Suggestion for Current Graphical Overhaul (Unique Looking Planets, Structures, and Ships)

Using permutations, a wide variety of unique visuals can be created with minimal effort.

This technology is already being used by modders developing the "Black Mesa" re-imagining of Half Life 1.

Using only 3 base heads and multiple different facial features, hairstyles, and facial accessories (glasses, pencil behind ear, scars, hats, etc); an exhaustively wide range of different characters can be created in real time with minimal skinning required. The developer just makes a handful of different skins to be used as variables and permutations does the rest of the work.

While Sins of a Solar Empire is already a visual treat, a handful of repetitive visuals prevent the game from becoming a fully immersive sci-fi experience.

Most notably, the planet skins. Two kinds of Desert, about three kinds of Terran, two for Volcanic and Ice, and I think about three for asteroid. Seen em all and am no longer amazed by any of them.

Now, there was never anything wrong with the planet skins themselves, it was instead their static nature. They never change, even if they're in two separate star systems.

I know that there is only so much that a dev can do, so I'm not asking for 100% unique planet skins, all procedurally generated Minecraft-style.

Instead, I'm asking for little things that vary from planet to planet. Like brilliant auroras shimmering across the poles of a desert planet, the subtle glow of a thunderstorm underneath a Gas Giant's savage, small primitive satellites slowly making their way around a Terran planet, or the streaking of a metorite for the briefest of instances as it passes through an icy atmosphere.

I want to see this from time to time:

Not all at once, of course, but in small doses that make each planet feel alive in the same way that adding city lights or planetary rings do. I loved being mesmerized by what was going on at the planet's surface and wish to be mesmerized once again.

There is some possibility for these same permutations to be applied to ships and structures, although rather than adding aurora, you'd be adding radar dishes and the like. You know, something to make each one feel like it's own vessel. Having different serial numbers (from the variable pool that I'm talking about, of course) would be an example of this. It would also grants the oppertunity to visually distinguish the Loyalist and Rebel ships from each other (of course, this would only count for new ships, as the old ones would be pretty much legacy equipment). An example would be various warpaints or different symbols to taunt their enemy and embolden allies. Basically a visual representation of a "rebel yell" or "Dixie" song.

Even if this concept cannot be realized at the moment, I encourage for it to be considered in future additions to the Sins franchise.

I mean, it lets you get three different faces from one base.

 One hell of time saver, imho.

And just look at what Minecraft did with the same concept as their primary feature. Money, money galore.

Random permutations are the future, man. Gotta start thinking about how you'll take advantage of it soon.

50,834 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top

I like the idea, a lot, but I'm not sure if, or how, it can be implemented.

Reply #2 Top

In a sense, the same way planetary rings are implemented.

Some planets have them, some don't.

All I'm really talking about (for the planets, mind you) is an expansion of that idea.

As for ships, I myself am unsure of how to impliment them, whether or not they'd look any good, or even if it's a good idea at all. Really just brought it up as a suggestion for future Sins games.

I kinda assume you'd have to intend for this modeling system from the get go if you want to have it for complex stuff.

Planets should be fine, though. Probably just involves adding a visual layer over the base skin.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting SgtHydra, reply 2
Planets should be fine, though. Probably just involves adding a visual layer over the base skin.

Problem with planets is things like mountains and oceans. Different colored forests, deserts, or other things are probably fine if blended together, but if on planet texture A there is an ocean and on planet B there is a desert, even a little blending won't look good. Thus even if they did implement it the rough geography of the planet will be the same, only with some minor color variations.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3

Quoting SgtHydra, reply 2Planets should be fine, though. Probably just involves adding a visual layer over the base skin.

Problem with planets is things like mountains and oceans. Different colored forests, deserts, or other things are probably fine if blended together, but if on planet texture A there is an ocean and on planet B there is a desert, even a little blending won't look good. Thus even if they did implement it the rough geography of the planet will be the same, only with some minor color variations.

