Suggestion: Tweaks to Support Cap

Both used less then the Dunov. The devs have been continually improving upon the AI autocast. Can't see why they can't do something like this.

The Antorak should be set to actually DO restore shield points or DO actually damage targeted enemy ships. Right now all it does is shift the target into phase space. When the damage and shield restore is properly implemented it would actually make ths ability a lot more useful.

The Antorak does do this. Though it would be nice if it scaled.

I just ran a small test on this and came to some unfortunate conclusions. I was on Point Blank with no AI using pirate attacks to level up my 2 Dunovs and my Sova. After a bit of this and researching armor/shields, I warped my caps into the pirate planet so they would take damage.

My Sova warped in first and soon the pirates all gathered around it, shooting. Once its shields died I activated Shield Restore autocast on the Dunovs. They both activated at the same time (at level 2, +500 shield points) - but it seems that since the two buffs were applied to the Sova instantaniously, the Sova only received a single +500 even though it should have gotten +1000! If the Dunovs are synchronized with their Shield Restore, one of the Dunovs will be mostly useless!

Another similar problem is just the fact that the abilities automatically activate at the same time once a hurt ship falls below some determined number of shield points below the max. I also had Hoshikos: I noticed that when the Sova dropped to something like 1100 of its 1600 shields, *both* Shield Restores would activate, which would have mostly wasted one of the abilities even if the duplicate buff target bug hadn't existed. And with the Hoshikos, as soon as the Sova started taking a bit of hull damage, once it dropped below some level, the Hoshikos used Repair Drones - at the same time. I had 3 Hoshikos and all 3 of them used Repair Drones on the Sova at once, completely wasting 100 antimatter. So that's another related bug.

The Antorak is right up there with the Dunov as one of the game's most marginal capital ships.  The Rapture is highly underrated and is extraordinarily powerful.  Large Advent fleets should always have one.

Really, autocast is an issue, but the bottom line is that the Dunov's abilities just aren't that strong.  Shield regeneration in particular is one of the least impressive abilities in the game.  The Dunov's EMP is probably the only reason it ever gets built in competitive multiplayer.

A good starting point would be to allow shield regeneration to self-target.  This capital ship has very low combat potential but its abilities demand that it get very close to the enemy in order to be effective, putting itself at great risk at all times.  The Dunov really needs the capacity to defend itself, so I feel self-target is a must on shield regeneration.

Secondly, shield regeneration really needs a secondary effect.  As a single-target ability it doesn't scale effectively once fleets are no longer tiny, but due to having very poor combat potential the Dunov isn't viable early-game, so the ability is already largely obsolete once you have it.  By adding secondary functionality to give it a more diverse effect, it can be applied in more situations.

The Dunov is nice in long AI games where you have a lot of caps and don't like retreating them. Hoshikos can only repair so fast: having 2 Dunovs which can give your other caps +1500 shield points every 11 seconds can be very useful, especially with cultural antimatter upgrades.

Of course, none of this works in competitive games.

Honestly, by that stage anything will work against the AI and I find the Dunov redundant.  The Dunov needs to bring something relevant to the game... and really its EMP is the only thing that fits the bill.  Even the Antorak has some late-game gimmicks at its disposal (increasing the move speed of your entire fleet starts getting very appealing later on)

Give the Advent something that acts opposite the Energy amplification... Suppression -area affect that nerfs enemy weapons within radius.  slower weapon rate of fire & less range.

That's okay that you're not a fan. I have had a very good experience with the Dunov. As Wrath pointed out, two of them can make a world of difference. I've been in several large engagements and the combined recharge of two Dunovs has been nothing short of significant. Having two also helps by using that ability on each other. I have been able to pull off some pretty amazing assaults with a fleet that has a pair of Dunovs in tow. Also, even though one Dunov provides a very small boost, every little helps. It beats the alternative. Though I do agree with you about the EMP being useful. In addition to the shield restore, the EMP ability has proven itself a very valuable asset in certain situations. I'm looking forward to one day evaluating the other empire support caps.

