Does culture need a buff?


Seleuceia's refinery thread got me thinking, does culture need a buff?  Would it help the Advent compete economically?  Will the more cooperative Advent Rebels have better culture techs to resist their more militant Loyalist brethren?

While a lot has been said about improving resource focus as a refinery tech, mining and trade aren't really Advent's "jam".  Sure, they need to do it and this tech should be improved, but culture is where it's at for them.  A refinery boost might end up helping the TEC and Vasari more than Advent, all things being equal.

I don't have specific numbers, but I'll throw out an idea. (Now, I've been talking about the Advent but these suggestions could apply to all races, since every race has culture, mining, and trade, they just get some techs earlier than others and have varying upgrades.)

Each culture center could raise the maximum allegiance for its host planet similar to Induced Reverence on the starbase, in addition to spreading culture like it does now.  It could be an automatic 5 percentage points, or it could be 1 percentage point per upgrade.  Something small so the starbase upgrade is still worth it.

It's worth keeping in mind a few things:

1.  Culture centers currently offer more flexibility in placement compared to trade ports and you don't need as many.  There are better places than others, but trade ports must have that line. (However, this is where the diminishing returns vs increasing returns comparison comes in).

2.  Culture affects all income rates, not just credits.

3.  Culture has "military" applications as well, such as the race-specific upgrade benefits, lowering enemy allegiance and preventing colonization of border worlds (often slowing an enemy's advance).

 

I'm not sure if I undermined my premise, but I'm sure others have thoughts on this. 

 

 

39,829 views 19 replies
Reply #1 Top

Yeah, there was a post a while back where we came up a lot of ideas of what could be done to help culture even within the current game engine (I.e. a mod), and I offered to make on to test it, but there wasn't a whole lot of interest.

Edit: This mod now exists, and is here.

Reply #2 Top

      Could pirates gain culture when strengthened? It would be called intimidation and your planets would lose allegiance due to this "threat".

Reply #3 Top

It is true that culture needs a bit of a buff.

One thing I would like to see improved myself, is the Deliverance Engine. Ironically, I just finished a game versus the AI in which I had build 16(!) Deliverance Engines to defeat the last enemy player with. Even with 16 of those weapons, it took me well over an hour to get the allegiance on all of his planets (which were about 12 in total) to zero. This should of course happen a lot faster if you own so many superweapons. They cost 8000 credits, 600 metal and 500 crystal each for Chrissake!

Increasing allegiance per built culture center doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. 5 percent extra allegiance per center would make the Advent have a more competitive economy compared with the rest of the races. In addition to this, the Advents Allure of the Unity tier 8 tech should be increased to 15% max increased allegiance instead of the present 10%.

I would like to see culture having more impact on the game in Rebellion. Let's hope the dev's will do something with it.

 

Reply #4 Top

Glad to see this topic brought up again....

Something small so the starbase upgrade is still worth it.

Keep in mind that +15% allegiance has the same economic benefit independent of the current allegiance because it is 15% of the base income...granted, a fixed "+15% bonus" would double the income of a planet at 30% allegiance, but really you want to analyze the absolute increase, not relative increase, since you are comparing this to trade ports (which have fixed income rates)...

Bonus allegiance per culture center ain't a bad idea...it could be made such that the base bonus is 0%, but each culture tech increased this bonus by 2.5%...that would put TEC/Vasari at +10% allegiance and Advent at +15% allegiance once all the culture techs are researched, giving the Advent some sort of advantage...

Of course, actually implementing that would be rather clumsy (if even possible), but on paper it seems like an okay idea...

I do agree that the DE needs some help....simply allowing culture to change faster would be the easiest change, and it would also help culture in general....

Reply #5 Top

Might be worth seeing what Rebellion brings to the table on this first.  I suspect putting the Induced Reverence ability on the culture centers might be doable but integrating it with the culture techs would be tricky.

 

wbino, since pirates do get new abilities as upgrades now,I suppose it would be theoretically possible for pirates ships to get the culture spreading ability as well.  I'm not sure if this would be mod-able though since they may not be considered an AI "player" and I don't know if culture would be dependent on that.  I'm not an expert in that area though.

However, I won't support new pirate abilities until pirates have settable difficulty levels like AI players that affect how strong they start and how fast they scale.  But that's a different matter :grin:

Reply #6 Top

Quoting stein220, reply 5
However, I won't support new pirate abilities until pirates have settable difficulty levels like AI players that affect how strong they start and how fast they scale.  But that's a different matter

Oh...if only that was implemented...it would be like the holy grail for pirate modding...

Reply #7 Top

Culture doesn't need a buff i think, i realise this only applies to advent, but i was playing against hard ai, me with one medium AI, vs other teams of 2 hard AI, and after taking over my home system, i just stacked up deliverance cannons and took over the other 3 smaller systems while my deliverance cannons bombarded the feck out of that one system, in about 2 hours, the AI were losing planets left right and centre, and there was nothing they could do to prevent it because my cluture would prevent them from colonizing their planets, as well as the fact that it gave me vision of all their planets because of advent research

 

Reply #8 Top

If you're playing the AI and have the freedom to build a ton of Deliverance Engines, you aren't playing in a setting worthy of making conclusions about balance changes. The AI is simply too dumb to even make a semblance of a decent strategic decision without a huge income advantage.

