[Balance] Gameplay Feedback - Suggestions for change

I've played several games to completion now, on Normal/Challenging/Hard, Small/Medium/Large, some feedback for the team:

I realize it's early yet to be pushing hard against the AI with all the balance issues, but the victory I scored in the title pretty extreme - the only place I can go from there is Ridiculous AI, and I'm not sure it would matter. Finished this game with the Epic Quest victory.

Oh, and I was playing Lord Relias with some vague idea that his bonuses would help with a hero-centric attempt, but they turned out to be fairly irrelevant, as I didn't really do much questing past the very early game. Speaking of, his Heroic trait gives +100% Prestige from Trophies - I don't even know what a Trophy is :P

Anyway, most of the major reasons this can be done are already being hashed over on the forums - Heroes in particular need some serious balance work, but the AI needs some tinkering as well.

I had three, and only three cities for the whole game, lost one of them several times (delaying its ascent to level 5 by hundreds of turns due to the current pop-wipe bug when capping a city)

Here's the primary gameplay mechanics/issues that allow this:

Heroes:

Heroes are far, far too powerful. Many discussions on the forums about this, I'm sure you are aware of this internally as well. They need to be tinkered with.

Biggest offenders:

  • Fully shared XP
  • Fallen heroes in winning fights take no wounds
  • Insane Initiative
  • No cap on mana spent per battle (AoW and MoM both have this, no idea why you don't copy this mechanic),
  • No practical limit on accessory equipment (this was brought up as a major balance issue in WoM, why is it still present here?)
  • A handful of vastly too-powerful traits (+stat per level being the biggest offender)
  • Maul is too powerful (though I did not use/abuse it this game)
  • You can carry, afaict, unlimited potions.

They're far from unsalvageable, they just need some adjustment.

Razing:

See this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/415762

One turn razing is flat out broken. I rampaged across the landscape sacking AI cities constantly. Only AIs on the opposite side of the map could build up with any meaningful progress, because by razing cities in one turn, I was destroying dozens or hundreds of turns of work instantly.

Another major issue with this playstyle - I could hole up in a city for a turn or two after I conquered it to heal to full, then raze it and move on. Thanks for the hospital AI!

Cloud Walk:

See this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/415764

Teleportation is broken. This was raised in WoM, but it's still here, and still broken.

As an additional suggestion to the City Gates in that post, I would consider adding Portals as wilderness objects - none in Tiny maps, maybe none in Small maps, but a few in Medium maps, and a couple in Large maps. These would be portal gates that would allow you to teleport across the map - probably heavily defended initially, perhaps paying a fee per use, perhaps having to fight magical creatures while in transit each trip, perhaps taking damage in transit. They would create interesting 'chokepoints', and allow traversal across the otherwise ridiculous spans of terrain on Large maps, without allowing instant player controlled teleportation.

Cloud Walk though... ignoring its raw power just with your cities, with allies, you can even drop outposts safely far away on the map as cloud walk targets, giving you a personal teleport network that's totally cheesy. It needs to go :P

AI:

The AI is actually in much, much better shape here than it was in WoM, but a few points -

All of the AI in every game I've played has been deficit spending. They seem to build up every structure in every city with no regard for their use.

They don't level their heroes efficiently. While my heroes were ~15, the highest enemy hero I encountered was maybe 7 or 8, not well outfitted, and with several companion heroes sporting battle wounds.

They didn't respect me as a threat - because I was sticking to three cities and not expanding, I was at the bottom of the leaderboard or at best in the middle (once I started mass-razing nearby opponents), so the 'winning' AI of my faction were content to ally with me and let me stomp everyone else. The highest enemy faction AI did go to war with me, but given the distances involved (no city gates, no map portals), they couldn't get an army across all the OTHER AI territory to reach me and counter-attack, while my guerilla army of heroes thrashed their cities to the ground with one turn razing.

Spells:

Spells are actually pretty well done, but I need to do a full separate post about magic in the game in general. In brief - the current spells are solid, but there are some mechanical/balance issues that cause problems.