It really depends on what sort of game style you like. I personally hate hate hate losing any ships at all which is why I use caps/Dunovs if I'm TEC, but Darvin is making a good point in that you could probably do anything at that point and still win.

On the other hand, you could play as Vasari and build Skirantras, two level three ships can keep most of my fleet alive in a medium sized engagement.

If you can get the enemy to focus-fire on them, yeah, that'd work, hopefully in combination with Overseers so your caps don't have to retreat.

Really? Perhaps you are referring to MP online only?

I find the Vertigo to be invaluable for it's enhancements to my Halcyon Fleet's SC and for its ability to reduce damage from the attacking fleet. L3 Vertigo offers a net 51% damage reduction from any affected attackers, that's nothing short of phenomenal especially if you can hit a tightly packed group of HC or LRF.

Antorak is certainly less useful but its the only Vasari ship that can interrupt Caps which is useful for stopping channeling such as  Drain Planet, Missile Barrage and stopping super powered ships such as maxed power surge Kortuls and Kols with Finest Hour. Also, Distort Gravity is very useful for breaking through defensive worlds.

I understand. Although the last campaign I fought ended with a very big battle and, while I had more than enough capital ships to deliver a crushing blow, so did they. I probably would have won without the Dunovs, but not without taking some serious losses. In other words, they hit me pretty hard. I'm a fan of anything that can keep my ships alive even for just a little while longer - especially in the late game when I'm dealing with more firepower. On the other hand, you and Darvin have a lot more experience, so you probably lean on other ships and tactics which is good. I'll learn and develop other strategies too, meaning I won't always depend on a pair of Dunovs, but all I can say is that they've served me well, even in the late game, so I'm a strong advocate of having them around.

At that point in the game, against AIs, at least, you should be getting much more income than you should know how to deal with probably, so you could probably develop your fleet to be as large as you like to crush an opposing fleet of any size. Also important is that you'll be able to very easily replace whatever losses you take with more firepower-dealing frigates. If you have enough income and have a larger/better fleet than the enemy to begin with, taking frigate losses is fine when you can replace them - that's the general idea. After all, you're getting income, you might as well use it on building more replacement frigates.

While that's the idea in theory I really really hate seeing my own frigates get blown up, which is why I often go cap-heavy with Dunovs to support, kind of like you.

That makes sense. 

I just had a thought. A self-assessment suggests that I rely heavily on my caps which is something I do in other strategy games (I rely on heavy firepower). I need to diversify my strengths. For my next campaign, I plan to focus less on my caps and more on frigates and cruisers. I'm not against going cap-heavy. I'll still have strategies that involve a strong capital front, but I need to become more familiar with non-capital ships and their different strengths and weaknesses.

Capital ships are not heavy firepower, they are actually relatively low firepower by cost until you've gained many levels.  What capital ships have is a decisiveness factor over frigates.  This makes them quite good against low-firepower enemies, but against high-firepower enemies they get completely steamrolled and killed before you can actually do anything. 

Try a simple LRM/Garda/Hoshiko fleet.  Very cost-effective, lots of damage output.  If you can get an Akkan to level 5 and max out targeting uplink, your LRM's will outrange starbases and at that point there's basically no card (short of massed heavy cruisers) the AI can throw at you.  Convert over to Kodiaks later on if you want to mix things up.  For capital ships, I find an Akkan or Sova opener works well, followed by a Marza to aid in bombardment,  Really for TEC there's not a lot of reason to go above 2-3 caps.  Vasari doesn't make much sense above 4, and Advent (at least without mass transcendance) shouldn't go beyond 6. 

In singleplayer you have more leeway, but in multiplayer it's much harder to earn XP so your capital ships are much lower level, and you'll usually find yourself better off with a handful of high-level caps than many low-level ones.

I was substituting the term heavy ships with heavy firepower. Heavy ships in terms of hull and shield strength (attrition), but also superior firepower (yes, except against higher level caps, but also not against a high number of bomber squads, or a fleet of heavy cruisers) with the added benefit of special abilities. I agree that the level does make a difference. You mentioned using the Marza for bombardment. I agree and have also found it to be a very strong asset in battle. Further, a friend was recently telling me how effective the radiation bomb proved to be against lighter ships.

