...the biggest downside in my mind for Vasari is not their ability to defend, but their ability to expand as fast as Advent or TEC...

 

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 2
superweapon that can wipe out planets guaranteed...

Did the diliverence engine get a buff somewhere that I'm not aware of... I think I would remember if they weren't entirely useless. o_O

The Vasari are an aggressive and late game faction, its only natural they will be harder to beat very hard levels of AI, where you need to exploit the AI's weakness against fortified planets. Indeed before the carrier capital buff Vasari were the least use faction in multilayer precisely because their early game comparatively sucked. It was only once carrier caps and scramble bombers became competitive that good players could reliable get them to survive until midgame that they became widely used.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3
Did the diliverence engine get a buff somewhere that I'm not aware of... I think I would remember if they weren't entirely useless.

Sadly no...but if you are playing a turtling game against a cruel/vicious AI, presumably you have a lot of time to spare...and even SBs can't prevent the inevitable loss of a planet due to culture...it's slow and impractical, but it is guaranteed...

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 4
and even SBs can't prevent the inevitable loss of a planet due to culture...it's slow and impractical, but it is guaranteed...

Well considering I don't see the AI build auxillary government very often but I do see them build culture centers, I'd rather have some novaliths. Even if they do have axillary government the population and trade penalties are substantial and last quite a while.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 5
Even if they do have axillary government the population and trade penalties are substantial and last quite a while.

Against a cheating AI, would that even matter?  I feel like it's one of those "half of infinity is still infinity" things...

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 5
Well considering I don't see the AI build auxillary government

Well, they do build all of those "other" upgrades if you play without the 8 upgrade limit (damn AI just red-buttoned me last night  :annoyed: )...that being said though, I'd really have to think about that...I honestly am not sure if I've ever seen an AI build auxiliary gov. in vanilla... 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

No vasari is far superior against tec if you play against AI

 

Recepie to beat vicious AI as Vasari.

Start with 2 carrier cap/fighters and repair cloud build 2 military labs and star base choke points. Place 5-10 vasari turrets in cluster with 3 repairs on each one with carrier capital in defence. Upgrade SB to level that is needed for it to survive. When Ai attacks make your carrier cap move around your turrets sb and repair platforms. Stupid ai will follow and his ships will be destroyed by your turrets. Make sure you kill starfish or ogrows first. Have 5 -10- overseers heal your structures that might get scratched. 

Repeat for all choke points.

Build 3 civ labs and research capital resource collection.  

Now start spamming capitals possible trade if you have enough planets and level them to lvl 10 when you think you have enough of them build 30 carrier frigates some more overseers and whatever else you think you want to build.

Congratulations 

Game is over

B) You have won B)

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

The day the Ai is programmed to counter 50 lrf with 60 flak frigates and fighters from caps -and not suicide on starbases, switch to bombers and bomb turrets and star-bases from the edge of the gravity well while killing trade ports and culture temples first when invading is the day you can kiss your single player games goodbye. You will loose like chickens in a slaughter house and blame iron clad for releasing an unplayable game.

Lets not forget fleets programmed to micro flak fleets between enemy formations and repulsing or disabling unit and structure abilities on threat proximity and intelligent analysis of outcomes --e.g repulsing structure busters out of range and micro-ing there death with fighters. 

For those asking how will the ai know what to build? 1-scout you, 2- cheat

Nobody asked you to be pulling your hair out-but you will be with every failed attempt to win. 

So Iron/Stardock its time to use those Quad/Octa core CPU's and create hell for people who underestimate programmers. They don't understand your just making the game easy enough for them to enjoy and win with less cpu cycles for Ai workloads.

 

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 8
The day the Ai is programmed.....

You contradict yourself AI doesn't need to be programmed it just has to be.

As far as I know AI doesn't exist ... yet. What we have are scripted programs or if enemy does that you do this commands that define what will "AI" do. When Ai is able to plan learn from previous failures and adapt then yes It will be hell. But that is at least about 30 years down the road.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Greg30007, reply 9

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 8The day the Ai is programmed.....