  • Mana usage in battle per hero is not constrained. AoM, MoM, and other games have done this - simply give heroes a cap on tactical mana that can be spent, adjust spell costs to compensate, and you prevent endless spellcasting of hyper-powered spells from the mid all the way to the end game (I actually really dislike mana as a mechanic, its too binary - its either infinite or not present, I'd rather see a cooldown system, but that's another post).
  • Because Initiative is too powerful, Haste is far too powerful for its cost
  • Multi-turn cast spells lose their speed disadvantage with high Init, allowing for turn-1 knockouts of entire enemy armies - only strong single figures or heroes survived this.
  • AoE spells should probably not do figure-multiplied damage. I'd suggest giving some schools SINGLE target spells that do multi-figure damage, forcing you to make choices depending on the situation.
  • Buff spells are generally good
  • Debuff spells are generally not worth the time, largely because damage or buff spells are so much better. With rare exception, it makes more sense to power up your units than it does to debuff enemy units slightly. Gravemark is a good example of a strong curse. Mass Curse/Wither type spells would be good, but they need to scale with attributes/shards better, or buffs/damage spells need to be toned down. Chaos/Pandemonium are just stupid - I'm never going to use spells that can mass backfire on me. In general, debuffing enemy units instead of just killing them isn't worthwhile, so I'd vote for nastier debuffs. To compensate, give some curative spells instead of the near-useless counterspell line of spells.
  • I definitely like the full-combat duration of buffs and debuffs. That alone makes them actually worth considering over damage spells. Gives buffs power and debuffs some bite.
  • I really dislike binary resists. Some spells do have partial resist ability, I'd recommend doing something similar for binary debuff spells, where a successful resist leaves a weaker effect, but still does _something_. Otherwise I'm always going to use guaranteed damage or self-buffs over debuffs that potentially fail.
  • I don't think debuffs show the % of success/failure? Should be shown, I appreciate the % chance to hit/avg damage display for melee/ranged.
  • Shards are a poor method of powering up spells, and the Evoker line is too much of a crapshoot for powering up your caster heroes (great if you get it early, always have it later, but might be missing it in the early development of a caster hero, rendering their damage spells extremely weak). I'd recommend giving some thought to smoothing out the ramping of damage spells to keep them useful throughout the life of a hero and the duration of a game, but without such tremendous spikes in power.
  • Overland 'strategic' level buff spells are a terrible, terrible investment of mana. Again, the whole mana system... well, that's another post.

Last thoughts:

Interestingly, I did _not_ abuse reloading, nor did I even lose my heroes past the very early game. I saved regularly to avoid crashes (which happened quite a bit), but once I got rolling, I never stopped, and I was rarely threatened. Even when I was, my full garrisons were enough to hold, and if they weren't, Cloud Walk would allow me to instantly respond to any serious threat.

My heroes were defeated *once* the entire game - the very last fight for the epic quest, largely because I didn't know what to expect and underestimated the pile of enemies (which reminds me, that quest needs to reset to full strength if you fail, otherwise you can just recover and go finish up the remnants - I'd also recommend having multiple epic quest finishes instead of the same one each game).

The AI had to deal with a rapidly moving pile of doom that could teleport away instantly and razed cities to the ground immediately, but I only had to protect one tiny corner of the map with three cities.

I didn't bother conquering either of the wildlands that I located, and my heroes were still wearing some _leather armor_ when I finished the game. I never researched metal armor for my troops either.

I largely rampaged on the strength of hero talents and a few key spells (Haste/Slow early, then nukes and some buffs later).

None of my heroes were super-powerful in melee until much later in the game, but they were resilient due to high dodge and hp, and later defense (my defense was actually pretty crap for the first third of the game, I didn't even have full sets of leather armor until probably half way through the game!).

More later.