A cap heavy fleet has worked for me and it is a strategy to consider, but like I said, I need to diversify my strengths, because it's not the only strategy. I like your idea with an LRM/Garda/Hoshiko combination and I will try that in my next campaign (in addition to ideas that Wrath e-mailed me) as well as some of my own ideas. Thanks for the suggestion. 

It works against the AI in the long-term, but the problem I have with this is that the AI just isn't very good in the long-term to begin with, so this really doesn't mean much.

Assuming a 4:1 credit to resource conversion rate, your second capital ship and its crew research cost 7100 credits.  A Javelis LRM costs 560 credits by comparison.  For the price of your level 1 capital ship, you could instead have 12 Javelis, and as that crew research becomes more expensive additional capital ships will compare to more and more Javelis.  As well, the enemy with fewer capital ships still is getting the same amount of XP, so their capital ships will be a higher level.  So long as they don't throw themselves into a protacted battle where capital ships take damage but don't die, they will keep building their frigate count.  On faster game speed, hitting 50 or 60 frigates is pretty easy and 60 Javelis LRM will deal over 600 damage per second.  Even after accounting for mitigation and armor damage reduction and repair, you're still looking at a typical capital ship longevity of less than 30 seconds under fire.  Your only real protection is to try to kill the attacking units quickly to cut their damage output, but if you invested heavily in capital ships and sacrificed your firepower to do so you really don't have the ability to defend against this kind of firepower.

Having 3 or so capital ships is nice if you have a strong supporting fleet as well, and if you're good at micromanaging retreats. If you can lure the enemy into attacking your capital ship(s) rather than your frigates, and if you're good enough to retreat your caps in time when they're under heavy fire, you'll have saved yourself a few frigate losses.

Absolutely, and 2-4 capital ships is what I've always maintained is the sweet spot that balances performance, cost, and XP distribution. 

At the risk of rebuke, I've found that even an Easy AI has been a challenge, but that's probably because I've only been playing for a few months (not solid due to work and other interests). As to the value of a cap heavy force, I still have to disagree (or agree to disagree) in light of the success I've had with them (particularly in the late game).

I've not experienced that, but again, I'm fairly new and still playing at an easy level. My Dunovs have been the reason why I'm able to keep my caps alive. My success so far has involved the following: my capitals inflict damage and draw heat away from my non-capitals, my non-capitals inflict further damage, and longevity is increased by the combined touch of two Dunov support caps and several Hoshikos. My success has also been significantly greater thanks to 50 or more bomber squadrons that I've sent after priority targets (e.g., a strong starbase).

I did like something you said: "For the price of your level 1 capital ship, you could instead have 12 Javelis." That's very true and one more reason why I need to focus on non-capital ships. Not just to better understand them and develop additional strategies, but for cost efficiency. I will experiment with your suggested combo soon. Right now, I'm trying out a method of quicker expansion involving a cap and scout combo that Wrath suggested. So far, it's been very effective, but still evaluating.

 

I eat unfair difficulty AI's for breakfast, so our game experience is worlds apart.

You haven't experienced the true difficulty this game has to offer until you've had 80 LRM frigates or 80 squadrons of bombers all attacking your capital ship.  This comes up a lot more often in multiplayer, and rest assured it fundamentally changes how you play once you've experienced true firepower.

Cool. Well give me time, buddy. I'll try to catch up and hopefully be another good challenge or ally for you. I'm determined to become a better player and hopefully master each empire.

My final thoughts are, I plan to lean on the non-capitals a lot more, but I will still probably have a high number of capitals at my beck and call (even on an unfair difficulty), but we'll see. The next few months of developing new strategies and experimenting at different levels may produce experiences that reinforce my love for capitals or change my mind completely.

I know where you're coming from.  I had to pick up this game, too, at one point.  I've got a more extensive multiplayer background, so I was ready to jump into the multiplayer fray early, and I was still taken aback by focus fire.  The AI deceives you into thinking capital ships are quite tough, then you hit multiplayer and realize there's a very fine line between what is survivable and what is not.