I did not suggest doing anything to the planet's surface.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting SgtHydra, reply 4
I did not suggest doing anything to the planet's surface.

Yes, I think I understand what you are saying now, and I think we are in agreement then. City lights and slightly different looking terrain textures could be done with just implementing permutations to the planet textures, I'm not sure how things like lightning would work. I assume it would be a bit like the clouds we have but I am unsure of how they work.

Reply #6 Top

I'd like both the planet and ship ideas implemented, myself. No two ships, or planets, look 100% alike. Not even two pieces of steel from the same machine. It would add more variety, in my opinion.

Reply #7 Top

Anything can be done given enough time and money.

It seems like they are very tight budget wise.

Imagine Sins with Skyrims budget.

Great idea though.

Reply #8 Top

It would be cool to have each frigate display a different number on it's side (in the case of TEC frigates at least) par example. It shouldnt be to hard to make a new variable that counts the numbers of frigates of the same type that are built. Then write some code that would have each frigate "paint" that variable on it's side as its very own number. Something as minor as that would already make each ship feel a lot more unique and shouldn't take too much time in my eyes.

I know it is possible to program something like this (I got quite a bit of programming experience).

Additional planet effects would also be really cool, I certainly like this idea.

Reply #9 Top

Rebellion will be using shader 3.0... who allow geometry instancing... vertex data is duplicated across all instanced meshes, each instance may have other differentiating parameters (such as color, light or skeletal animation pose ) changed in order to reduce the appearance of repetition.

Problem is the actual structure where the texture reference are included in the .mesh ... second problem, it the memory limit... it mean that each mesh will have plenty of texture set to choose from... will increase the size of the texture caching in memory and hit the windows 2gb limit...

Method is somehow already used in game like totalwar... the numerous archer from a unit use the same mesh, but texture and skeleton use instancing, so all soldier from the unit are somehow a little different...

Anyway, a lot of thing are possible with shader 3.0 but not all of them can be used without a full rework of the game engine... maybe for a sins 2, with multicore support, 64 bits and recent shader...

I'm not asking for 100% unique planet skins, all procedurally generated Minecraft-style.

Well, it will spare a lot of memory but increase the GPU use ( or CPU in case of low end graphic card, who can be a problem with sins )...

A few sample from "Art of illussion" ( a free 3d software ) :

A few of them look enough good to be a planet... below, a almost perfect moon...

Again, something to keep in mind for a new engine...

Well, maybe we need to use a old technology for resolve the 2gb ram problem... sins cache almost everything in memory because hard drive is too much slow for feed the texture in real time... will actual computer having plenty of ram, why not use a good old "ram disk" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_disk ) for cache the full game... will be fast and since the cache in memory is not linked to the application itself, we don't need the actual cache and it will spare plenty of room for the application ( solve the 2gb problem )... hell, one more idea who mean a new engine...

Point is that a lot of thing are possible but sins was made with technology from 2007 and before... there is some upper limit to tuning the actual engine... soon of later, the only solution will be a iron II engine and then it will be time to come with idea...

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Reply #10 Top

Wow, that Art of Illusion program is pretty cool and could be used to create dozens of totally different planets.

It is indeed too bad that the engine of Rebellion is the same engine that we already use for playing Sins, and that it is fairly limited in several ways.

Reply #11 Top

The only "cool" thing with Art of Illusion is that it is a free 3D software with professional features... i use Poser Pro for my render and it is able to make procedural texture too... in fact, i think that all professional 3D software can make it...

Before i begin model for sins, i was making model using million of poly and poly was "paint" with procedural textures... in game, model are low poly and somehow use real texture for add details... procedural is perfect for organic shape but not very good for low poly tech model...