 

20,759 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think tactical mana limits, perhaps linked to intelligence togive that trait more use, would be a pretty solid addition. This would also allow you to ramp up mana earned to allow more free use of magical hijinks like buffs/summons without wildly unbalancing tactical combat.

 

The sovereign should have a ludicrous tac mana limit, especially in his/her own territory. If only because I am a sucker for theme.

 

Mana cost for sovereign to escape should be upped, and if the mana isn't there maybe give the sovereign a wound.

Reply #2 Top

I remember making several of these suggestions for WoM.  I sure hope if they do anything at all, at least they limit the number of magic items units can soldiers can equip.  Portals was another thing that came up before, and I loved the idea then and I love it now.  No boats, teleport too OP?  Then portals would be a very strategic thing to add. 

Reply #3 Top

@Mtrixis, this is a great post, everything you say I agree with (what I'm saying is I feel the same way when I play). Except the part about shared xp because I didn't understand what you mean.

Reply #4 Top

Ah, just meant XP seems to be distributed equally to all heroes in a battle, I don't think it's split up in any way, and it needs to be (4 heroes should level 4x as slowly as 1 hero in a stack of doom, natch)

There's a lot of ways they could go with the heroes, the systems they have in place are being warped by a handful of balance issues, the core mechanics are sound (I've experimented with not abusing any of the problems to see how they handle, and they're not grossly overpowered without key traits/gear/etc).

I'd like to see them develop multiple viable paths for the heroes, right now, assassin is lackluster, warrior and defender are a bit too close to each other (though otherwise effective), mage is strong, governor is near useless.

Purely philosophically, I'd like to see battle heroes, mage heroes, city heroes, and army leader heroes, and I *think* that's what they're trying to do - it's just not fleshed out like that right now.

Basically you'd have combat heroes (fighter/mage), leader heroes (boost units in the army while hanging back casting spells/using leadership abilities), and admin heroes (move between cities using special city-affecting abilities, maybe even 'debuffing' enemy cities, rather than simply sitting in a city providing passive bonuses).

Reply #5 Top

I'm one of those guys that can imagine a hundred different hero paths, but I'll be adding those in mods :D

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 3
@Mtrixis, this is a great post, everything you say I agree with (what I'm saying is I feel the same way when I play). Except the part about shared xp because I didn't understand what you mean.

To further describe his point (abstractly):

Right now if you have one hero that defeats one enemy in battle he gains X xp.  If you bring two heroes, they each gain X xp. Same for three, four, or ten.  Basically an infinite gain of xp (I know there's a party member cap.)

What it ought to be is there is X xp available when you defeat an enemy, distributed equally among the entire winning party.

Reply #7 Top

Now that I actually read the entire post, great ideas, and thank you for clearly outlining some of the glaring issues in the game so far.  I'd like to comment specifically on some points in the magic section.

Mana usage in battle per hero is not constrained. AoM, MoM, and other games have done this - simply give heroes a cap on tactical mana that can be spent, adjust spell costs to compensate, and you prevent endless spellcasting of hyper-powered spells from the mid all the way to the end game (I actually really dislike mana as a mechanic, its too binary - its either infinite or not present, I'd rather see a cooldown system, but that's another post).

I do think mana is somewhat necessary in a game like this, because in effect you have two completely separate spell systems, Strategic and Tactical, and since they both work on slightly different 'time scales', some sort of control ought to be in place to regulate the casting of magic.  a currency of magic (mana) in this case shouldn't be completely disregarded.  I do like your idea of cooldown for tactical spells however (this was in WoM...did they completely remove it for FE?) and really the way to do it is to negatively modify the initiative for the next action in combat.

Because Initiative is too powerful, Haste is far too powerful for its cost
Multi-turn cast spells lose their speed disadvantage with high Init, allowing for turn-1 knockouts of entire enemy armies - only strong single figures or heroes survived this.

Sound like initiative modifiers need balancing.

AoE spells should probably not do figure-multiplied damage. I'd suggest giving some schools SINGLE target spells that do multi-figure damage, forcing you to make choices depending on the situation.