Among other weaknesses is the AI's inability to defend against culture if its logistics slots are already filled; the AI has no idea how to scuttle.

Consider coming to play online against humans, who are capable of strategizing!

Reply #9 Top

I wonder whether we take cultural effects too seriously.

Consider what Vasari especially must be like. It is a time of races cleanly seperated. A time where it is very easy to "run with your own race of buffalo rather than side with the herd of bison facing you".

Like china which was closed off for was it thousands of years? In the vasari's case the borders would be closed and racial "survival" the number one instinct. 

What I am saying is if you are at war cultural propaganda is not something that would really have too much effect. Especially once the borders are closed and war is joined. In fact I think any cultural effects should be diminished by war. 

I find it hard to believe that a few radio stations would actually convince a race to change sides. The lines are too black and white.

I can imagine some fools on a very small scale "joining" the enemy but not whole planets.

If the lines were more "grey" I could imagine it a little more. 

Short of actual mind control or enslavement which equates to invasion.

Especially in the Vasari's case I just cannot imagine them listening to some human propaganda and being swayed.

What all of our sci-fi movies assume of course is that alien races will have the same values and ideas at their core as us. 

I guess the system really needs to be fleshed out along with the races to make this clearer.

I mean we are supposedly sending diplomatic ship to vasari homeworlds but really have no idea what their way of thinking, personality etc is like. Its like diplomacy by correspondence.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Destraex, reply 9
I wonder whether we take cultural effects too seriously.

Consider what Vasari especially must be like. It is a time of races cleanly seperated. A time where it is very easy to "run with your own race of buffalo rather than side with the herd of bison facing you".

Like china which was closed off for was it thousands of years? In the vasari's case the borders would be closed and racial "survival" the number one instinct. 

What I am saying is if you are at war cultural propaganda is not something that would really have too much effect.

I find it hard to believe that a few radio stations would actually convince a race to change sides. The lines are too black and white.

I can imagine some fools on a very small scale "joining" the enemy but not whole planets.

If the lines were more "grey" I could imagine it a little more. 

Short of actual mind control or enslavement which equates to invasion.

Especially in the Vasari's case I just cannot imagine them listening to some human propaganda and being swayed.

What all of our sci-fi movies assume of course is that alien races will have the same values and ideas at their core as us. 

I guess the system really needs to be fleshed out along with the races to make this clearer.

You make some good points on the realism end of things, but buffing culture (if it should be done in the first place) is something that should be done for the sake of gameplay.

If Sins were a movie or story or something, you'd be right, but it's a game, in which all features of the game should be useful enough to be seriously considered IMO. (as something other than an afterthought after you've already won)

Reply #11 Top

i think culture should mak your ships fight better than if they were not on a planet under your culture influence, this would add more options for defence and offence

Reply #12 Top

Quoting TEC_commander, reply 11
i think culture should mak your ships fight better than if they were not on a planet under your culture influence, this would add more options for defence and offence

Well, that is what culture does currently, just not by default - and that's the problem.

Reply #13 Top

Each races gets bonuses within culture.  Advent gains shield mitigation, TEC gains antimatter regen, Vasari get weapons... why not more types of bonuses?  If it is "Culture" -as loosely defined as possible so no one can pin down wtf it is- boosts planet morale and can even topple 'governments'.  So why not let culture affect ship production, weapon rof and range, shield regen and amount, hull regen rate, ability cooldown or amplify ability effects, mining rates or trade values.  So much could be done but for the lack of code to support it. 

The Advent Culture Cannon should cause some random suicides or revolts, dump planet allegiance 20% for 3 minutes and generally do more considering what the TEC and Vasari cannons can.

Also, it'd give mods more to work with.

Reply #14 Top

maybe they should make it so that the planets within 3 or 4 phase jumps from your home should be able to have 110% allegiance, anything 5-6 phase jumps away only 80 and everything else max of 50, while your home planet gets 150%max?

Reply #15 Top

Not a fan of this...you can get the same economic effects simple by increasing extractor income or tax rates...and the problem with really high allegiance levels is that it marginalizes culture since it becomes even more difficult to culture flip a planet...

Now, if you start with lower base allegiances, and have culture raise max allegiance by a larger amount, then I think you have a good situation...culture is more important to get, but you still end up with the same resources more or less as vanilla sins after culture is up...

Reply #16 Top

(Srry for the wall of text. The bottom paragraph is more important than the top two, which are just lore speculation)

I think the whole "Loyalist vs. Rebel Advent" thing (and even just plain Advent vs. Advent matches) can be described as two different clashing Unity networks.

They might be the same thing to an outsider, but to an Advent... there are srs differences that make the matter srs bsns.