Well, there is plenty of way to make something in the 3D world but game engine need to choose a single way... for example, i like soft vertex painting with falloff zone along with a displacement painting ( somehow similar to the sculpting from Zbrush )... don't need to segment the model, don't need to UV, don't need texture map and the render is great... the first pic below is a model using vertex/displacement painting... second pic is a opengl render...

perfect for organic shape, for the Vasari by example... bad for the TEC model... game engine designer need to make the hard choice... find a way who is good for almost everything... 3D software can allow themself to use multiple way, use various render engine, are not obligated to be real time, etc...

A other thing, pro 3D software cost at least 10-20 time more that a simple game... pretty sure that if they wish, Stardock/Ironclad can make a top render engine... but time and money used for create it will not be compensate by sale at 40$... more, it will need high end system, who mean that it will exclude a lot of customer...

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 10
It is indeed too bad that the engine of Rebellion is the same engine that we already use for playing Sins, and that it is fairly limited in several ways.

Well, believe me or not but it is less limited that some people think... in fact, on the personal level, i think that it is a pretty good engine... recently, i was able to render ingame 6.25 million poly on screen without slowdown... few games can make so much... and i was using my low end nv9600 gs 256mb in place of my nv 8800 ultra 768mb... i plan to show something not yet made with the actual iron engine in 2012... the old sins engine have not yet reveal all his potential...

By the way, the graphic engine have somehow change for rebellion... seem that they have a somehow real light system now... there is a topic where dev show two picture, one from trinity and one from rebellion... the quality improvement is really visible...

 

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Thoumsin, reply 11
By the way, the graphic engine have somehow change for rebellion... seem that they have a somehow real light system now... there is a topic where dev show two picture, one from trinity and one from rebellion... the quality improvement is really visible...

Yea I have seen the two pictures. It sure as hell looks a lot more real and the textures look a hell of a lot better. The shadowing is the coolest thing I believe. Now we can fight battles on the dark side of a planet or in the sun. Let's hope the particle effects will also look different depending on whether they appear shadowed or in direct sunlight. That would be sick.

Clearly there still is a lot possible with the old Iron engine. The only limits I referred to are it's hardcode and memory limits. Still, on my Macbook Pro (with 8 GB RAM) I noticed that it does matter how much RAM you have available for the number of particle effects that will be displayed on the screen at once (when I had 4 GB RAm it could handle less particles than it can handle right now).

Reply #13 Top

I am working on something similar...

I am adding particle effect flairs to planets to randomly generate weather and clouds and stuff.

 

It's going rather well!

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Reply #14 Top

Quoting KrdaxDrkrun, reply 13
I am working on something similar...

I am adding particle effect flairs to planets to randomly generate weather and clouds and stuff.
It's going rather well!

Sounds cool. Let me know when you got something to show us! :)

Reply #16 Top

Quoting KrdaxDrkrun, reply 13
I am working on something similar...


I am adding particle effect flairs to planets to randomly generate weather and clouds and stuff.

 

It's going rather well!

This post made my day.

Exactly what Sins needs. Bet aurora can be generated the same way.

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Edit: And I really hope Thoumsin saw the "not" in the section he quoted me on.

Kinda want to make it clear that 100% procedural generation is something you have to intend to have in the engine from the beginning. Otherwise... you get a silly looking mess...

I'd no doubt love it for Sins 2, but to be honest, I kinda like the stability of some of the pre-made maps.

Fans of single player will definitely want things to be pretty much new every time, but that's not always a good thing. It mustn't be forgotten that unchanging maps are what competitive multiplayer is pretty much built on. The ability for a player to know a map like the back of his hand is what allows the Starcraft 2 pros to focus on their mad skillz and make the game less about what exactly is on the map and more about how each player uses what's on the map. The ball is in their court, not in the hands of a mathematical program that cares little for the player. Randomness is all too often synonymous with unbalanced gameplay.

That said, sometimes you really want to be kept on your toes. In the end, a balance between familiarity and keeping the game fresh must be achieved and given clear boundaries.

But all that's assuming Sins 2 uses procedural generation at all.

Reply #17 Top

Particle effects can do a ton of different things, and planet flairs are probably one of the best possibilities.