I never really understood this mechanic.  I build a larger troop for the sole purpose of survivability.  However my opponent's mage automatically does more damage vs these units with his fireball.  Why would I produce larger squads? Broken.

Debuff spells are generally not worth the time, largely because damage or buff spells are so much better. With rare exception, it makes more sense to power up your units than it does to debuff enemy units slightly. Gravemark is a good example of a strong curse. Mass Curse/Wither type spells would be good, but they need to scale with attributes/shards better, or buffs/damage spells need to be toned down. Chaos/Pandemonium are just stupid - I'm never going to use spells that can mass backfire on me. In general, debuffing enemy units instead of just killing them isn't worthwhile, so I'd vote for nastier debuffs. To compensate, give some curative spells instead of the near-useless counterspell line of spells.

Debuffs definitely ought to be a viable path for a mage.  Whereas direct damage is powerful, it should be mana intensive and require a high cooldown.  Debuffs should be useful but annoying to your opponent, and not quite so draining on your own resources.  In general, debuffs should have a lower mana cost increase and cooldown increase when cast AoE or affect all enemy type spells versus direct damage. 

I really dislike binary resists. Some spells do have partial resist ability, I'd recommend doing something similar for binary debuff spells, where a successful resist leaves a weaker effect, but still does _something_. Otherwise I'm always going to use guaranteed damage or self-buffs over debuffs that potentially fail.

Agree completely.  Resists should be a [My Spell Power / Their Spell Power]% sort of thing.

Shards are a poor method of powering up spells, and the Evoker line is too much of a crapshoot for powering up your caster heroes (great if you get it early, always have it later, but might be missing it in the early development of a caster hero, rendering their damage spells extremely weak). I'd recommend giving some thought to smoothing out the ramping of damage spells to keep them useful throughout the life of a hero and the duration of a game, but without such tremendous spikes in power.

Don't know what the Evoker line is all about, but shard definitely need work.  Touching on the "buildings need to upgrade" issue, higher level magic building ought to be able to amplify shard output in order to grow the power of you Magi.  I like the system.  It's different and potentially fun, and it can make the city building experience that much more enjoyable.  It just needs work.

 

Reply #8 Top

Forgot this one!!

Overland 'strategic' level buff spells are a terrible, terrible investment of mana. Again, the whole mana system... well, that's another post.

Agree.  Strategic spells should be city/empire/movement etc type spells.  BIG spells.  Those enchants on single units are worthless.

Reply #9 Top

While i love the idea of shared XP, the danger with splitting it perfectly evenly becomes this:

 

"Player A, through luck and skill, has managed to take 2 heroes and level them very high quite quickly.

 

Player B, being more cautious, and not being nearly as luck as player A (no fault of his own) has 4 heroes that have been traveling together, and that have gotten a few level ups.

 

Player A and player B have their heroes meet, and fight.  Player A splats player B, because his heroes are far more powerful and are wearing better gear."

 

With that said, I've always though that a reduction of XP gained is CRUCIAL to balancing heros, just not a completely even division.  If two heroes fight, they should both get 60 or 70 % of the normal XP.  If 5 heroes fight, maybe they all get 30 % of the normal XP.  This would encourage people to be a bit more daring with their main heroes to help them get the lions share of XP, instead of always keeping all their heroes together because their is no penalty to XP for having a stack of 6 heroes together.

 

<edit:  fixed a few typos I missed>

Reply #10 Top

A handful of vastly too-powerful traits (+stat per level being the biggest offender)

This is the one thing I don't agree with. The issue with heroes isn't stats, it's gear and rate of progression. +14 strength (for a level 14 hero) gives you +7 to +14 damage, which is far from being unbalanced. We're talking about a high level hero, he should be strong. No, the problem is things like "heart of the glacier", crushing blow, double strike, maul-powered weapons, etc. Things that allow you to deal way too much damage.

