without the exploit he would simply struggle against even the lowest levels of the AI that the game provides.

Well, I read some of the old posts and it seems it was in and out during the beta and eventually left in. It seems to be one of those features that should be toggled by the game host as to whether they want the Z-axis to be part of the gameplay or not. I could see some multi-player groups that like to use it, but it really should be an toggle option since it's used in ICO to subvert several of the games key features.

There's no single reason for using z-axis except for exploits.

For the record, I'd like the feature to be left in single player for movie making (it gets a bit dull if all the ships are too much in the same plane).

Good idea. So yet a third reason for z-axis to exist.

1) Players that want 3d space movement (my interpretation as to why it was left in).

2) Single player movie (or screenshots), especially good for modders.

3) To cheat on ICO using various exploits.

thanks for your opinion master1a, i'm pretty sure that pji has a spherical of influence. meaning that pji doesn't only affect xy axis but also xyz axis. it maybe my fleets where so high up that i hyper jumped from the edge section of the pji's effective area assuming the further distance i was from the pji's gravity well had something to do with it. i'm sure the further you are from pji the weaker the pji will be.

lmao Mecha-Lenin wow your amazing. haha okay here is me i'm mechalin: i'm going to place my mine in front of your fleet or in front of a hyperspace exit point and i would expect your fleet to just move towards all the mine fields i laid out for you so your fleet will be doomed for my fleet to finish off LoL! the funny guy spoke again! so i suppose by using z axis to avoid a mine field is an exploit too huh? you know how stupid you really sound like right now? i mean come on, we are in space and there is no laws of gravity in space meaning space can have slip streams, worm holes, black holes, heavy gravity pull (black holes), awkward heavy/light gravity pull (slip streams). how in the world would a right mind think that you are unable to move up or down in "space" saying its an exploit. i'm sure you have a better brains than nightraid3r (even the name is misspelled) to notice that its a space game.

If you give me one reason a space ship or any object for that matter in outer space isn't allowed to move up or down then i will never use z axis ever again.

Emphasis on game. As a game it has rules that sometime ignore or even violate the laws of physics. In other cases the rules are there to promote balanced game play. Your arguments don't really support your case while others have present reasoned arguments on why it should be removed.  If the exploits were fixed then no one would really care if you wanted to use the z-axis.

Avoiding mines IS an exploit because mines CAN'T be deployed in the Z-Axis.

Humping Starbases IS an exploit because Tec and Advent star bases CAN'T shoot up.

Yeah, it's in the game, but the game wasn't exactly designed with competitive online multiplayer PvP in mind.  I doubt that the developers contemplated that when they added the Z-axis to the engine.  When they decided to allow players to order ships on the Z-axis, as an afterthought, they probably figured some players would enjoy looking at pretty screenshots of the ships in 3D space.  It's pretty clear that the Z-axis wasn't really intended to play a significant role in the game when starbases can't shoot up and when PJIs don't affect it.

As a general policy, we should all agree to avoid intentionally using the Z-axis.

This is a game which was made for the gameplay, not for the realism. Everything else in Sins is built around a 2d universe - the vertical axis is mainly for looks.

Manual control of the z-axis adds nothing but the ability for a ruthless few to exploit the game engine and gain an unfair advantage in ways not intended.

i see your point wrath89 ty! this means that with z axis available, mines would be ineffective, so mine tactics WIN!, with z axis available tec and advent SB LOOSE!, also pji loose.

which is more ruthless, doing the mine tactics or avoiding it?

edit: this means that the devs will have to choose between leaving it as part of the game and making adjustments to all the units that would be affective by it or leave it out and not even bother with it or make some rules of who or when and where to use the z axis

Mine tactic needs considerable skill to implement and only a few flak in the fleet will make this tactic obsolete. If he brings in subverters it takes considerable micro (=skill) to use it and not many people are skilled enough to use it effectively. 

You can avoid it by implementing counters (aka show your skill) not by avoiding it. 

As I said before z axis is part of the game and until some problems with it are fixed or better solutions are found I agree with majority of community that is equal of cheating.

Regarding implementing it for making in-game movies or screenshots its a nice touch nothing more.   

Cilverbug/2-face your posts are heap of immature, low-IQ crap and it amazes why people even try reason with you. Star being exception here.

Mecha, you are the epitome of internet forum users.  You don't know how to argue, so you resort to personal attacks.  I've also noticed that if you get beat by a tactic, you create a forum post to remove the tactic from the game.  How about you just learn how to counter what you see in game?