But personally, I'd like to see culture be more than a colored line marching across a phase lane. It really needs to be better represented than that. Maybe if you zoom in close enough to a planet, you'll hear various transmissions and bits of dialogue that are unique to each faction and their loyalist/rebel sub-faction. It'd be mostly noise, but clear enough to make out a headline or blurb or political maxim if you listen close.


As for the open/closed societies discussion, I think each race is vulnerable to certain kinds of propaganda. And it really isn't directed at the political or military classes of society, but instead to the civilians who aren't really befitting from the war all that much.

For the TEC, the concept of the Unity is probably reinterpreted as a technological advance rather than a religion. Sure, the religious bits do come, but after they've gotten people hooked onto the idea of an "internet that's inside your head." And the Vasari's medical science is pretty appealing too. Plus, their propaganda probably tries to portray their war as a futile and ultimately dangerous endeavor - as they could claim that the time they spend defeating the TEC is time not spent preparing to flee the enemy. That's a legit argument.

For the Advent, there really is nothing more appealing like forgiveness. TEC propaganda is no doubt focused on trying to convince the Advent citizenry how much of a mistake it was to exile them way back when and if they just rejoined their fellow humans, then all would be made well and (after the Vasari are defeated) there'd be a state funded search for the Advent homeworld and every Advent who rejoins the TEC will get a house there. The TEC would probably even tell em they could keep their little Unity thing. As for the Vasari, same message as the TEC, only flavored more on collectivism and working together against a common foe. Big attempt to say that the Vasari migratory fleet is one big happy family, just like the Unity. It'd fly with some people, I'm sure.

For the Vasari, it'd be your classic liberation propaganda campaign. Go watch "The Longest Day" and skip to the part with the French Resistance listening to the radio. Exactly the same for the TEC and Advent, only with different rebel groups. Kinda like the CIA and KGB funding rival freedom fighters during the Cold War, only with the Nazis still around as a mutual foe. Half their day would be fighting the Vasari occupation forces and collaborators, the rest would be spent fighting rival freedom fighters. Yes, humanity is just that predictable.

All in all, each faction is pretty much just as hostile to outside ideas as any other (save the Vasari occupied populations, but you have to wonder what their culture actually looks like after a few generations of imperial rule), so anything that's in their propaganda has to be pretty careful not to step on any toes (so no "LOL EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IN IS WRONG") and really painting their side in a sympathetic light. The most common argument made by any propaganda writer is "We want to be friends, but because of X we're forced to fight this pointless war."


But enough theorizing on the lore.

What really needs to happen is a way for big empires to be politically stable. I mean, like with the TEC. They're technically reuniting various planets who were originally apart of the Trade Order anyway. As such, they really should be seen as the game goes on as the rightful heir to the Trade Order. Sure, when you go multiple TEC players, that's not going to happen, but if it's just you vs. a space nazi, I don't really see how a newly colonized planet would be at 15% allegiance. I mean, it's either you or mean looking aliens at that point. I don't really know what people on this planet are smoking.

And this is true from the perspective of every other faction. They all are capable of being big empires and justifying themselves politically to their populaces. Space is really really big. Everyone is pretty much so far away from each other that distances begin to become irrelevant as time goes on.

A separatist group on Mars would be just as mad at perceived imperialism from Earth as a separatist group in Alpha Centauri.

I'm not saying "get rid of the distance penalty." Oh no. Read the above sentence again. I'm all for it. In fact, I think it should be greater than what it is now at the start of the game, bringing it relevance to the smaller maps. There should be a long line of research, starting in the second tech level, that gives you greater and greater allegiance values farther and father from your capital.

Cause on a multi-system game, it's a big problem for everyone.

And you could play with various unique bonuses for each faction. Like, say, the Vasari might get an allegiance bonus if a Phase Stabilizer is present (cause it'd mean that the Vasari military can easily suppress rebellious activities) or perhaps all desert planets get allegiance bonuses for the Advent. You know, stuff like that.

Allegiance has really always been a mechanic that's completely out of the player's control. Sure, you can relocate your capital, but that just causes trades one low allegiance area for another. There really should be another solution for this.

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Reply #17 Top

I absolutely agree with you that the allegiance system needs some tweaks. I am not sure about what kind of changes would be best though.

Reply #18 Top

What if instead of the planet button that just moves your homeworld/capital, it had multiple levels like the infrastructure upgrades?

The first would be to upgrade a planet to a "provincial capital" and would not increase population (b/c the civilian infrastructure does that), but would increase the maximum allegiance at that planet, The second (and maybe third) could increase maximum allegiance at connected worlds.  The final upgrade would then move the capital like it does currently.

There probably shouldn't be stacking with this scheme though and there could be limitations to how many you have.  This might make it easier to control (and milk) far-flung worlds than with culture stations alone.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1
Yeah, there was a post a while back where we came up a lot of ideas of what could be done to help culture even within the current game engine (I.e. a mod), and I offered to make on to test it, but there wasn't a whole lot of interest.

Edit: This mod now exists, and is here.

 

I'm just noticing your edit today and will check out that mod.