I actually think that stats improvement for heroes are too shy, and heroes are too gear-dependent. The strength of heroes shouldn't depend this much on sheer luck and finding big purple loot in a hut. I don't think of heroes as "peasants wielding a big artifact".

Reply #11 Top

Some very good ideas on how to tackle the issues that have come up with E:FE.

 

Fully shared XP is problematic and needs to be changed IMO.

Mana usage limits per battle sounds good.

I really like the idea of portals as well. It would allow a player to use an island map and not worry about boats. :P

Reply #12 Top

+1 for Mana Caps in tactical battles.  If you base it on Intelligence it makes that attribute more attractive and forces you to choose what spells would be most efficient for each battle rather than spamming.

 

I'd also like to point out that Pillar of Flame may be a bit on the strong side; I can cast it once per turn in my own territory and do significant damage to any hostile stack headed toward my cities or armies.  It's been quite easy to defend my early game by having one hero with basic fire magic and spamming PoF on any thing the comes in my borders.  It doesn't work as well against stronger monsters because they regen a lot per turn. 

Maybe it needs a couple of turns for cool down while slightly buffing the base damage?  I can cast it once to knock of a third of an armies' hit points but I have to wait four or five turns before using it again in which time they can heal back to full if I don't take the initiative.  At the very least they could make it to my city and attack.

Reply #13 Top


I had three, and only three cities for the whole game
 

 

uhm so?

 

we all  agreed ALWAYS that games like the old civ 4 were shit and needed to be changed

in the beta of wom brad told he was trying to force low cities number adding some malus to large empires...

 

3 cities is perfectly fine, for now i often play with 2 tbh unless i find another great spot very close mainly if it bring the shard i need the most otherwise i stay with 2 (probably not the best idea but i prefer easy managing and play more the combat/exploration etc)

Reply #14 Top

Yes except I was playing on a large map, and as a consequence of the size of the map, lack of transit means (no city gates, no map portals), and the number of hostile AI and terrain between me and the other AI, having a tiny number of cities tucked away in one corner of the map was a _huge_ defensive boon, beyond what seems an obvious benefit of running less cities in the first place.

I don't have any problems with a choice between few/many cities being an interesting strategic choice, but right now, it's good for all the wrong reasons.

I didn't even research military techs for quite awhile, as mentioned, I didn't even bother reaching up to/past the metal armor/weapons line, the AI barely managed to get any troops across the map to attack me, despite being at war with all but two of the AI for the entire game.

Consider: Had I bothered to hold onto the cities I captured, it would have made it _more_ difficult to destroy AI civs, not less - how much sense does that make?

Because they could recapture the cities behind my back. With me having no need for 'supply lines' or to spend time or money on building defensive troops or waiting for them to be built, I could continue my lightning blitz in enemy territory with impunity.

This isn't a condemnation of small numbers of cities, its a condemnation of mechanics that make it disproportionately powerful for all the wrong reasons (most of which I touched on in the first post, one turn razing, transit, etc)

Reply #15 Top

An addendum after playing a bit on Ridiculous difficulty, I'm done with trying to 'break' the game for the moment, I'll wait for a patch or two to iron out the most egregious balance issues before tackling it again.

I did run into another major issue though, and that is the method of hero acquisition - having the heroes randomly placed around the map and able to be killed by the opposing faction is a _bad_ idea.

Even if heroes are tuned so that they're not the unstoppable demigods of destruction they are now, it'd still be pretty crappy to find one or two heroes while another player gets four, and you kill off all of the opposing faction heroes in your vicinity, denying the AI the chance to pick them up.

There needs to be some way to 'generate' heroes, either via research, city structures, purchase, or whatever.

Heroes are far too important to be completely randomly acquired, and they 'run out' part way through the game (something I don't think people asking for perma-death are aware of :rofl: )

Reply #16 Top

Imho champions on the world map should be immune to attack from monsters and other faction. Particularly the high level champions have no way to survive until a time where you can do the research to acquire them.