Z axis is an exploit however so he isn't wrong even if he resorts to name calling.  I have seen worse name-calling and flaming from some of the other DT on here.  When z axis is used intentionally, it is to gain unfair advantage by abusing loopholes in the game design and is therefore an exploit.  It's like the old scuttling of neutral extractors but to a lesser degree.  Its cheating plain and simple.

[_]-Greyfox

I'll just leave this here:

The dev's left it in for a reason, and it's been in the game for almost 4 years now.  If it was an exploit (like scuttling neutrals), they would have fixed it.

EDIT: Also, the reason I personally don't use z-axis is because when you use it in a gravity well, you can't select the planet while zoomed in, which is really annoying (and a bug).  Also, it's pretty rare that I encounter a time when using the z-axis will help me win.

Wow. Just wow. This gives me even more ammunition to not go on ICO. Apart from flaming, trolling, verbal abuse, minidumps, etc, now we've got people who don't even play fair.

Thanks guys. Keep these threads coming. I get a real kick out of watching you make fools out of yourselves. And reading them, of course.

Good day.

Those quotes IIRC were in the context of people complaining Sins was to much 2D and not enough 3D.

Also, star bases and mines were not part Sins at the time.

A possible reason for why z-axis exploits exist could be that a) it's not easy to figure out. so rarely used b) it's been shunned by the ICO community to a large degree where a majority don't use it.

In some ways the anti-z-axis goes a bit too far with players rage quiting because they don't understand the game does indeed use the z-axis and ships will indeed move in the z-axis to avoid targets. I've seen this and the typical z-axis exploit rage quits occur, though rarely, over the last couple of years (though I play much less regularly in the last year or so to know if it's happening more, less or about the same).

This whole argument seems very similar to the service & repair application I work on. We were informed by corporate security that it's not technically fraud when our users exploit holes in the system because the system allows them to do it. Interestingly we call it gaming now when they exploit the system to order more devices than business rules would normally allow. We are in the process of identifying and closing those holes in the system to prevent the exploits from occuring.

What our business clients and us (the developers) have found is it's difficult to think like those who will commit fraud or gaming. Even when it is found a decision must be made if the issue can be cost justified to expend project hours and money to be resolved...

I don't have the time or patience to search for it, but those problems were identified during Entrenchment development, and the dev's basically said that the use of the z-axis was a valid tactic.  I'm not saying I completely agree, but you all need to understand that the existence of the z-axis is deliberate and that it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

I get a real kick out of fools like you who just come on and muddle in affairs that aren't your own just to say you do.  None of us make fools out of ourselves, with the exception of those who lack the ability to form a proper argument.  The forums for any game is a venue for intellectual discourse about a hot topic in the game, and the z-axis is no exception.  If you do not have your input to share, that is fine, and I don't fault you for that, but I fail to see why you need to post a general insult to every person in the thread with no real reason to do so, as like you said, you do not go on ICO, so you are not affected by it.  As a common courtesy, please don't post for the sake of clogging the thread with what could easily be classified as mindless vomit.

Don't be that guy

Shhh

I wasn't 'beat' by z-axis. 2-face lacks skill to even use exploits properly. He used it once to kite my kanraks just a bit longer, but lost his sova anyway. How, you and 2-face are only people in this thread denying z-axis is exploit, and you lack proper arguments. 2-face's level of debate is low enough to be either ignored or dismissed with insults.

I don't see reason why I would just accept z-axis as being legit part of the game. If devs see reasons to keep it, they are not MP balance reasons. I suppose they want to force belief that Sins is true 3D game, which it is not and never will be.

like going eco on the flank vs Auq

lol

I'm not arguing it isn't deliberate, but it's definately not something locked in stone.

By example... 5 months after your post's you quoted which were pre-Entrenchment there is this quote. Obviously at some point they decided to put it back in, possibly during the entrenchment beta's like you said.

I'm not even arguing it should be removed per say, mainly I'd like to see the one glaring exploit against star bases alleviated. I'd also be for game hosts deciding if it should be allowed in the game or not. In some ways it's interesting how much different the MP community is today from 3+ years ago who all seemed to clammor for z-axis behavior of which I saw CliverBug part of to now which generally regards it as cheating.

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June 13, 2008 13:54:48 from  Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

My apologies, I had thought this was a mistake, but apparently it was removed because it was exploitable in multiplayer.   Jamie's answer was the correct one, sorry.

 

If you don't have the balls to play against real players and you want to keep playing against predictable and feckless AI, that's your loss.  Your perception of the problems with online multiplayer PvP are severely overblown.  If you think you're a good Sins player or skilled in any sort of a way, you're wrong.  If you only play against AI, your Sins skill level will always be low and you will have accomplished little with the game.  It's like only getting 30% of the way through an RPG.