You contradict yourself AI doesn't need to be programmed it just has to be.

As far as I know AI doesn't exist ... yet. What we have are scripted programs or if enemy does that you do this commands that define what will "AI" do. When Ai is able to plan learn from previous failures and adapt then yes It will be hell. But that is at least about 30 years down the road.

 

"Theres nothing wrong with having nothing to say-unless you insist on saying it."

 

http://www.aihorizon.com/intro.htm

 

http://www.aihorizon.com/essays/goai/intro.htm


http://www.aihorizon.com/essays/chessai/intro.htm


http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/comp.php


Never enter a battle of whits unarmed because clearly you forgot to pack your pea of brain and mis-took it for the fly buzzing in your head. At this point i wouldn't be surprised if your wearing a condom to avoid getting the flu virus, put one in your computer to avoid it getting a virus and upgraded to colored, flavored and studded condoms.  




 


 

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Brute force and ability to calculate every move that is possible and then walk the branch that gives you desired result as in when Kasparow was beaten by Beep blue hardly counts as intelligence in my mind. You could throw in Watson in here as well. His brain were world wide web and supercomputer that took whole room. 

Imagine computer power needed to brute force play sins and I don't think Wikipedia or any other pedia can help with that. 

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Greg30007, reply 11
Brute force and ability to calculate every move that is possible and then walk the branch that gives you desired result as in when Kasparow was beaten by Beep blue hardly counts as intelligence in my mind. You could throw in Watson in here as well. His brain were world wide web and supercomputer that took whole room. 

Imagine computer power needed to brute force play sins and I don't think Wikipedia or any other pedia can help with that. 

Jiba jabba--

 

i think we have now agreed that Ai's are programmed-to learn*. Thank you for that and

thank you for your insight into that other side of the story.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

No Ai is programmed to shift through massive amounts of data that already exists at very high speeds.

What I understand as intelligence is to be able to create something new. 

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Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Greg30007, reply 13
No Ai is programmed to shift through massive amounts of data that already exists at very high speeds.

What I understand as intelligence is to be able to create something new. 

I'll have to get back to on this obvious statement. I promise i won't be gone long.

Love you.

cheers.

 

P.S I have 9 lives and you ain't got 1.

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Ok, look... Greg30007 is right in the sense that AI doesn't actually exist. However, in video games, the common nomenclature for computer-controlled 'players' is 'AI'. So, let's not muddy the waters by nitpicking the use of the word(s) in this context. Everyone knew (well, mostly knew) what RiddleKing was talking about.

However, we could open up a post on the general forums if you want to discuss AI, because I do dispute the statement: "No AI is programmed to shift through massive amounts of data that already exists at very high speeds."

 

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

The answer to defeating AI in Unfair difficulty is the Vasari civilisation...having 5 of their Kortul level Devastator capital ships and some few support carriers will handle ANYTHING thrown at em...These capital ships are ridiculously strong...and oh,it seems their shields never down to zero!! ^^ and once you have 7 Kortul devastators,the game is yours...Hail the dreaded Vasari!!!! and their capital ships and oh!!!! the orkulus!!

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 5

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 4and even SBs can't prevent the inevitable loss of a planet due to culture...it's slow and impractical, but it is guaranteed...

Well considering I don't see the AI build auxillary government very often but I do see them build culture centers, I'd rather have some novaliths. Even if they do have axillary government the population and trade penalties are substantial and last quite a while.

They do build it, but really infrequently. Culture centers on the other hand they spam on these difficulties, and those negate the DE entirely.

So yeah, I'd rather have the Novalith in this situation. The DE *should* be useful too, but the devs have totally ignored its suckitude the entire beta so at this point I don't expect them to ever fix it.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Vasari don't NEED to turtle vs. the AI. Rock your Kanraks early and make yourself the landlord of the galaxy.