Another option would be to provide those high-level heroes with a group of troops following him, and increase the cost of recruitment. This should give him better endurance in the game.

Reply #17 Top

Making heroes unattackable feels really gamey, but beyond that, it doesn't solve the problem of the random distribution and inability to create more heroes once the ones on the map are recruited or killed.

Given that heroes are likely to remain a significant part of the game, being limited to a handful of heroes due to luck of the draw would be pretty crappy, which is why I think they need to add some method of recruiting heroes.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Markon, reply 9
While i love the idea of shared XP, the danger with splitting it perfectly evenly becomes this:

 

"Player A, through luck and skill, has managed to take 2 heroes and level them very high quite quickly.

 

Player B, being more cautious, and not being nearly as luck as player A (no fault of his own) has 4 heroes that have been traveling together, and that have gotten a few level ups.

 

Player A and player B have their heroes meet, and fight.  Player A splats player B, because his heroes are far more powerful and are wearing better gear."

 

With that said, I've always though that a reduction of XP gained is CRUCIAL to balancing heros, just not a completely even division.  If two heroes fight, they should both get 60 or 70 % of the normal XP.  If 5 heroes fight, maybe they all get 30 % of the normal XP.  This would encourage people to be a bit more daring with their main heroes to help them get the lions share of XP, instead of always keeping all their heroes together because their is no penalty to XP for having a stack of 6 heroes together.

 

<edit:  fixed a few typos I missed>

The issue of logic I have with this post is that luck overrides everything, regardless of the system employed.  If the dice roll against you, nothing can overcome that.

The problem I have with the highlighted section is you're still giving more xp to a larger party, thus making it more attractive to have larger groups instead of creating a true strategic choice.  I personally don't like it, and I don't think it's very good game design.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Mtrixis, reply 17
Making heroes unattackable feels really gamey, but beyond that, it doesn't solve the problem of the random distribution and inability to create more heroes once the ones on the map are recruited or killed.

Given that heroes are likely to remain a significant part of the game, being limited to a handful of heroes due to luck of the draw would be pretty crappy, which is why I think they need to add some method of recruiting heroes.

What about Age of Wonders system? There heroes show up at one of your cities every once in a while. They can also be hired in special buildings, or on the map even (as in elemental). Giving them a small army might also work, gives them some survivability in the early game.

Reply #20 Top

I agree, there should be multiple inlets for acquiring heroes, including:

  • map locations
  • quests
  • unique combinations of buildings or empire choices (ie diplomacy with other factions) attract a hero
  • occasional member of your populace becomes a hero
  • great spells summon a hero

 

Reply #21 Top

Any of those would be fine really, it doesn't matter what system they use, just that there is one in place to acquire new heroes.

Random maps are cool, but heroes are too integral to the gameplay to be randomly distributed around the map as a finite resource.

They can still be limited to a capped number per empire (perhaps dependant on map size?), or tied to research unlocks, or any number of other limitations, but I firmly believe that all players need access to a hero pool throughout the game.

Because heroes are 'indestructible', I can understand their hesitation of allowing the player to freely recruit new heroes, but there's no need to allow that, they can put in limitations on how many you can recruit, how often you can recruit them, how expensive or time consuming they are to acquire, etcetc.

 

Reply #22 Top

Honestly, I still disagree with a perfectly even distribution of XP, for 2 reasons.  The first is for game balance, as I mentioned a few days ago a few posts up.

 

The second is a bit weirder, but it basically comes down to this;  People learn best from their own experiences, but they also from watching and observing.  Being present at a fight with a few of your buddies, you can pick up and improve from what you see them doing, as well as from what happens in your own little portion of the fight.  Hence, a little more than a perfectly even division makes sense.

I realize most people won't agree with my second reason, even if it makes sense to me with all my memories of sparring matches, and learning new tricks by watching my fellow students and instructors use them.

 

Another thing that could help with XP, is having high level heroes get less XP from weaker monsters, instead of a flat value for all monsters.